Tell me if I’m wrong. Was not Arizona the last state that voted to make MLK a national holiday? And they only did it because the feds said they would withhold fed money for highways?

Affirmative action should be banned nationwide. It’s state sponsored discrimination against whites and in particular white males.

“Arizonans will vote next year on a proposed state constitutional amendment to generally prohibit state and local governments from discrimination and preferential treatment based on race, ethnicity and sex.”

As a white male, I would LOVE to see an end to preferential treatment based on race, ethnicity, and sex. White, strait, Christian, males continue to get preferrential treatment in countless ways in our society. There are any number of very specific ways that I have received preference in my life based on my race, and assumptions I can make because of my race. We must work to remove the white privilege that is present in America. Then, and only then, would “affirmative action” not be necessary.

Let’s put in this way. You are in the ER and your doctor is a minority.
Do you wonder if they are a doctor because of affirmative action or because of the color of their skin? I don’t care what color their skin is, but I would like to feel assured that they are treating me because they were the best and the brightest. Affirmative action diminishes the hard work of those who earn it and deserve their status. Unfortunately, we never really know who gets there on their own merit or because of AA. Let’s put this to question to rest once and for all. For gosh sakes, it’s 2009. Let those who rightly achieve success, get the respect they deserve.

Okay, but do you look at a white doctor and wonder if they got into school because of a legacy admission?

I am 100% in favor of quotas. I think blacks should have 12% representation in every aspect, organization, business. 12% and NO MORE than 12%. 12% of our colleges ONLY, 12% of the pro sports teams ONLY, 12% of the entertainment industry, 12% of the commercials you see that seem to have a black token face in every commercial. 12% PERIOD! Once they have representation according to their race, we can dispense with all of the set-asides, preferential hiring, hiring for diversity goals, and the rst of the liberal agenda. I am anxious to see blacks represented fairly in this manner. 12%, PERIOD.

How very Progressive of Arizona. To enact a law that states that you CANNOT discriminate based on Race. Isn’t this what MLK wanted in the first place? Hooray equality.

Ten Myths About Affirmative Action
http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm

Affirmitive action is the most racist piece of legislation ever written. It essentially tells an entire group of people that they are too stupid to succeed without assistance from the government. It also degrades the achievements of all person in the group because they are assumed to have all recieved the assistance in achieving their goals. Hiring and admittance based solely upon objective criteria. Not upon skin tone.

We have had this discussion many times before, and yet too many of my fellow whites seem unwilling or unable to comprehend why programs like AA were needed in the first place. Maybe they don’t realize that the end of slavery after the Civil War wasn’t the end of racism. Maybe they are intellectually lazy. I don’t know.

All I do know is that whites as a group received distinct economic and social advantages by the enslavement and subsequent repression of blacks in this country. A repression, let’s remember, that lasted well into the 1960 and even beyond. There are people walking around us today, not even at retirement age, who weren’t allowed to apply for good jobs, weren’t allowed to have new textbooks or attend school in modern buildings. They rode in the back of buses, drank from colored-only fountains, and were told they were no good just because they wre black.

Paul and Bard, I can’t honestly remove myself from what happened so recently and pretend that simple hard work is the answer to all of the problems that were created. Blacks were purposefully given inferior jobs, education, medical care, and so on, for hundreds of years. Families ripped apart on purpose (which is still reflected by the lack of family and community values in black culture today).

Stop and think about it. That isn’t asking too much, is it? Stop and think about the mountain that blacks as a group have to overcome. Sure, some have, and more are doing it everyday. But that doesn’t mean we’ve gotten back to an even field. We honestly aren’t even close yet. These programs aren’t perfect, but something needs to be done to undo years of harm…

What about the Native Americans? Should they not recieve the same AA? How about the Irish, who were oppressed starting in the late 1800’s and lastint well past the abolishment of slavery. Catholics were discriminated against in this country, does that mean they have some “catching up” to do that AA could help with? What about women? What about Homosexuals, they were repressed for many centuries, should they not recieve AA.

As much as I understand that racism went well into the 1960’s….at what point do we get rid of AA? Who decides? Bottom line (and correct me if i’m wrong) AA is a racist piece of legislation….it is based on the color of ones’s skin….how far removed from the African race do you need to be to still recieve benefiets?

It is flawed, and needs to go.

Okay. Lets say we do get rid of affirmative action, the NAACP, UNCF, I would say BET but heck, that is just TV. Are we guarnteed that we will not slip back to pre civil rights again? Can we be sure that things have changed enough that we will be treated fairly?
As for Taxpayers 12% rule. I hear cry’s from whites all the time that the most qualified should get the job. Which I happen to agree with. So, how can limiting the number of minorities be fair? I have no problem if a white person is the best person for the job. Can y’all say the same about a person that is a minority. If that person is hispamic, asian, Native American or black? That if they are the best for the job then it is theirs. Or would you trot out the poor white mans tribulation once again.

I don’t think you can be sure of anything in this world. But I don’t think the NAACP and AA could stop that anyway.
How about a compromise, we keep affirmative action in ex-confederate states (really the only place it is needed) but abolish it in the abolishionist states.

