There is no way Izzy and Franklin can be given another shot at the closing role. Perez had one really bad outing in his last 10 games in Memphis. He deserves the shot at the 9th, not the 8th so he can pretend its the 9th. I’m not saying he’ll get the job done, but he’s the only guy we haven’t tried yet. But the odds of that happening are slim.

I think there’s a better chance our closer is making a rehab “start” on Saturday.

Fantasy I know, but I had hoped the going nowhere Mariners might ship out J.J. Putz. Enough reasons I suppose that wasn’t going to happen.

Many of us have hoped that if necessary, Perez would sort of be the 1985 Todd Worrell of 2008. Still could happen, but Rolen05 has a point. If our closer is rehabbing Sat, will the starters step up and do even better, especially about getting more innings?

P.S. Does anyone think hard throwing Jason Motte has a good MLB future?

Personally, I’d rather have Wainwright return to a starting role, but what about using him as closer? Is that a valid option?

When La Russa confirmed for several of us before the game that Wainwright was headed out on a rehab assignment — he will start Saturday, somewhere — I asked him if he could also cement the role Wainwright will be returning to when he’s done on his rehab assignment.

The answer, paraphrased, was: No.

La Russa said the team “will see” what Wainwright’s strength is and, perhaps more importantly, what the team’s need is.

dg

Excuse me, I just checked and I was pining for the Putz of last year. We all have fond memories of Wainwright of 06. I doubt he wants to. I doubt management wants him to. The rotation needs him. Still, something has to be done about the nightmarish closing situation.

Thanks Derek. Good info. Goes beyond my speculative answer.

I like Wainwright as a starter, but at this point, I think he’s the best shot we have at closer.

Holy Kowabunga!!! I’m not a baseball brainiac, and I’m not cold, heartless, or fairweather. I stick by great Cards like Izzy. But for goodness sake, he has had enough chances– the magic is gone. PLEASE don’t put him in tomorrow night. I’m taking my Dad to the game, and we don’t wanna see a sad mess like that 9th. Welcome back Carp– sorry for no decision

Please, no more Izzy. He’s a nice guy, but he just doesn’t have it any more. He gets a save, not easily, but with his usual drama. Then he goes right back to what he has been doing all year. He blows a lead, in this case one that we have had the whole game. We can’t keep bringing him in and letting him give games away. It’s stupid to even consider that.

If it were up to me, I would put Wainwright in as closer and pick up Livan Hernandez on the cheap to log some innings.

FIND A NEW CLOSER IZZY HAS LOST HIS TOUCH….IF THE CARDS ARE TO CONTEND WITH CHICAGO AND MILWAKUKE GET A NEW CLOSER OR CONTINUED TO FALL BACK IN THE RACE BY GIVING AWAY GAMES IN THE NINTH SINCE NO TRADE IS AN OPTION TRY THE YOUNG GUYS IN THE BULLPEN YOU’LL NEVER KNOW…….I KNOW LARUSSA AND IZZY ARE TIGHT…….IF THATS THE CASE BUY TWO ROCKING CHAIRS

Chris Perez is a closer, that’s his mentality. You put a closer in the game in the 7th or 8th and it’s not the same. He is a finisher…he gets pumped up for that role. In college, Chris had a 94-95mph fastball in the 7th/8th innings. In the 9th…96-98mph. Do your homework Mo, the kid can bring it. Who cares if he walks a guy here and there, he’s striking out more than he’s walking and nobody wants to dig in against him. He’s a bulldog.

It’s clear to me that LaRussa and Duncan have lost their objectivity where Isringhausen is concerned. It’s inconceivable that they continue to send him out there in late inning game situations, to watch him throw away these much needed victories time and time again. They continue to make excuses for him, repeatedly saying if he could just make this one little adjustment, or if he could just get a few good outings under his belt and regain his confidence, then everything would be OK, but in the final analysis, it doesn’t really matter what his problem is. Results are what matters, and if Izzy’s performances up to this point are not proof enough to LaRussa and Duncan that he can no longer produce those results, then Mozeliak and the front office have to step in and remove the temptation. Release him. Anything to keep LaRussa and Duncan from giving him an endless series of opportunities to get back on track, only to see those oportunities turn into an endless series of blown saves and heart-breaking losses.

Loyalty is fine at family reunions and in army barracks, but in professional sports, if you can’t do the job, management has to find someone who can. Or at least try something new.

It’s sad and painful to watch night after night. I’d hate to see Wainwright have to go shore up the leak in that part of the ship when he is a bonafide top of rotation starter that would help plug a hole in that area. But something has to be done in hole number nine because the hole is a gaping one and the water coming in will soon be to much to SAVE the ship.

