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01.31.2008 12:00 pm

There’s something about Santana

St. Louis Post-Dispatch
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DOWNTOWN — Thanks to the writers’ strike, the best ongoing drama we’ve had this winter is “Courting Johan”, a reality TV series featuring heavy favorites and what is likely to be a surprise ending with a blockbuster payout.

There even was a cameo appearance by the local club.

You might have missed it.

It was early on, perhaps even in the pilot episode, when the Cardinals called the Minnesota Twins to ask if there was a chance they could enter the rose ceremony for the lefty starter and two-time Cy Young winner, Johan Santana. The Twins outlined their wishes — everyday position player, a couple pitchers, all premiums — and, in the words of Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak, “it was clear we didn’t line up.”

Kudos for his candor.

That quote comes from the Winter Warm-up, where a fan asked Mozeliak about the Cardinals and Santana and why they didn’t have a larger role in the sweepstakes won this week by the New York Mets. Mozeliak said he made the approach (”due diligence,” is his phrase) and couldn’t make a match. There was an attempt, he said, but “there wasn’t a fit.”

And that was before the club had to talk extension and $150 million with the pitcher.

The Mets are in the middle of negotiating probably the richest deal ever for a starting pitcher right now, and when it’s completed they will send a package of four prospects to the Twins. Guaranteeing a pitcher to a six- or seven-year deal is always a tricky venture, especially when it is backloaded with massive salaries in the years when there is massive risk on his health. So, money aside, the prospect side of the deal has been met with similar refrains:

Locally, there’s been the question on why the Cardinals didn’t have the horses to pony up a similar package. If the four prospects the Mets gave up could be matched by the Cardinals’ farm system, was the extension really the rub? Perhaps. But the prospects weren’t as shabby as advertised, and the Cardinals probably couldn’t match the foursome the Mets are sending to the AL Central.

True, New York did not give up its top prospect — outfielder Fernando Martinez, who made a mighty impression on the media a year ago in Port St. Lucie – but it did give Minnesota an instant infusion of talent. Following the wish list given the Cardinals, the Twins got their everyday player (outfielder Chris Gomez), their blue-chip pitching prospect (RHP Deolis Guerra),  the steady stock pitcher (RHP Kevin Mulvey), and the lotto ticket (RHP Philip Humber). It might be even more than the list given the Cardinals, but not as much as early reports professed.

Kevin Goldstein, minor-league guru for Baseball Prospectus, had to reorder his Top 11 for the Minnesota Twins because of the trade. The Twins had three new members to Goldstein’s top five, and Mulvey came in at No. 8. The list of players the Twins will get and where the ranked in New York’s Baseball America list and, listed second, Goldstein’s new Twins list:

  • OF Gomez … BA (NY) 3, KG (MN) 1, four-star prospect
  • RHP Guerra … BA (NY) 2, KG (MN) 2, four-star prospect
  • RHP Mulvey … BA (NY) 4, KG (MN) 8
  • RHP Humber … BA (NY) 7, KG (MN) 5

 Using the previous blog entry about the Cardinal Top 30s, try lining up similar prospects to make this trade. Try again. It doesn’t work. Colby Rasmus maybe better than Gomez, but after that? Jaime Garcia is similar and possibly better than Humber. There isn’t a Guerra comp I can think of, not one who pitched well enough to earn praise from scouts at 18 in A-ball.

Please, offer up suggestions in the comments below. Maybe I’m missing something.

The Santana deal gave way to the pursuit of Erik Bedard, the other lefty on the block — way more than a consolation prize for the pitching-hungry teams out there. Bedard’s local paper gave a nice sketch of the overshadowed ace. Seattle is reportedly going to give a nice packet of players (not just prospects) over for the lefthander. Like the list above:

  • OF Adam Jones … Ranked No. 1 by BA last year; 139 MLB AB.
  • LHP George Sherrill … Lefty specialist who held opponents to .179 average.
  • RHP Chris Tillman … BA 3 … KG 2, four-star
  • RHP Kim Mickolio* … BA 18
  • LHP Tony Butler* … BA 12 … KG 8, two-star

The deal has stalled (* – prospects who are potentially involved), and that has caused a lot of speculation as to why. Some have said the Orioles are trying to work out an 11th-hour extension for the player who submitted $8 million for his arbitration hearing, a $2-million difference from Baltimore’s counter. The Baltimore Sun has reported that owner Peter Angelos did not pull the plug and that other teams are involved

Again, it’s the Cardinals with a cameo.