No, spyguy, I don’t and that is my point. Without affirmitive action, that won’t wouldn’t happen. I’ll know that everyone got way they on merit only.

Here’s a thought. What about populations that have a lot of “minorities”; like Saint Louis or Detroit. Would AA be needed in these cities as well? Discuss.

Of course you don’t. No one does. That is the privilege of being white. We can become whatever we want without others assuming that we didn’t earn our place, even if we, in fact, didn’t “earn” our place.

Bard- I have an even better idea. How about we let the southern states seceed and let them have their own laws, and let them decide what sort of society they want, like every other country in the world. You know, rule of the majority? Self-determination? Isn’t that why we fought in Europe twice? Oh, wait, the South tried that once before and got invaded and plundered for asserting their rights as described in the Declaration of Independence. Lets face it, the Feds will always dictate to us, depite what the will of majority might be.

Here we go again. Affirmative action is NOT racist. It was a program, approved by WHITE lawmakers mind you, that was needed to counter-act overt white racism. People, white people, were hiring just based on skin tone. The best and the brightest were not being hired, the best of the whitest were being hired.

There is a very racist assumption shared by many on this blog that AA gets unqualified minorities hired. That is not the case. It gets qualified minorities an opportunity that they were being denied by white employers. To think that an ER doctor who is a minority may have gotten his job because of AA, and is therefore less qualified, borders on complete and utter stupidity. Here is why he may have been hired: Gasp!- he/she might have been more qualified than a white person. Befor AA, this minority may not have been given the chance. Now, he/she has that chance. The fact that we assume minorities are less qualified in the first place shows that we still need AA. Apparently we are not as enlightened as we thougt we were. Our thought process has not changed much since the sixties.

Also, there was a lot of “victim” talk on the last blog. Black people need to stop playing the “victim” card and take responsibility. Fair enough. That seems logical. I am a little dissapointed in my white brothers, though. When the topic of AA comes up, we immediately are the victims. We are being discriminated against. It has to stop. Why de we not feel this same sense of “End Discrimination Now!” for our minority brothers and sisters? That is a little hypocritical.

Anyway, as we all know, white males are in charge of this country, more or less. I think we would agree on that. After all, we are the majority, and majority rules. How in the world though can we stop the white male from discriminating against his own kind? How can we stop the racist practices of the white male against the white male? They are keeping us down! I demand that this stop. White on white discrimination is the gravest danger facing this country. Of course I am being silly. The white male is not a victim, he is not being held down, he is not being dicriminated against. Until white people, white males in particular, stop playing the victim card, race relations will never improve in this country. We say that enough about black people; now it is time to look at ourselves.

The fact is that each state is a member of the United States. This being said the U.S. Constitution is supreme as well as the laws made in pursuance thereof. Arizona being a state in the United States will be expected to abide in the law. This is part of a pattern of sedition the Republican party is spreading in the Southern parts of the United States. It is attempting to disparage the rights of especially democrats. The democrats should take the offensive and remove thousands if not millions of Republicans from the public payroll. These folks are attempting to undermine the government as usual and the law should be upheld. See at this time they have a slim majority on the Supreme Court, and they are attempting to exercise power from there in defiance of the election. This needs to be nipped in the bud the Administration will not be negated by the least representative of the three branches of government. It is Republican stock in trade to undermine the government while agitating for it to whither away. See the Republicans in league as usual with Communists, Socialists, and Royalists there is not a good American among them. We should rid ourselves of this tyranny as should as possible.

Michael, drop the pathetic rhetoric. I’m a Republican. Read my post and see if I fill your description. I know PLENTY of white Dems that echo the “drop AA” and “AA is racism” type talk. Stop being so intellectually lazy and debate the points at hand instead of slipping into indoctrinated mantra mode…

I also think we need to take a different look at AA. I think it harms minorities more than helps. First off, who passed the AA laws? White lawmakers. Who gets all the anger and backlash? Monorities who, lets face it, did not have the ploitical clout to pass this on their own. AA was made to get qualified mionorities hired, but the prevailing beleif is that it leads to the employment of unqualified ones, which I just don’t understand. Because of this thought process, there is much anger directed towards minorities. Additionally, it gives companies a minimum percenatge of minorities to hire. After that quota is met, other qualified minorities could easily be passed over for less qualified white people. We never think of that, though. That is what is great about being white. To many people’s eyes, white=qualified. The others are still being judged by their skin tone. We need to face that fact.

Tim

This is completely off topic, but I always enjoy your posts. They seem well thought out, and always make me think. What I want to ask you is this: You said that you are a republican. Are you disappointed in the party? I usually voted democrat, but I have been going third party because of the contradictions in the democratic party, such as but not limited to, all life is precious, do not execute prisoners (but abortion is okay). I see the same contradictions in the Republican Party. You can not get an abortion (by the way-we are cutting social programs, and we will not teach you how to not have that unwanted baby).

It almost seems that they are in league together, just to keep the masses apart. Sorry to get off topic, but I am curious to hear what you think, and this is the way to get a hold of you.