I said it before and I will say it again “You will not win the World Series with Izzy as your closer”

When is enough enough????? We wouldn’t have won in 2006 with Izzy in the closer role and we won’t be winning this year with him in the closer role. Why can’t the Cardinal brass see things as clearly as we the fans? Izzy should do all of us a favor and hang it up. Imagine where we would be in the standings if we had won just half of the blown saves. It’s absolutely disgusting. To be a starter and give it your all only to have the bullpen blow it for you has to be very frustrating. Please, Please let Izzy go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like Izzy as a person, but he needs to be released.

Agree totally with Bernie’s comments on loyalty. It seems they are trying to nurse him along to get his 300th save as a Cardinal. I think he needs 7 or 8 to get to that level. But–the way he’s going, he will blow 5 or 6 times that many games to get there. The Cardinal organization has an obligation to the fans to put the best possible product on the field. They clearly are not doing that. We still have a shot if they will just do something to fix the bullpen problems. The best way to start is give Izzy his walking papers.

For many fans, it more-than-obvious back in May that Isinghausen doesn’t have it anymore…..and yet this fiasco is still going on in August! What it does it take to him out of there and for Cards’ FO to go out and get another reliever?

There are three options for the cardinals at closer–Wainwright, Preze, and Looper.

Not to be a “buzz-kill” but with the Brewers andthe Cubs both making deals before the trade deadline, and for the stoic/frugal Cards to just stand pat per normal, we’re getting a bit of what we deserve. We saw this coming. The only reason that Mozeliak shouldn’t have been on the phone during the entire month of July working on a trade is because DeWitt and the rest of his bean counters told him to not spend $$. The other teams get better and we just “sit”. No wonder Dave Duncan will be running to greener pastures and wallets during the off-season when his contract expires, and I don’t think that Tony will be sticking around either.
Izzy IS the problem, and he’s trying; HOWEVER it’s mangement’s fault for not making something happen. Chris Perez sits in Memphis, we don’t bring him up. Putz is still in SEA and Fuentes is still in COL. It’s dissapointing and a GREAT diservice to the that 25 man roster that have played above and beyond this year that management has NOT stepped up and brought pieces together to win. I know that it’s not that simple to just “move” players, but with some of the deals that went down at the deadline this year, we don’t have any excuse for NOT dealing.

The way I see it,the only other option currently in the bullpen is Kyle McClellan.He has shown the fortitude to handle pressure situations,and has a nice assortment of pitches,valuable in case one isn’t working.He also does well against lefties.
If we can somehow get to October,we’ll need Wainwright in the rotation,and using an inexpierienced pitcher (like a Perez) would be dicey at best,considering the pressure.

Wainwright would prefer to be a starter, but he’d prefer even more to be a winner. I don’t think he’d put up any fight at all if asked to close out the season.

I’m in the minority that doesn’t want a lot of AAA pitchers called up. I just keep thinking about Rick Ankiel. He got put in a pressure situation before he was ready, started trying too hard, and messed up his arm. Fortunately he had the skills to switch to another position and keep his big league dream alive and ultimately contribute to the club. But he’s a rarity.

I’m also not ready to give up on Mulder. Another couple weeks and he might be able to start strengthening. There’s no way he’ll get back into enough shape to start this season, but he might still be able to contribute in a spot relief role.

Izzy’s not right this season, that’s for sure. Part Mental, part loss of respect by opponents. Look at Brad Lidge… he completely fell apart for a couple YEARS after AP’s shot. He’s finally starting to turn things around. Some of it was mental, but some of it was other hitters saying “huh, he’s NOT unhittable after all.” Unfortunately for Izzy, we don’t have time to wait for his attitude to come back.

Attitude means a lot in pitching. Look at Gibby. His stuff was good, no doubt about it, but probably not the best of the day, but what made him a great pitcher was the mortal terror he induced in batters. There are no stats on it, but he has to be the all-time leader in batters forced to change underwear.

the cardinals are very lucky to still be contending for a playoff spot; whether a division win or a wildcard spot. in addition, the cardinals have shown that they have a solid farm system. that being said izzy has to go. perez is our answer for the rest of the season. the only other issue is getting it to perez in the 9th without franklin, villone or mcclellen blowing it before hand. where would the cards be if all of these saves were not blown? first place i think. tony, please release izzy so he can be some other teams headache. perez is what we need now if we have a chance to go to the playoffs.

