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11.08.2007 3:12 pm

Herzog, Southworth Up for Hall’s Improved Vet Vote

St. Louis Post-Dispatch

TOWER GROVE — The National Baseball Hall of Fame’s ballot for its Veterans Committee was announced this afternoon, and the names on the ballot are only slightly more notable than the names of the voters who receive the ballot.

Cardinal managers Whitey Herzog and Billy Southworth are on the ballot.

Bob Gibson, for example, is on a select committee that gets to vote on that ballot.

The ballot hints at how the Hall is trying to inspire the Veterans Committee — which has declined to elect an inductee the last several seasons — to honor the deserving.

If you recall, during this year’s Hall of Fame induction weekend — or the Great Hummel Bash, as we call it — the Hall  of Fame altered its approach to  its veterans committee ballots. No longer would  the ballots be voted on by a huge pool of voters.  The voters would be split off into special committees to  focus on specific areas of the ballot. There would be a committee of voters for Managers/Umpires and there would be a committee of voters for Executives … and so on.

The press release that came out today explains the new procedure:

At its July meeting, the Hall of Fame Board of Directors voted to restructure the Committee on Baseball Veterans and its procedures for electing long-retired players, managers, umpires and executives.  …

The Baseball Hall of Fame Committee on Baseball Veterans now has four ballots. The Managers/Umpires ballot and the Executive ballot are considered every other year starting with the 2008 Induction year. Players whose careers spanned a period beginning in 1943 will be considered every other year starting with the 2009 Induction year. Players whose careers began before 1943 will be considered every five years, beginning with the 2009 Induction year.

 

All Hall of Fame members will vote on 1943-and-beyond players in late 2008 for the 2009 Induction year. A special 12-member committee, yet to be appointed, will vote on players whose careers began to prior to 1943, at the Winter Meetings in December 2008 for the 2009 Induction year. Ballots for both the pre-1943 and 1943-and-beyond elections will be crafted and released in Fall 2008.Our own Rick Hummel, a Hall of Famer,  was a member of the committee that put together the ballot and he’s a voter on the Executive Committee. He and 10 other writers form the BBWAA Historical Overview committee which works to ensure deserving baseball men and women are not overlooked for Hall of Fame induction.

Our own , a Hall of Famer,was a member of the committee that put together the ballot and he’s a voter on the Executive Committee. He and 10 other writers form the BBWAA Historical Overview committee which works to ensure deserving baseball men and women are not overlooked for Hall of Fame induction.The 10 managers and umpires eligible for election into the Hall of Fame in 2008 are:

  • Whitey Herzog, manager
  • Davey Johnson, manager
  • Billy Martin, manager
  • Gene Mauch, manager
  • Danny Murtaugh, manager
  • Billy Southworth, manager
  • Dick Williams, manager
  • Doug Harvey, umpire
  • Hank O’Day, umpire
  • Cy Rigler, umpire

Any candidate who receives 75 percent of the vote will be inducted into the Hall of Fame during the July 2008 ceremonies. I imagine everyone who has read this far can make a compelling case for Herzog, and Southworth deserves the same passionate advocacy from Cardinals fans. I could explain why, but Mike Smith, our online sports editor, has made the case before and I’m going to invite him to make the case again.

(Hopefully he’ll write that up below.)

The 16-person committee that will vote on the award will be: Hall of Famers Hank Aaron, Jim Bunning, Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, Al Kaline, Tom Lasorda, Phil Niekro, Tony Perez, Earl Weaver and Billy Williams; former executive Jim Frey; executives Roland Hemond (Diamondbacks) and Bob Watson (Major League Baseball); and writers Jack O’Connell (MLB.com), Tim Kurkjian (ESPN) and Tom Verducci (Sports Illustrated).

The list of executives that are on the 10-person ballot for induction includes Marvin Miller, who is long overdue for induction (just my opinion). He helped change the game, made the players union into the power that it is  and was there with Curt Flood at the frontline of the free agency staredown. The other nine (brace yourself Brooklyn): Buzzie Bavasi, Barney Dreyfuss, John Fetzer, Bob Howsam, Ewing Kauffmann, Bowie Kuhn, John McHale, Walter O’Malley and Gabe Paul.