Mullarky,
This country was founded on state’s rights. It was founded to have a small federal government and to let the states govern themselves, as long as they abide by the consitution. Saying that republican’s are trying to go around and have the states govern themselves is in my mind a good thing. Let the states decided what they want to do. If you are in a state that does something you don’t like. You are free to leave that state and go live in one that is more in line with your own thinking. If you don’t think you should have to move and that the state should just do what you want to do, then you need a swift kick in the pants to maybe jog your memory about how this country was founded.

I have never seen such a sickening outpouring of white guilt in my life. Spyguy, why not quit your job so that a minority can have it, sell your house for pennies on the dollar to some victim of discrimination and withdraw your retirement fund and donate it to the NAACP? That is, if you have a job, a house and a retirement fund and are not just a college kid still living at home with Mommy and Daddy. Some of the most admired and influential people in America - even the president of the United States - are minorities. Quit believing the lie the public schools and state universities keep perpetuating based on our country’s past injustices and live in the present. That is, unless you are having a joke on us. It must be that, because no human sponge could be absorbant enough to soak up the volume of propaganda you apparently have been steeped in.

you simply can’t legislate morality, racist or otherwise. Companies want the most qualified candidate no matter what their skin tone may be. Companies that overlook qualified minorities for a simple “he’s white, so must be qualified” won’t last long. I doubt this practice happens on any organizational level, if it ever does happen (which I doubt), it is due to the racism of the hiring manager.

Joe - It’s interesting that you would assume that I am either an employed homeowner and/or a college-educated person (I know you meant the Mommy and Daddy comment as an insult, but whatever). All you know about me (from what I have stated) is that I am white and that I am male. From that, you extrapolated those two choices, both of which are pretty positive scenarios for an individual. It is very easy to associate employed, homeowner, college educated with white and male. That’s white privilege. Could you honestly make the same assumptions if you knew I was black and male?

I think they should have AA for women, then for seniors, both male and female. If you are older, try to get a job - doesn’t matter how qualified you are, or how competent, the only thing that matters when a male is doing the hiring is whether you are ‘eye candy’! You can be dumb as a box of hammers but if you have those ‘extra’s” then you get the job. And, female’s, still on the low rung of the ladder in income, when most women are the brains behind the guy up front. The ladies keep him current, on time, pay his bills, type his correspondence, file his documents, etc.which he acts the big cheese, however, if the little lady wasn’t there, those tasks would probably never get accomplished! Yet the gals are looked on an an inferior gender! So, AA effects more than just blacks! Discrimination effects ALL of us at one time or another. It’s only the black part that gets talked about over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over,,,etc. Time to stop, smell the roses, and do what you gotta do to fit into this world with the rest of the population! There, ‘ve counted to three, and spoke my piece!

Absolutely, I could, spyguy. Most people are employed. (YOU aren’t stereotypically suggesting unemployment equates with non-white, are you?)Being a homeowner is no longer the American dream, it is pretty common (thanks to predatory lending practices that put our economy in the tank). And college enrollment is at an all-time high (even though some might do better in a trade school or by joining the military) as are student-loan defaults. It didn’t take much “extrapolation” to assume that you, and most who comment here, have a job, a home and some college. It sounds to me as if you’ve never met any minorities in the real world and labor under the myth that most non-white people are poor, uneducated street folks. That’s white guilt and it’s insulting. One assumption I do make about you is that you are college “educated.” Real life experience would never teach you such a hopelessly unbalanced view; it takes a university to do that. I’ll go one further: You are pursuing a B.A. in political science and hoping to get into law school afterward? Am I right? - - -And if I told you I am black (whether it’s true or not, I leave you to guess)would it change your perspective?

Sorry spyguy, but affirmative action is racist. I am white and male and you probably will presume that I got where I am because of those two attributes. That would be horribly incorrect. I had to work hard and overcome the injustices of affirmative action in order to succeed. I had to work my way over some very incompetent minorities who got their positions handed to them because of their race. I have also worked along side and for some very competent minorities. Those people got where they were and stayed there based on their merits.

Hooray for Arizona. Hopefully, Missouri gets some sense and stops this racist policy as well.

At least, spyguy, you are supposedly thinking for yourself and are not brain washed by the Democrat machine.

Taxpayer - can’t wait until the NBA has to have affirmative action for whites on the teams. How would only 12% blacks work for them? Bottom line in sports, the best people make the team, just the way it should be in anything else, not based on color numbers.

Didn’t Ward Connerly make a similar attempt in Missouri a couple years ago? The St. Louis American did a piece about Connerly kicking off the campaign with a convicted felon by his side, but I can’t find it in their archives.

Joe - (sigh) You missed my point completely. You, in the course of your posts, have made any number of assumptions about me, on the basis of knowing only 3 things about me : my race, my sex, and (admittedly, I missed this one) that I post on these blogs. And, really, you only know one of those for sure, that I post. So, your assumptions are either tainted by race, by sex, or by knowledge of access to computing/internet equipment. Which is it? I don’t assume anything about you from your statements, other than you seem passionately committed to your viewpoint.