If Izzy is strong enough for one inning only just like he did before he had operation, maybe he proved us wrong. It takes time for Izzy to pitch again before he will have a rubber arm again!

How in the world does Izzy put five runners on base, give up the three runs that ties the game and gets “credit” for a Hold, while Franklin gets both batters out that he faces and gets the blown save. Way to go Tony. Pulled Izzy just in time to not have his record spoiled with another blown save.

I’d rather have Wainwright in the starting rotation, but he probably is our best option. If he goes back to starting, what about Wellemeyer as the closer? At least he has the ability to strike somebody out. Other than Perez, I don’t see that out of any of our other relievers.

Izzy has given us some good years, but let’s face reality and give him the rest of the season to think about it. Wainwright has proven himself in the closer’s role and it’s the bullpen blowing games - not the starting rotation. Put Wainwright in for the 8th and 9th and let’s start saving some games!

why hasn’t tony or duncan been questioned on why Izzy can not throw a 1st pitch strike….he continues to get in trouble by pitching behind in the count….yes is know he’s lost 3-5 mph on his fastball.

If we think should put a starter in the closer role what about this option…

With Carp back and Wainwright back soon that pushes someone out of the rotation. I would go with Carp, Lohse, Wainwright, Looper, & Pinerio and move Wellemeyer to the closer spot. With his arm tenderness lately an inning of work wouldn’t put to much stress on him.

What do you think?

Wainwright should be the closer.

Starting pitchers routinely come back from injury in the bullpen, only to start again the following year.

The bullpen has blown TWENTY-SEVEN leads. The Cards are 5.5 back. If the Cards had held on to just 1/3 of those games, they’d be at least 3.5 in front of the Cubs! Come on Tony, how many chances do you get to personally witness 100 years of futility?!?!?

From “Izzy”, to “Iffy”, to “See you later Pal”.

Last night’s game has to be the icing on the cake as far as Izzy & Franklin are concerned. I may be the only one, but I think if Franklin was really “it”, he would have gotten a ground ball double play and we would have had the win in 9 like the players deserved. It’s time to release, trade, whatever Izzy and move on. Franklin is a 7th inning guy, not 8th or 9th for heaven’s sake. Try Perez and get him some experience. As much as I’m proud of this team, with any bullpen at all, they’d be 5+ games in front of the cubs, not behind! The starters need to go longer & not abuse the ‘pen the way they have and the ‘pen needs to do its job! Please, please, PLEASE release Izzy, thank him and move on!

I think with all the incentive laced contracts, it’s time to start penalizing for blown saves. Would that bring a little more motivation to the bullpen? Would any of them even want to come in?

I agree. We can not GIVE any more games away if we want the wild-card. Wainwright must be given a shot at the closer role for the rest of the year. Hopefully a trade in the off-season for a REAL closer will allow Adam to go back to being a starter in 2009 …..

Front office needs to wake up and CUT Izzy. He is only taking up a much needed roster spot. He would get rocked in a class A game. The time has come. Good bye Izzy. Thanks for some of the memories. Don’t let the door hit ya on the way out.

Thank God we are getting back to reality. Some want to focus on how the constitutional rights of Americans have been destroyed or that we’re $9 Trillion dollars in debt or that we’re using fiat money printed by a private banking cartel that is neither Federal nor has reserves or that we’re in two illegal wars and threatening to start a third or that most of our best payment employment has left the country for good or that our borders are wide open and all the world’s debris is piling across or that we’ve been outsourced to a 3rd world cesspool that produces inferior even dangerous products……..

But Thank God for the sanity of the PD where we can focus on what’s really important.

I’m a lifetime Cardinal fan who just turned 60. Please do not put Izzy into another game for the sake of my health.

They should ask Wainwright to close for the rest of this season while guaranteeing that he’ll be a starter next season. They can trade for a legitimate closer in the offseason. Perez needs more than a fastball to get major league hitters out.

This is now old news, but I wish they had reinstalled Isringhausen as the closer at least two weeks ago, so we could have seen before the trade deadline what he had. If he couldn’t get the job done, he still could have been released, and there would have been time to shop for a substitute. Now the team has its pants down. But there still might be time to give Perez a couple of shots before making a decision on Wainwright.

It doesn’t take Brian Barton (aka a rocket scientist) to figure out that the bullpen needs help. Look at the stats! I know that Mo’ loves to horde all of his young players, but he has to ask himself the question, “Do we want to win when it is completely possible for us to win? Do I want to help DeWitt earn more money by giving the fans a team that they wouldn’t mind paying too much to go see?”