Bedard intrigued the Cardinals earlier this winter, and with the news that other teams are interested that forced the question: Are the Cardinals one? The answer may be in the prospects. Again. From Cincinnati, the Orioles reportedly demanded that Jay Bruce be in the package. We’ve written in here before about the similarities of Bruce and Rasmus. That’s a non-starter for the Cardinals. Sherrill could be Tyler Johnson … and then? Tillman is Garcia. Butler is … Mitchell Boggs?

The deal would seem to fizzle from its key component: Jones.

The 22-year-old center fielder — who threw 96 mph as a high school pitcher — could be the best player involved in either of the above deals. The best player today. Today. Many believe Rasmus will surpass him. But Jones will play this year, at 22, and be several years away from arbitration, to boot. That’s unlike any player the Cardinals have to offer.

In a thread over at Cards Talk last week, I was asked if I’d rather have the Cardinals’ farm system or Seattle’s system. The Bedard deal, as reported, gives an answer. The Mariners have a system that makes this deal possible. The Cardinals have a system that is probably deeper with contributors, but not stars, not deal-makers. Not now.  

Play the match game and see if there’s a deal, as Mozeliak said, “lines up.”

Do the due diligence.

And use Goldstein’s stars a map to an answer. Soon he’ll release his Cardinals Top 11, and in an email to me today, Goldstein wrote that the Cardinals will have one five-star prospect and two four-star prospects. Wonder who the five-star prospect is. The four-stars might be a surprise to some. All three rank in Goldstein’s Top 100, which came out today over at BP.

Actually they rank in the top 75. Goldstein ranks them, thusly:

8. Colby Rasmus, OF

69. Chris Perez, RHP

72. Bryan Anderson, C

That there is even a question who the two four-stars are is a sign of the improvement the Cardinals have made to their farm system. But it’s not yet enough to enter the bidding for the above pitchers.

-30-

42 comments

Comments are closed.

Patience… it’s going to take a few years of good drafts for the Cardinals to rebuild the farm system. With the incredible cost of league-average pitching on the free-agent market, clubs not based in New York or Boston are going to have to develop pitchers from their minor-league systems… and that takes time.

Besides, the games aren’t played on paper, anyway… Can the Cardinals compete in the NL Central? Yeah… Would I like to have J. Santana or Bedard? Sure, but it ain’t happening!

The last two seasons, the Mets lost Game 7 of the NLCS AT HOME and pulled one of the biggest “El Foldos” since the ‘64 Phillies last year. Like everybody else, they’ve still got issues…

— The Ol Goaler
1:07 pm January 31st, 2008

I don’t understand why Rasmus, Perez, Anderson, Garcia, Boggs wouldnt get a Bedard trade done. Obviously the structure of the package is not the same, but does it have to be? Maybe Tyler Johnson instead of one of those younger pitchers. You could float Duncan and/or Ankiel to try to get a rise. To me it seems like the Cardinals have plenty to acquire one of these pitchers. Maybe I am just the typical Cards fan who overvalues our own players but whatever. For the record, I dont want to trade Rasmus for either pitcher. I am more than willing to ride it out with him and see what we get

— Drederick Tatum
1:25 pm January 31st, 2008

The Cardinals should go after Bedard. In my mind, Anthony Reyes, Brad Thompson, Brendan Ryan, and Rick Ankiel should get it done. Ankiel hasn’t played a full season in the Misouri heat and we have a solid bullpen. The outfield is Duncan, Ludwick, and Rasmus. Have the Orioles throw in an outfielder with Bedard and it’s done.