Think

Again this has to be said: Affirmative Action is NOT, I repeat, NOT racist. It was a RESPONSE to white racism. Its intent was not to harm, injure, or opress. Why is this so hard to understand?

I have heard the white, “I had to overcome the injustice of AA” argument, and it is ridiculous. Who was being racist towards you? Do you think the white lawmakers who passed AA are being racist towards you? White people are superior to white people? That argument makes absolutely no sense. Maybe these monority people who are promoted above us, or hired over us are more qualified. Maybe they are not, but the interview better. At least with AA, we get the chance to find out.

Paull

Are you really calling AA the most “racist” piece of legislation ever written? That is insane. What about laws passed in the 1890’s requiring literacy tests and poll taxes when registering to vote? Black people were kept out of schools and jobs, so it was tough to read and tough to pay. Or what about the ex-confederate states, by 1910, passing the Jim Crow laws that segregated black people from every aspect of white life, from schools, to buses, to water fountains. I could go on and on. I think you need to get a little perspective.

gov

Thanks for the links to the articles you looked at. I read them, and they were very interesting. All i saw though was the mention of money. i did not catch anything about releasing convicted criminals. Anyway, they were very interesting. Thanks for sharing them. i still think, if done right, reparations could go a long way to heal the racial divide. I guess I do have to agree with you that a quick-fix payout will not work. i like my idea better. it will take longer, but it could work. If I ever run for office, i would have you as an adviser.

perhaps you are right clyde, affirmative action may not be quite racist, although many black racists support it. It is racial discrimination and is all about hiring someone because of their race, not because of their ability.

Yes, I did have to overcome aa to get where I am today. That is a truth that many others have also had to cope with. Perhaps we will see an apology from congress on the harm that they have caused due to this racially discriminating policy.

Yes Clyde I am calling it the most racist piece of legislation ever written. Because while the legislation you talk about was intended to keep a race in their place it didn’t assume you were stupid. Affirmitive Action assumes that you cannot compete mentally on a level playing ground with whites. It assumes that you need an artificial boost in order to get into school or get a job. It assumes you are stupid. And we both know that you are not stupid.

Apparently none of you have ever heard of racism against whites. My daughter in her jr. year of high school with straight A’s was told that she was the lowest rung on the totem pole of college admissions and it would be harder for her than any other group to get into a good college. I suppose all of you AA supporters think that is fair. College apps should not have names or ethic questions, just a number.

Paull

I see where you are coming from on this. However, AA was not written based on the assumption that minorities were stupid, inferior, or unqualified. It was based on the fact that minorities were intelligent, capable, and qualified, and were not being hired by white employers because of their skin tone. it was not in response to minority inferiority, it was based on white folks purposely not hiring minorities based soley on their race.

Think

There are many capable minroity and white people out there. If employers do their due diligence in the hiring process, it would be easy to select qualified minority applicants. I concede to you that all minorities, like all white people, are not always qualified for the job they are hired for. This is the problem of the employer. He can’t pick low hanging fruit just to fill a quota (sorry for the cardinal management language). That is the problem with AA maybe. Instead of hiring the right minority (which is out there) they hire any to fill the mandated need.

PS Paull

The legislation I mentioned did not assume people were stupid, correct you are. It assumed they were less than human. That is much worse.

Centrist

Your daughter does not need to worry. Colleges and universities give full rides to straight A students. Whoever told your daughter that ( I assume it was a counselor/adminstrator from her school) is full of it. Tell her some nut named clyde on a weird blog was a solid c- student in high school and was able to attend Saint Louis University. They did not pay for anything because I was a c- student, but she will be doing just fine if she keeps it up.

I was told by a manager once at a telecommunications company (unofficially so he did not get in trouble) that I was passed over for a promotion because the company needed to add more minorities. Maybe I was unqualified compared to who they hired, who knows, but I wasn’t given a chance due to my race and gender. Sound Familiar?

AA is a racist legislation by definition. The question and argument seems to be whether or not it is necessary racism.

Larry

racism, as defined by Webster’s: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

Another dictionary says: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one race is superior and has the right to rule others; hatred or intolerance of another race or races.

Nowhere is AA mentioned because, say it all together, AA is NOT RACIST! AA does not state that white people are inferior, that minorities are superior, and it sure has heck does not try to control or rule white people as a collective group. It tries to get qualified minority candidates jobs that they were not given a chance of because of the color of their skin. If white employers would have hired qualified monority workers instead of passing over them for this reason, we would not have AA. Racial segregation is racist. Slavery was racist. Lynching was racist. The KKK was racist. The Holocost was racist, AA is not racist. Say its unfair if you want, that would be more logical. But don’t disrespect the plight, past and present, of victims of racism by comparing this RESPONSE to racism racist. It is spitting in the face of real people who have faced real racism.

It is understandable what some white folk think about this. The playing field is a lot more level now than it was 40 years ago. And there has been some black folk using AA to their advantage. People who were not qualified to pick up dog poop got some great jobs. Being a government worker, believe me, I have seen it.
At the same time, I have also seen whites that did not deserve those jobs. But then again, that is government work, what do you expect!
I wish jobs were given only to those truly qualified for them, things would sure work a lot smoother.
Now the question I have. Has affirmative action outlived its usefullness? I hope so, but am not sure. If we end it today will we go back to the way it used to be? Where only certain people get hired no matter what? I hope not. I think we have grown enough as a society that this would not happen. But I am just not sure.