I know he is thinking about the future. But as it stands right not, the future is not looking so bright for the Cards. Rasmus is injured (after all he seems to be the diamond in the rough) and the rest of the minor league pitchers are so-so. It sounds to me that you can trade for a decent reliever now that would benefit the future down the road! Tie a reliever up for awhile. Every team in the MLB knows that a decent reliever is worth their money. They can even use the money freed up by Izzy whenever he leaves at the end of the season.

Start looking at the roster with more reason, Mo’. Then you may have something to get excited about!

I’ve been worried about Franklin for awhile now…closer or set-up guy. He got off to a fantastic start, which is why he was given more responsibility. Now Izzy, a human being with a big heart, has to face a very tough decision. What’s best for the team. As Bernie so ardently points out, an apparent lack of objectivity is why Jason backed himself out last time. HE stepped up, with class, and said take me out. Sadly, it shouldn’t be up to him to make the right decision, he’s not the manager, but he did it awhile ago, and we brought him back.

I’m one for letting Izzy go out on top, with, perhaps, one more save. But, we can’t sacrifice the efforts of the rest of the team… not anymore. It’s clearly upsetting and emotionally wrenching for all, Tony, Dunc, the fans and Jason’s teammates. I don’t see a way to make 300 happen, not now. We are just too tight, and it’s plain not fair to all of us to keep trying. I like Perez’ stuff…needs some more opportunity, but right now, Wainwright gets my nod in the clsoer role, as the surest chance to get us back on track. Good day.

If you insert Waino back into the rotation, that does create a surplus. In my mind that creates a surplus in Starting Pitchers. Waino in the rotation pitching 6-7 innings is very valuable. 1-5 should be: Waino, Lohse, Carp, Looper, then your quandry begins. If Piniero should stay in the rotation, perhaps Wellemeyer would be a decent option in the 9th.

At the risk of “piling on”, we’ve been calling Isringhausen “Thrill Ride” at our home for years–and NOT in a complimentery way! He hasn’t been “lights out” for way too long!

I’d keep Wainwright as a starter and consider taking Looper out of the rotation and sending him to the pen. He’s been a closer before.

What about picking up Joakim Soria from the Royals. That guy has been clutch all year, played in the All-Star game, and we all know the Royals aren’t doing anything as far as postseason is concerned.

There obviously is a typo somewhere in the two sentences “…the Cardinals have not led 64 of their 115 games after the seventh inning. They have lost 12 of those games.”

Of course, losing 12 of 64 games in which you’re trailing after the seventh inning would be sensational–superhuman in fact. So how are these sentences supposed to read? I don’t think the Cardinals have come back to win 52 times when trailing in or after the seventh inning.

The best bullpen pitcher all year has been McClellan. He mowed through the Mets lineup and struck out all three of their big guns recently. His stuff looks good. This reminds me of Waino two years ago and TLR was against putting him in the closer role. Looked how that turned out. To me the obvious choice is McClellan.

We’ve tried everyone else, why not give Brad Thompson a shot? He can’t be worse than what we’ve seen so far. I like Mo, but so far his strategic plan of hoping for the best has failed. In Spring Training I remember he made a comment to the effect that it was their business plan to sign guys like Matt Clement to try to catch lightning in a bottle. That’s failure waiting to happen. I see 2 disturbing parallels: 2003, when the Division was there for the taking but nothing was done (Estaban Yan doesn’t count) to stabilize the bullpen. Also the end of the Dal Maxville era when he wouldn’t (or more likely couldn’t) do anything to improve a poor team and organization.

Izzy, Thanks for the memories, so long, goodby.

The problem is, as long as Izzy’s around period, no one is going to want to “take” the closer role from him. Look at Franklin’s numbers after Izzy returned. Even LaRussa acknowledged the problem of Franklin constantly looking over his shoulder, knowing he had Izzy’s role. Read any interview with Wainwright about taking over the closer role in ‘06 and you’ll see that he felt guilt over taking the Cardinals to the World Series without Izzy - and that’s when Izzy was injured so I doubt he’d feel good about closing when Izzy’s “healthy”. As it stands, Izzy is focused on getting to 300 saves before his contract is up instead of winning games. PLEASE let him go and put in some guys who know the meaning of being a team player!

How about holding Moz and DeWitt responsible for giving games away? They are the guys that rank minor league prospects better than anyone available in the market.