— terry henry
1:43 pm January 31st, 2008

Sorry about the spelling error. (Missouri)

— terry henry
1:46 pm January 31st, 2008

that trade in no way gets a top of the line pitcher like bedard. thompson, reyes and ryan are all middle of the road quality at best. reyes is the only one that is likely to be stir any interest, and even he is a risky bet that is being traded for a sure thing in bedard. thompson and ryan would not make many teams’ rosters (and may not make ours) and are not viewed as high level prospects. the other teams mentioned in the post are offering top of the line prospects.

cardinals’ fans need to realize that quantity does not replace quality. outside of rasmus, our farm system does not offer trade bait for top of the line, proven major league players.

— tom
2:05 pm January 31st, 2008

Looks like the Cardinals are probably going to struggle no matter what they do this year…so let’s hold on to our top prospects! That is how you build a quality team, long term….not by overpaying for pitchers!

— Jimbo
3:26 pm January 31st, 2008

Grow your own. Sounds great if the Cards hadn’t been talking out of both sides of their mouth on this issue. Come on, sheep, how many ecuses will you buy? You cannot compete (even in the NL Central) if you lowball in the trade market, lowball in the free agent market and lowball in the draft. The Cards have been guilty of all three. Look at the last three drafts (especially at who they passed on for nothing more than money issues) and tell me this is a team serious about building top-of-the-rotation pitchers. Too bad you cannot win with middle relievers and No. 4 starters, the Cards would be golden.

— JAW
4:53 pm January 31st, 2008

It’s good to know that Mozeliak is touching base (not that I expected he would do anything less than that). It’s hard to line up the prospects from our system with those from the other system but comparable deals could look like:

Santana:
1 Gomez Hawksworth (not happy with this comparison but two pitchers who lost stuff due to injuries and probably won’t be more than back-end starters)

Bedard:
1 Jones = Rasmus
2 Sherrill > Perez (Sherrill’s good enough to be a closer and he’s already in the majors)
3 Tillman = Mortensen (both pitchers that project very well but lack upper-level experience — the cardinals seem very high on Mortensen so I’m basing this comparison off their opinion in large part)
4 Mickolio = Worrell/Motte (basically a relief pitcher that could step in and be league average right now)
5 Butler = Brad Furnish

Either trade appears to start and end with Rasmus. Hopefully, Mozeliak remains steadfast in holding onto our top prospect.

— azruavatar
5:51 pm January 31st, 2008

Apologies, forgot about the html tags. the santana comparison should read:

Santana:
1 Gomez [less than] Rasmus
2 Guerra (there’s no comparable pitcher in the Cardinals system — Deryk Hooker and Andres Rosales come to mind but they don’t project as well)
3 Mulvey = Boggs
4 Humber [greater than] Hawksworth (not happy with this comparison but two pitchers who lost stuff due to injuries and probably won’t be more than back-end starters)

— azruavatar
5:54 pm January 31st, 2008

derrick, when we exchanged comments yesterday regarding what kind of contract to negotiate with santana, i think we miscommunicated. when i said i would have offered twenty five for four years with a club option for two more at thirty five. i don’t see that as back loaded unless the club wants it to be. in other words if after four years, the club thinks santana is not worth thirty five on that year’s market, then they pay santana ten and say see ya later. i agree that prospects might not have been equal, perhaps we add an extra or reyes or some other sweetener. maybe i was just carried away with dreams of carpenter, santana, mulder, wainwright, and a really nice choice of fifth man or even a chance for a prospect. i am speaking of 2009. i beg for your thoughts - thanks for doing a great job!

— roger from tahoe
8:02 pm January 31st, 2008

Erik Bedard is this year’s Gil Meche. Neither are worth what there agents are asking. I say hold on to Rasmus. Don’t give away the farm for a guy who’s won 15 games ONCE in his career and has .541 winning % for his career.

Santana will be good but in a few years, he won’t be nearly worth as much as his contract calls for. These Barry Zito deals don’t work. The Cards policy of three years max in the majority of pitcher contracts is sound business. These guys fall apart after a while. Go ahead and let them make their money for those one of two good contracts but don’t sign a guy to a 7 year $100 million extension. That’s stupid.

— aztec
8:03 pm January 31st, 2008

regarding the comment #11 - i wish i would have had a fifteen year contract on roger clemens, bob gibson, greg maddox, john smoltz, etc. etc.

some do work out and if you can lock them up at what today seems like a lot of dollars, might look like the best bargain ever in five years.

derrick is correct as are you that signing contracts with pitchers is a real crapshoot. all you can do is investigate as best you can, close your eyes and throw the dice. lots of times you lose, but sometimes you win really big. it’s all about philosophy my conservative friend. nothing ventured - nothing gained.

i am afraid the cards are too conservative.