AA, no matter how you slice it is unfair to the opposite - the only reason a person should be hired is because they are qualified to do that job - not because of any gov. program, not because they ‘know someone’ in the business like at the court houses in ST.LOUIS. There isn’t a court room clerk there that has gotten their job because they were qualified! It is ALL because some got if for them - all politics, or they slept with some one. How do I know? Because I worked downa there and saw it for myself! All AA does in put a person into a position that they can’t perform in..then when they get fired they start screaming ‘racism’!!!! No, you are fired because you cannot do your job!!! It is unfair, has ALWAYS been unfair, and if you want a job fairly, then do the home work necessary to get hired, like learning about the company, dressing the part, have a hair cut that is professional, not a fad or the ‘coolest’, etc. Leave the gold at home, bring proper documents, references, resume’s, cover letters, etc. Go out an apply just like the rest of us do - you are NOT entitled to special treatment!!!

I am sure that there are AA hires that were not qualified, or did not work out. I am sure there are white hires that are not qualified or do not work out. That is life. But there is an inherent misunderstanding of AA by some people on this blog. If a white guy gets hired, and he is not qualified, then all of the white working force does not suffer as a result. He does not represent white people as a whole, as he shouldnt. It seems people bring up an individual instance of a minority AA hire that was not qualified, and use that example to condemn the performance of all minorities. White people are not responsible for the individual nuts in there race, but it seems that one bad apple ruins the whole minority bunch. You cna not judge a group of people based on individuals, but we are doing that on this blog. AA does not give special treatment, it give minorities the opportunities that we white folk, judging by what is said on this blog, take for granted.

Arizona state senator Rios makes th best case for the amendment by statingthat some preferences are still needed. Guess who gets to decide just who needs the preferences? It reminds me of a training course at my company re discrimination in the workplace. The materials stressed that some “groups” were “more protected” under the law than others. So much for equal protection.

Clyde:
You,as all other members of the minority race, take everything that happens to ONE person, absorb that failure as your own, and then start yelling ‘the entire race is being discriminated against’. NOT SO!!! You take what happens when a black person is fired, that it then makes ALL blacks look bad! You couldn’t be more wrong and incorrect. YOUR imagination has gone rampart, all of you that think that way. The entire race doesn’t work at that job! So, it cannot be a possibility that the entire race is blamed because of one black persons failure to do a job they were hired to do! Apparently, the black race really thinks of themselves as perpetual victims! I do believe THAT BELIEF is your downfall! How can you improve yourselves if you constantly think you are going to be a victim, then if you are turned away you imeediately assume they don’t like you because of your color! That is ignorant, a ‘poor lil ole me’ attitutde, and believing all the bull you’ve been taught all your life about being the downtrodden. You are only downtrodden IF you don’t take what is available to you, use it to you BENEFIT, and doing what you are supposed to do, what is expected of you to do, and live your life feeling positive about yourself. If you think you are not worthwhile, then others will think the same thing. You see, making yourself a victim projects onto other people! It’s a bad negative for you, but you’ve created that attitude all by yourself! So, you create your own environment - no one else. It’s pathetic to think that through AA is the only way you can get a job - that’s just an excuse and being lazy!

Spyguy - I don’t think I missed your point, and I did answer your question (i.e. could I assume you were employed, college-educated and with a roof over you head if I thought you were black), though I guess not to your satisfaction. Your point would seem to be that non-white persons (presumably because of institutionalized racism you believe exists in society) cannot prosper in America to the degree white persons (esp. white men) can because of the “privilege” they have. Your secondary, implicit point (whether you realize you are making it or not) is that the choices these non-white persons make in their lives cannot be factored into the equation of their success or lack thereof. . . .And I didn’t make any assumption about your “race” or sex. You stated you are a white male, I take you at your word. When I put the question as to my skin color into play, I did so with a qualifying wink/nod. (You really shouldn’t use the term “race” when you are referring to skin color, spyguy. As Ivan Van Sertima said when he spoke at Saint Louis U. more than 16 years ago, “there is only one race - homo sapiens.”)

Purdy

My imagination is not running away. White people generalize about black people, plain and simple. People on this blog assume that white people are inherently more qualified than minorities are. They speak of ONE example of a poor AA hire, and use that brush to paint the whole program as unfair and (verry incorrectly) racist.

I have seen many white people playing the victim on this blog, both on this topic and previous ones. Yet you say, “The black race race really thinks of themselves as perpetual victims”. Well, white people play the victim card on this very blog, you have to see it. So are you suggesting because of these few that the entire white race sees themselves as perpetual victims? No, because a few white people do not represent the whole. But, again, based on a few black people, you paint them all with that broad brush. You proved my point.