The Cardinals have finally broken my price point. I have already purchased my tickets for this year but I won’t support the franchise financially in any other way. The ownership and management is not holding up their end of the bargain. The last two games told the whole story. Instead of having someone with experience against Lidge we send up two prospects. Instead of closing with someone acquired at the trade deadline, we send up tired arms. The ownership and upper management (outside of Tony) have a plan and it doesn’t include the paying fans.

How does DeWitt and Moz think they are going to retain Albert after giving away games over the next two years? How do they retain their Hall of Fame manager? Carpenter? Wainwright? These guys sure are betting the ranch - the ranch that fans have paid for - on their ‘plan’.

Cardinal fans deserve better. The organization will get zero incremental dollars from this fan as a result of their mismanagement of this team this year.

From some rumors on 1380 this morning, sounds like Perez may be on his way back up to St. Louis. Can anyone confirm this? If so, I would like to see him get a shot at the closer role for a week or two. If it works, then we have our answer. If not, then Wainwright must go back to the closer role. Cross your fingers…

You know… the big thing to me is if Tony LaRussa and Dave Duncan truly cared about Izzy’s well-being right now they would take him out of the closer’s role.

I was OK with him getting another shot, but if this is torture for us, the fans, how is it for the man who’s giving up all these leads? Izzy’s a supposed stand-up guy, so one would assume that this is killing him.

The people in charge can’t let this slip into the teams chemistry (if it hasn’t already), otherwise this season is toast. But, more importantly, they need to stop putting Izzy in these situations. His time, seemingly, has passed. It’s time for a new direction. Wainwright pulled off the closer gig as a young prospect, Perez could handle it too (not saying he will be able to, but the potential is there).

I probably should volunteer to close. I can throw almost 60 MPH and am 54 years old. Wouldn’t that be an improvement????

Although putting Wainwright as a closer seems like a good option. I think that we will blow even more games by not getting Pinero out of our rotation, face it he hasn’t won a game in MONTHS. Ditch Pinero for Wainwright that gives us: Carp, Lohse, Wain, Well, Looper. Bring Ankiel in from center field to close out the games. Okay the last part was a joke but bring someone up like Perez, we will be in every game with that starting rotation. All you need in a 3 run game is a guy that won’t walk guys like Franklin or McClellan but in 1 run games bring in a guy like Perez. What about Jaime Garcia the guy has some sick pitches.

the cardinals should install chris perez as the closer and see how he handles it. when wainwright finishes his rehab stint then you can evaluate if he is the better option.

since being sent down
perez had one blow up inning at memphis 1 IP 4 H 5 R 0 BB 2 K
otherwise he’s pitched 6.2 IP 2 H 0 R 3 BB 16 K(YES 16)

when izzy was put on the dl the first time the cardinals should have installed perez as the closer and seen what he could do. when perez was called up the first time he was throwing lights out and had control of his slider but the cardinals chose to try to make him a two inning pitcher with erratic appearances. he lost the slider and became a one trick pony…

also people
the non waiver trade deadline has passed and there is no way a putz, fuentes or the like get through waivers and there isn’t a randy meyers big contract for a eroded pitch anywhere in baseball besides already on our roster(mr. isringhausen)

i’d like to take a look at lefty scott eyre, who the cubs DFA….wouldn’t he like to return to form and burn the cubbies

C’mon, people! For those of you asking Tony to release Izzy, get a clue: it’s NOT his JOB. That’s Mo’s job. Tony plays with what he’s given. The pitchers that he’s got to work with aren’t doing well in the late innings. It’s obvious.

Perez, while being called “the future” at closer, didn’t show much by way of any secondary pitches. His success at the AAA and AA level does not translate to the big leagues, where they feast on fastballs no matter how hard they’re thrown…

Take a look at the big pitches that closed out the 2006 playoffs by Wainwright - that’s right, CURVEballs. Think Carlos Beltran doesn’t still have nightmares about the Uncle Charlie that froze him in the NLCS? That pitch was the one that got it done against a premier hitter.

The answer is a “lights-out” closer, one of which is just not being made available by the traditional routes. We haven’t really had one like thta since the days of Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, or dare I even say Tom Henke!

Soria would be a great option, as someone brought up earlier, but it’s obvious that Kansas City knows what they have in a great young closer and asked for more than Mozeliak was willing to give in return. There aren’t many of these guys around anymore. Nathan in Minnesota, Rodriguez in Anaheim, Papelbon in Boston, and I even dare say Wood in Chicago (when healthy!) are the types of closers that the Cardinals desperately need, but won’t be able to get their hands on.