— roger from tahoe
8:15 pm January 31st, 2008

derrick - another question: how much, if any, is a players wanting to play for the cards because st. louis is so great worth in dollars on a contract?

— roger from tahoe
8:17 pm January 31st, 2008

everyone seems to forget that the cardinals promised that the reason for building a new stadium and selling everything associated with it that they could was to put a better team on the field, right? Does this seem like a better team? I am very big cardinal fan and it pains me to see what is going on. I guess Ill wait and see and hope I am wrong

— Dan from STL
8:20 pm January 31st, 2008

i think now that santana has gone down, there would be a good opportunity for the cards to buy some inning eating insurance by signing the old guy hernandez. granted we will have to score five with him on the mound, but he’ll give you seven and hold em to five every time with occasional flashes of brilliance. and if no one has grabbed josh fogg, we should look there too. both are not flashy, but pretty steady. if there really is room in payroll, seems the worst we could do by adding these guys is to have some trading chips in july.

— roger from tahoe
8:30 pm January 31st, 2008

And looking at Baseball Prospectus’ Top 100 posted today, we see at #87 a LHP for the Chicago White Sox named Aaron Poreda, whom the Cardinals’ brain-trust saw fit to pass on with the #18 pick in the 2007 draft for a high school shortstop named Peter Kozma.

I understand that Keith Law on the ESPN website ranks Poreda at #67 in his top 100!

Funny, but isn’t power left-handed pitching exactly what the Cardinals have been in need of for years?

Where is Kozma on these lists?

If you want to grow talent from within you have to draft it. Look no further than Luhnow, Mozeliak, and company for the real answers to why the talent in the farm system is so thin.

I’m admittedly bitter because Poreda just happens to be my cousin and told me that the Cardinals called him the day before the draft and told him that they were “going to do everything possible to make him a Cardinal with the 18th pick.” What a crock!

I guess I’ll just have to drive to the south side of Chicago to see him mow down major leaguers later this summer.

— Steve H
10:49 pm January 31st, 2008

As a lifetime Cardinal fan, I am a daily reader of this column and appreciate it. I just wanted to let you know that the best minor league analyst in the business is also an Associate Scout for the Cardinals. Deric McKamey is the best and he’d be worth putting on speed dial for the St.Louis Post-Dispatch. He writes for Street and Smith’s and for BaseballHQ.com. His yearly book can be found on Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/Minor-League-Baseball-Analyst-2008/dp/1891566725

— Terence
4:49 am February 1st, 2008

While we focus the discussion on the Cardinals, it should be noted that 28 other teams didn’t have the willingness to part with prospects or the prospects to part with to land a pitcher like Bedard. And at least a dozen of those teams had a need for a lefty, could-be ace like Bedard.

Bedard is no Meche. Not close.

Interesting stuff on Poreda. And sure, I’m familiar with McKamey and enjoy that book — the whole series of books from Baseball HQ are worth exploring.

This “wanting to play for the Cardinals” is a convenient phrase and really has no value when it comes to settling on a contract for a newcomer, or a free agent. It may change how a current Cardinal feels about an extension, it may get the Cardinals on a list a free agent prefers and it certainly breaks down a no-trade clause (i.e., Glaus, Walker). But it doesn’t give a discount on a contract. It’s just become a standard cliche that must be uttered at a press conference — and it’s often prompted by a question, not volunteered — or a essential part of agentspeak.

dg
-30-

— Derrick Goold
10:00 am February 1st, 2008

First of all, this was the funniest thing I’ve read in quite a while: “In my mind, Anthony Reyes, Brad Thompson, Brendan Ryan, and Rick Ankiel should get it done.” So, thank you for that.

Second, people have to stop judging pitchers on W-L record. Frankly, I wish that stat would go away. It’s meaningless. You can give up 6 runs in 5 innings and get a win, or give up 1 run in 8 innings and lose.

— Kyle
1:56 pm February 1st, 2008

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