Also, you say it is “pathetic” that you think the only way to get a job is through AA. What is pathetic Purdy, is that AA was needed because qualified, competent minorities could not get a job because white people would not hire them. They were qualified and capable, and white people REFUSED to hire them. We need to lose the idiotic assumption that white people were willing to hire the most capable person. They were willing to hire the most capable white person. You can’t keep telling black people to take advantage of the opportunities in front of them, when those opportunities are not really there. Before AA was here, those opportunities were not. I am white, so it is hard for me to admit this, but AA was put into place because white people simply were not trustworthy enough in their treatment of minorities, plain and simple.

Clyde, sorry I didn’t answer this sooner.

Yes, I have been dissatisfied with the GOP. I am more of a classic conservative who likes limited government and people to keep their nose out of my business. Lately my party looks more like Dems in the way they have been spending money. While I don’t think George W was the complete failure that a lot of people do, I don’t think he was great either.

It’s funny you mentioned the contradiction in your party about prison executions and abortion. My party has the exact opposite contradiction, and it bugs me as well.

They say the older you get the more cynical you get. I think that is becoming true of me. Too often the actions of the elected officials seem to have no useful purpose. I share your frustrations.

Clyde, I did not prove your point, you proved mine! And, this could be argued day in and day out and no one gives up their position. Consequently, it won’t be solved! If you dig your heels in and declare that no matter what, you are right, and then refuse to acknowledge anothers idea or comment, then its hopeless. Therefore, AA stinks and should be abolished! With all the alledged progress blacks and other minorites have made, AA isn’t necessary any longer. Nuf said!

purdy

I did not prove your point, you proved mine! AA is still needed. So take your ball and go home. I’m rubber, your glue….sorry I am just messing with you purdy. I am sorry you feel that way about our disussion. It was very interesting. Perhaps you won’t change your thinking, and neither will I. I guess we did not sell our points to each other well enough. It is always satisfying to hear an opposing viewpoint. Even if its wrong and I am so right. Again, just kidding. Not really.

Tim

I do wish there was a viable third party candidate out there. It seems like the two party system is just choking the life out of this country. The two parties are so diametrically opposite that it seems like it is on purpose. At least people on this blog have convictions, even if I don,t agree with them. Politicians today seem to have no ideals or beliefs. I am too young to feel this cynical, Tim. It worries me. Thanks for replying, I was glad to hear from you.

Clyde: if I said what I really wanted to I would get kicked off this blog! Therefore, I will say this: all minorities have the same opportunity as any ‘priviledged’ white male/female! But, if they are too lazy to take advantage of those opportunites, or just want a free ride instead, then AA is a wanted by them because its a means to getting a job they haven’t worked for or deserve, i.e,, the STL fire department is a perfect example! AA provides a way to obtain something you are NOT entitled to in the legitimate sense of the word - you have NOT expended the time and energy to earn what you think you deserve without the expected efforts that are demanded by others that do NOT use AA to get a position, but do it the old fashioned way, they EARN IT! I don’t respect ANYONE that is ‘given’ a job because of their color! They will not have the respect of anyone else, but will be resented instead! And, if whites don’t hire you because of your being black, etc. then search yourselves to think about WHY that attitude exists? Maybe that attitude is something that YOU HAVE CREATED for yourselves by your actions and deeds. You are judged by your environment, actions, LOOKS, APPEARANCE, etc. and if you appear non-professional, unlearned, no experience or knowledge, but do have fancy braids, gold teeth, funky dress, negative body language,or sloppy, unshaven, no hair cut, clothes are soiled, and so forth, then you are going to be judged accordingly! And, if you don’t want to do the needed work and studying, then you don’t deserve it! Bottom line! I’ve counted to three and said my piece!

Clyde: there are none so blind as those that refuse to see!

Purdy

I am open to other points of view. You are coming off very closed-minded. I am not saying AA is perfect. It is not. But it is necessary (because of white racism) and it is not racist (it does not attempt to control or degrade white people). You have a very stereotypical view of black people. Not all have braids, gold teeth, are unlearned, and wear clothes that are “soiled”. You seemed to have taken the stereotypes out there and applied them to all blacks.

And again, you make the poor assumption that people who get jobs through AA are lazy, unqualified, or undeserving. That is not the case. Minorities tried to earn things, but white employers would not let them. So, as a result, we have AA. Perfect or not, it is white people’s fault that it is out there. This is one of those opportunities that minorities can take advantage of. Isn’t that what you want them to do? And like I said , the reason that that AA opportunity is out there is because of white employers. If they would have been fair in hiring, it would not have come to this.

I was waiting for someone to bring up the fire department, and that is an excellent point , Purdy. However, scoring well on a test does not equate to success in a job. No one should be promoted based on that, but if that is the only criteria, then so be it. But, as a teacher, I have seen many educators ACE their certification tests, but flop miserably on the job.

Also Purdy, look at your last post. Learn it, love it, live it.