It’s unfortunate, but true that we’ve enjoyed an overachieving team this year that has made things interesting, but true colors are starting to expose the core problems that will bring us back into the middle of the pack by season’s end. Ludwick has been a very pleasant surprise, Ankiel, when healthy, has done well. Pujols has defied the “experts” who claimed that his elbow wouldn’t hold up this year and has continued to be the professional hitter we have come to enjoy for the past 7+ years.

What about the bullpen? The Cardinals lead the majors in the total number of 1-run games, but they’ve only won about half of them. Unfortunately, many of those 1-run games were being led by a wider margin before the 9th inning rolled around and the bullpen had blown part or all of that lead. Much of this would have been different with a better staff of set-up relievers and ultimately could have ended better with a “lights-out” type of closer.

I hate to knock on guys like Flores or Villone, but please! Left handed specialists are a big part of what makes up a successful bullpen and we don’t have any! From the right side, McClellan has been great, Springer has been dependable, Franklin has been up and down, but past that there’s really nothing left to use at the end of the game!

Short of trading a package of prospects that are “highly touted,” don’t expect to see anything happen this year or next!

It makes absolutely no sense to put Wainwright in the closer role again. Yes, he excelled at it before. But we need him the rotation. Why not put Looper in that role? We all know that he is just a glorified reliever anyway. Heck I would even be for putting Piniero in that role as well. Both of these guys usually start out pretty strong.

To put Wainwright into the closer role would take away a quality starter (he was our ace for a long time while Carp and Mulder were healing). With someone else taking his spot on the rotation would further screw Wainwright of some game time because he may not have an opportunity to close.

Plus, if we could have acquired what we really needed at the trade deadline, Yes I am talking about a shortstop seeing that ours hits .170 against right handers. Then we would probably be leading games by more then 1 run in the 9th. I have a question for LaRussa if you want a better hitter in the 9 spot shouldn’t you move you picher back there most of them hit better then Izturis, I suggest getting rid of all players that names start with “I” put Miles at ss and Kennedy at sencond or the other way around.

Tom writes:

How in the world does Izzy put five runners on base, give up the three runs that ties the game and gets “credit” for a Hold, while Franklin gets both batters out that he faces and gets the blown save. Way to go Tony. Pulled Izzy just in time to not have his record spoiled with another blown save.

And the only way I can respond is:

Exactly. Bingo. No idea. A complete and utter failure of a statistic.

dg
-30-

T-ball has and always will be a west coast manager. He does not understand the fans of St. Louis. The fans here have policed the bad players, always have and always will. When a Cardinal player starts thinking he is above the game, his time has come, or in general just no good, Cardinal fans assist the management in letting them know the players time has come to part ways. Tony seems to have never understood that or imbraced the pulse of how baseball smart most Cardinal fans are.

We all know what Izzy has contibuted to the organization, many fans appreciate his efforts on and off the field. But come on,… please someone, anyone,… sit Izzy down and tell him his time has come to call it quits. Baseball stats over the history of the game list thousands of players that have come close to 300-400-500 homeruns, 2,000-3,0000 hits, etc. etc. etc…it is sad he came close to number and fall short of it, but if it means watching the Cardinals lose 20 games they should have won just so he can reach a number,… no thanks! And if thats the case lets lose with a young guy verse a old guy, it certainly couldn’t be any worse at this point.

P.S. Kudos to all. It took less than 10 comments on the All-Star Logo entry for someone to fire off the first curse word. Here, where emotions are really running high on something that, oh, matters in the standings, nary a curse word in the first 62 comments. (Applause.)

Should have gotten a closer in trade before trade deadline. We all knew it but they didnt wish to give away prospects to do this so here we are with another blown save and more questions than answers! The management apparently is banking on Wainwright coming back to close..why else would they stick with Franklin and Izzy (God love him but he is KILLIN us!)

One other comment (not izzy related) To the broadcaster last night that mentioned that A. Miles is not a 5 tool player really doesn’t understand Cardinal baseball. Miles comes prepared, ready to play, hustles, never gives up on a plate appearence, and plays within his talent level. A. Miles is the new Cardinal secret weapon. He may fade like many other bench players over the years but his time his here and now,… adding another player to steal time from him is just plain crazy! Kudo’s to the management on another quailty pick up.

I’m not even a Cardinal fan and I find the GM pissed about blown saves hilarious. Obviously it was a problem before the trade deadline and the bum failed to make any sort of move to shore it up. Can’t complain if you didn’t even try to fix it.

Derrick: Why not move Looper to closer…a role in which he’s been successful in his career..and replace him with Wainright in the rotation? Looper knows what it takes to be successful as a closer and clearly is a team player since he agreed to try being a starting pitcher. Are Tony and Dunc just too stubborn to consider this an option?