The 12-person committee chosen to select inductees from the executive list include Cardinals chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. and Mr. Hummel.

The committees will meet in during the Winter Meetings on Dec. 2 to discuss the ballot and vote.

Results will be announced Dec. 3.

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8 comments

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Excellent ballots, both of them, and I sure hope Whitey finally gets in. However, there’s a lot of really good competition there.

I wonder how many of today’s fans know who Hank O’Day was? For those who don’t know, try googling “Merkle Incident”. ;)
And yes, Marvin Miller is way overdue.

Bob Howsam??!??

— Jmodene
9:28 pm November 8th, 2007

Oh yes - wouldn’t it be ironically delicious if Whitey Herzog and Ewing Kaufmann were both elected, given their history?

— Jmodene
9:29 pm November 8th, 2007

“… players, managers, umpires and executives …”

Who’s missing from this list? Coaches. Why are only managers included but not coaches? For that matter, scouts and others. There are a variety of guru hitting and pitching coaches who helped create innovations, influenced careers and contributed to championships, but they seem ineligible unless they managed. Likewise, there must be scouts and other “baseball men” who deserve at least consideration. In some cases, there may be guys who had long careers, starting as players and later both on the field as coaches and managers but along the way also as scouts, GMs or in other front office jobs. A few of these guys might not be on a HOF list for any one job but are HOFers for their cumulative work. I’m not advocating anybody specifically, but Dave Duncan, Don Zimmer, Fred Martin/Mike Roarke who taught/nurtured Bruce Sutter’s split-finger fastball, Leo Mazzone, hitting guru Charlie Lau. There must be others, probably better examples.

— Fuhrig
2:53 am November 9th, 2007

Worthless trivia: Of all the managers in MLB history (probably thousands) listed on the mighty Baseball-Reference.com, the very first, alphabetically, is current Nationals skipper Manny Acta. The very last is the aforementioned Don Zimmer.

— Fuhrig
3:45 pm November 9th, 2007

I would think that coaches might be considered under the “managers” criteria. Perhaps Derrick can ask the Commish about that.

— Jmodene
9:29 pm November 9th, 2007

Coaches are not considered managers. Every so often there is an uprising to get scouts a place in Cooperstown, and that has a lot of advocates. But you don’t hear too much about the scouts. Lau is an obvious candidate. Around Busch, we talk a lot about how La Russa will go into the Hall and Duncan will fade into history.

Duncan, remember, is the longest serving pitching coach in baseball history. That has to be worth something, somewhere in the halls of Cooperstown, right? Especially when there’s quality not just longevity.

Interesting discussion, to be sure.

dg
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— Derrick Goold
9:44 pm November 9th, 2007

When Herzog is voted on for the HOF, he’s officially voted on as a manager. Are voters theoretically allowed to take into account his full body of work, or just what he did in the dugout? Bernie wrote a breathtakingly compelling argument for Whitey’s induction, noting how he signed key members of the A’s dynasty as a scout, set the Royals on a winning course for a generation, built the ’80s Cardinals from the ground up as GM as well as manager, and then helped point the Angels toward success in the ’90s. But are the voters only considering what he did as MANAGER for the Royals and Cardinals (plus briefly the Rangers)? We all know that voters take into account whatever they want (ie, Martin’s hitting for gold glove). I’m just curious how the HOF voting regulations are structured.

It seems that the manager category could logically be expanded to the wider idea of “baseball man” that I’ve mentioned.

— Fuhrig
9:58 am November 11th, 2007

I think that flamboyant Nineteenth Century owner, Chris Von der Ahe needs to be given serious consideration by the Veteran’s Committee. He is the one that made St. Louis baseball what it is today. He was one of baseball’s first showman owners and he helped give the older, more established National League its first direct on-field challenge with the founding of the American Association in 1882. His St. Louis Brown Stockings would become one of baseball first great dynasties, winning four AA pennants in the 1880’s as well as the World’s Championship in 1886 in a precursor to the modern World Series. The Brown Stockings would be one of four teams that would transfer to the National League when the American Association folded after the 1891 Season. They would eventually morph into the Cardinals and enjoy even greater success - winning ten more World Championships.

— hoot45
11:17 am November 20th, 2007