Clyde: If I had bet on your response I would won about 1 billion bucks that you would do exactly as I thought you would BECAUSE I MIXED negative habits from BOTH whites and blacks, and YOU applied them ALL to blacks! Typical response by a black wanting to be the victim, a professional victim! Sorry, kiddo, but I set you up and you fell for it, hook, line and sinker!
But, that was a no brainer for me because I knew exactly how you would respond - because I knew you would not THINK about what I had posted, but would take on on the ’surface’ and leap from the bridge at that point! I, having worked for the city of St. Louis, SAW, HEARD, EXPERIENCED, the placement of minorites into positions that they could not, in a dozen years, perform, get fired and then start yelling it was because of their color! NEVER, would anyone of them admit it was because they were not qualified for that job, but got in only through politics, AA!!!!!, but never because they earned it, had experience, and knew how to do the job!
I don’t know how much you know or do that part of hiring called ‘interviewing’, but it is apparent early on whether people are knowledgable, professional, etc. and can do that job, and it is apparent early on that a person CANNOT do that job - so, if anyone, no matter the color, wants to play on a level field where all things are equal, then all of them can apply and suffer the same criteria demanded of ALL, not just a few, unqualifed individuals being placed into a position they are going to fail in! It costs about $27,000 to train an totally untrained person to do a professional job adequality. Can you tell me that a person that has not finished high school, much less has any college, will be capable as another that HAS completed those requirements, yet thinks they are entitled to that sme job the other is applying for because of his/her color? That is hogwash!!!

Purdy

I am insulted. Of course I read your response and thought about it. I did not just fly off the handle, jump off the bridge, and say the first thing off the top of my head. Wow, you REALLY got me big guy. You mentioned all those stereotypes (the braids, the gold teeth, unlearned) all in reference to monorities and AA, so of course I am not going to mention anything about white people. They have braids, soiled clothes, etc. also, any race does. But we are talking about minorities and AA.

I think you are so embarrased by your ignorant tirade you come back with a lame post about how you “got” me. Well, I guess the joke is on me Purdy. You sure are some clever trickster. And i did not aplly any of those stereotypes to anybody Purdy, you did. I was just trying to explain to you the need for AA because, apparently, it is too hard for you to understand. Maybe I could post some pictures on here for you.

PS- I am not a black guy Purdy, I am as white as snow. I do not have to play the victim, because being white does have its privileges.

When will Blacks wake up and realize they have been subjegated by the Democrat Party?
http://theblacksphere.net/site/

for EJRohert, that should be “subjugated.” Sorry!

Clyde: guess you are going to take your marbles and go home now! Boo hoo! I LOVE looking at pictures, and yep, I knew you were white- so what - you still applied all the negs to blacks! I live in an area where there are tons of mixed neighborhoods - and believe it, it is different in the streets! You can tell immediately, without even seeing the folks, who lives in that area.
AA - what a subject. No matter what, its time to do away with it - there has been enuf already and it has served its purpose and time to be GONE!! GONE! You can’t cut the mustard, you won’t get the job, simple, no matter what color or gender! Level field for ALL!! ALL must meet the same tests, and if blacks are looked upon in a negative manner they should ask themselves “why’, and go about solving those problems - they gotta do it for themselves - and we can’t help! Their choice!!! Your life is what you make it!!! Go about making it a positive instead of a negative just to get attention! As you now know, it doesn’t work!

Purdy - You are not going to change Clyde’s mind or anyone else’s mind who chooses to believe as they believe. Don’t have a stroke over it.
Just realize they are fundamentalist in their beliefs, and you cannot argue with a fundamentalist. Just as a fundamentalist Christian believes the world was created in seven days, clyde, spyguy and others like them believe racism is still raging across the country and non-white people cannot make it unless they are given special assistance. They accept this as fact without proof, and they are cut to their souls at the mere suggestion they could be mistaken. Don’t waste your time, they are just getting you upset.

Purdy

I am not going anywhere, no boo-hoo from me. Again, you brought up the stereotypes, not me. And guess what, kiddo, I am not buying the fact you put in white stereotypes to trick me. We are on a blog about race, talking about minorities and AA. We are discussing the fairness of AA, as it applies to minorities. That being said, we do have one fundamental difference that keeps us spinning in our tracks. I think AA is necessary, you do not. I guess we must agree to disagree. I read Joe L’s post, and he seemed to think you were getting upset. I do not know if you were, but I wasn’t. If you did get upset, that was not my intent. I liked your posts back because they were a little spicier than usual. Anyway, I am sure we will meet again on this topic. AA is necessary, and i am sure we will discuss this again.

Joe L

I am far from a fundementalist my friend. I have often changed my point of view through discussion and thought. And I do not think that racism is raging across the country, at least not in the traditional sense. There is proof that institutional racism is still blocking minority progress in the present day, however. You not being a fundementalist, I am sure if given said proof, you would change your thinking on the matter.