EdaFan,

Looper would resist that move. First, he enjoys starting. Second, he’s about to be a free agent at the end of the season — and may want some guarantee in exchange for moving, though I’m not sure how much leverage he has in that regard. (Free agency cuts both ways in this argument.) Third, the Cardinals asked him to radically change his career with the leap-of-faith into the rotation and he’s pitched well enough there to be given the the respect that change earned.

Clearly, there’s a debate to be had between what is better for the Cardinals Wainwright starter/Looper closer vs. Looper starter/Wainwright closer. Not saying those are the only options on the table — because there has been no indication Looper is being talked about internally as a candidate — but they are certainly two worth discussing.

dg

i guess wainwright who has been out and hasn’t thrown a pitch for about two months is going to be able to go out and throw 7-8 innings right out the gate after he’s finished his rehab in a week and a half or two…and will save some of those extra innings from the bullpen so the cards will have a more rested pen to still send out izzy or franklin to blow the game in the ninth

remind me how many wins do the cardinals have and how many blown saves and you think wainwright would be more important to the rotation…our rag tag bunch of starter has statistically been one of the better rotations in the league… lohse, looper, wellemeyer, piniero and now carpenter…

if perez can handle the closing duties i’m all for it BUT if the cardinals still need to fill the closers role when wainwright comes back(assuming he’s healthy and able to throw all his pitches) the end game is where he needs to be. wainwright has done it before and was good…who would you rather have close wainwright, looper, pineiro or wellemeyer if one has to be the odd man out of the rotation and the other tried out in the closers role?

looper can go 7 innings…how long before wainwright can.

wainwright will do what ever the cards ask to improve the teams chances of winning and he knows the cards will put him back in the rotation next season.

AS a true Cardianl Fan, I feel Izzy still has what it takes to be the closer. His pitches look much better than before. I have faith in him. I think we all need to have faith in him. He can get the job done. He is a Cardinal and deserves our support and not our critism. How can we critize someone, when we do not have the ability to do his job. And i beleive he will get the job done. And if he does it will change the whole face of the bull pen and we will be a better team. I would bring Perez up for insurance. And Wainright must start if we are going to win it all.

OK, why not move McClellan to replace Wellemeyer’s spot in the rotation for the few 5th starter roles you need in August and until Wainwright returns. Bring up Perez and use him with Wellemeyer as your ninth inning closers. Your rotation would be Carpenter, Lohse, Looper, Pineiro and McClellan. Wellemeyer does not have the stamina to pitch deep into games, but for one or two innings he can dominate. Anything would be better than using Izzy or a worn out Franklin.

Why not give Kyle Mccllellan a shot a closing? This may be like the Wainright situation of 2006 when Adam was considered the Cards best pitching prospect. As I understand Kyle is now considered the Cards best prospect. Let him try to close and then in the off season address the bullpen.

Enough is enough. Izzy should be done as a St. Louis Cardinal. For his sake and the fans!

yah its a pretty big kick to the stomach(that the cardinals didnt pick up any releiver(lefthanded or closer) before the deadline), but i cant say i didnt expect it. The team’s ownership puts way too much value on their prospects…..you would think that the springfield and memphis cardinals are undefeated with all their great players they have down there. Other than colby rasmus and Jaime Garcia, we dont really have any other blue chip prospects (negating bryan anderson, b/c some guy named yadier plays his position). they will take the usual “stay the course” attitude (it worked for bush why not for us?) They will always say that they pursued the breast and the brightests (another bushism), but the opposition was asking for way too much for just a rental player. and of course cardinal loving nation will eat it up. Why would they lie to us??? b/c they are just sitting back counting their money, they have the most loyal fans, who come in droves to every game, are consistently in the top 5-7 in attendance every year, have huge corporate sponsorship, a new ballpark, (all sorts of revenues coming in) and for some reason they never sign key free agents, or never trade (citing the aforementioned reason, or that they dont want to mess with this teams chemistry) well i got a news flash, when this bullpen blows one more close game against a rival, there will be a lynching in stl. maybe not, but how many times can a team fight so hard and be hung out to dry by a depleted bullpen. god i sound like a cubs fan.

Can someone explain this to me? I am assuming La Russa and Duncan know whether a pitcher has good stuff. They have watched Izzy for the season. I cannot believe they continue to bring him in if he doesnt have good stuff. As a fan i am frustrated by all this. The Cardinals are one closer away from being the best in their division (including the Cubs).
Izzy must have something on his pitches or La Russa and Duncan would send him home. Is he really this bad and if so La Russa and Duncan have also experienced a degeneration of their baseball skills.