Joe, thanks for your concern but, seriously, I’m not at all upset. If I were I’d just vacate the area as been too insipid for me to continue with it. I like taking on a personality that is always looking for ways ‘out’ that give a person unworthy of a job, or promotion, unfair and unequal opportunities unearned - me, I’m just the opposite. If you don’t have the intelligence, the ability, the past experience (if required) to tackle a position because you dropped out of school, wanted to be out ‘doin your thing’ instead of learning to further enhance yourself that would make you a more valuable employee, then I don’t think you deserve that job! Simple! Again, life is what you make it and if you think its smarter to be out standing on the corners, or laying around cause you didn’t want to finish school, or don’t make the effort to learn anything, then I have absolutely no sympathy for you AT ALL. Too many years have gone by since slavery - there are no victims alive today or for years and years, and their descendants did not suffer any financial loss because of it, or any other loss except the excuses they use to get something they haven’t earned! I don’t think I’m entitled to have tests ’slanted’ in my favor in order for me to pass it when questions asked on tests that are generalized should be answered easily if one studies and learns! The ones that take the tests and passes have done exactly that, studied and learned, so why should YOU be any different? And, on that same token I firmly believe that no-one should be given a job they haven’t the knowledge, experience, ability, etc. for, just because of some rinky-dink government program called Affirmative Action - I see nothing affirmative about it! It just means that out of x-number of employees I have to hire x-number of untrained, incapable people that I will end up firing in the long run, so its a waste of time and money and production in order to fill positions with people unable to perform adequately! I don’t care if you are striped like a Zebra - if you can’t do the job is the bottom line - AA is tired, useless, unneeded, and discriminatory! Get over it!!! I must admit Joe L., you are absolutely correct - again, there are none so blind as those that refuse to see…was that Shakie boy? Or who?

Clyde, To tell the truth I have not seen any institutionalized racism in years. Oh, I have run into racists but just individuals. Few and far between thankfully.
I have to agree with Purdy on one main thing. If you are not qualified for the job, you do not get the job. Taking tests that are supposedly slanted towards your culture should be seen as an insult. It makes it look as if the testers think a minority testee is stupid. Dang man, I want a firefighter or cop or a grunt that knows what the heck they are doing! I do not know how you would even slant the test for any of those positions, let alone a doctor or nurse.
We now have the same oppurtunitys as anyone. I am becoming more and more convinced that Affirmative action has run its course. My friends that have the same skin tone that I have feel the same way. It has become a point of contention between whites and blacks. Lets try getting rid of it for a while. If it turns out I am wrong and we go back to the old ways we can reinstate it. I will bet 20 bucks nothing will change. It has served its purpose.
Heya Purdy. Did you get a hold of anyone at Scott? You might want to try the federal building downtown also. As much money as Obama is throwing around there might actually be some federal jobs opening up.

Hey TFranklin - yeah, I did look at their website but they didn’t have anything right up my alley yet, and the ones they did have that I could qualify for in another field they wanted me to commit to a ’subscription’ and frankly the price is not cost effective right now, plus, I looked at the distance between me and the base and its well over an hour away, but if push came to shove I guess that is a possibility. I keep looking but other places as well. Did get a couple of responses from my resume and went on one interview on Wed. Will find out next week what decision they’ve made. Thanks for asking!
You are correct in that AA has run its course and needs to be vacated ASAP. Lets try getting a job on your own merits…Clyde means well, he just has a misconception of what is going on in the world around him, and is obviously talking with the wrong bunch of people that continue to harangue about racism. There will always be some that will continue to feel the way they feel about the opposite race, and this exists on BOTH sides of the fence, as YOU well know. Feeling negative about the ’other’ race is always going to be there, and I don’t believe it will ever be completely over. For that to happen, lots of things have to stop happening, so that a reputation can be healed and changed, and to change from what we automatically expect to happen, to began thinking something positive is going to happen instead. But for that to occur, that something positive will actually have to happen so that folks can actually SEE it as a beginning. What are those possibilities? From 1 to 10, what are the chances, 10 being the most probable and possible.
Thanks again, TF, I’ll keep looking over there!

You know, I see it as a ten. I think the bulk of us know what is important,a persons character. We know what we have to do to fix the percieved problem. Nothing. Just take what we are at face value. As much as you and I have argued, I bet if we were at a bar having a beer and burger, we would not have to many differences.
Hope it all works out for you as far as work. I will keep my fingers crossed. Maybe my eyes also?

TF - argue? I think probably ‘debate’ but, nah, I’m not gonna argue with you - I do know who you are and having a burger and a beer would be rightous fun and a good time. Ya see, it kinda works like this - who a person appears to be on the surface is not always what is true and factual when the chips are down. For example: I had a friend for over 45 years that I thought was my best friend - BUT, when the test was made they bailed so fast it would make your head spin! Fair weather friend and not true at all. They were a phony, pure and simple and just put the best foot forward to gain what they wanted from you. My son had a girlfriend that acted like she was the sweetest thing possible going out there - but look below the surface she was just ‘learning’ what my son was through me, and who his family was and didn’t mean a word of it. They broke up for a bit, but finally they got back together and she started acting like a regular human being…So, in my opinion, race works sorta like that, too. Be true to yourselves and to others - let them see who you really are and then they can judge you on your own merits instead of what & who you want them to think you are - be real. I think if more folks acted ‘true’ it might change some minds towards each other - of course, the suspicion would have to be tempered somewhat - because both races are suspicious of each other, big time. Maybe it would be a beginning of joining hands across the table.

End Affirmative Action now. White Americans elected a black president. Plus the Supreme Court ruled this week white firefighters who were smart should be promoted.