I’m just afraid the fans might storm the field and chase Tony out of town if he brings Izzy in again in the ninth with a lead.

Isnt the definition of insanity bringing Izzy in repeatedly in the ninth and expecting a different result? I think in the dictionary there’s even a picture of Tony on the side of the page.

Why has no one brought up the idea of putting Wainright back in the rotation and making Looper the closer? Looper was a solid bullpen guy at one point in his career. With Perez, Garcia and McClellan in set-up roles and Franklin and Isringhausen in the minors or on the DL, the Cards might actually have a shot at the wild card.

Action Plan:

1. Release Izzy
2. New Closer - Chris Perez
3. Rotation before Waino comes back - Carp, Lohse, Looper, Joel P., and Wellenmeyer
4. Rotation when Waino is back - Carp, Waino, Lohse, Joel P., and Looper.
5. Wellenmeyer to bullpen when Waino comes back, if Perez has done as well as Izzy or Franklin did, then Wellenmeyer new closer. If Perez kicks tail, Wellenmeyer becomes setup man and Springer/McClellan man 7th inning.
6. Franklin is used for mopup in blowout games only.
7. Euphoria in Busch Stadium ensues, and starting rotation ditches idea to go postal on bullpen guys with fungo bats.

Everyone thinks that wainright as the closer would cost this team in the rotation. while i agree pineiro needs to go and the rotation could use waino but at this point in the season you’re looking at maybe 8 more starts for waino. you could say he could help you win all of those but more logically 4 or 5. the way the bullpen is going do you not think that waino could win the cardinals more than 4 or 5 games as the closer. i think so. they’re blown that many saves since the all star break. i think he’ll do whatever his teams needs him to do and he may even relish in the thought of returning to the closer role even if just for this last month and a half.

Why even have a closer all the cards need is a releaf picher. Im getting tired of watching the so called closer give up games

There are too many people wanting Wainwright to move into the closer role. We need another starter that can go long to take pressure off the bull pen. Wainwright before his injury was averaging close to 7 innings a game. Pinero and Wellemeyer have troubles going longer than 5. Looper (who is a better starter than a reliever) has troubles going more than 6. Look at Loopers last 10 outings he is averaging barely 5 innings per start! WE NEED WAINWRIGHT AS A STARTER! I would like to see McClellan or Perez get a shot. Although McClellan needs to rest, he’s shown outstanding consistancy at this level, which you need as a closer. I think when Wainwright comes back as a starter and that means a starter is removed from the rotation. Pinero whose been horrible lately should go to the bull pen. He has great movement on his pitches and maybe more effective as a long inning reliever. Wellemeyer who is a better starter because he’s found the strike zone and believes in Dunc’s strategy may be better now as a single inning reliever. He has strike out potential, as he currently leads the team in strikeouts. I also like the stuff rookie left-hander Garcia has and I like how fresh his arm is. Something needs to be done with Izzy, possibly make him a middle reliever, he didn’t do too bad at that. We are going to need playoff experience when push comes to shove in the bull pen. If we continue to throw rookies and unknown individuals into the game we will crumble down the stretch when things really matter. No matter what happens rookie or veteran I don’t think we have a logical answer to this question right now. However, as I previously stated NO ADAM WAINWRIGHT as a closer! We will see better protection if the guys are more rested in the pen. Wainwright, Lohse, and Carp will eat innings resting our pen and that will help aide in changing the pens poor performance.

On another thought quickly, if we boo anyone that comes out of our bull pen when they are in the middle of a save or any other stress filled situation, we only hurt our team as fans! If you don’t think a booing crowd doesn’t get into the pitchers head more than the batter or any thing that has occured on the field your WRONG! If you feel you have to boo do it in your head! Don’t errupt during a game at busch into a loud roar of BOO! Your only hurting your team more!

In looking at the post-Izzy options, here’s one I don’t think has been suggested: Pineiro. Now before anyone throws a handfull of Ballpark Village dirt in my direction, think about the following: A closer come in to typically get one inning of work, and does not often come in with runners already on base. If you look at Pineiro’s numbers in the first inning over his last ten starts, he’s only allowed runs in two of those ten games (7/26 - 2 runs, and 7/13 - 1 run). That would give him a first inning ERA of 2.70 (assuming all three runs were earned). Keep in mind in the first inning, he’s facing the top of the lineup. This might also be addition by subtraction - he’s been hit hard the longer he’s worked into games, so if we can capitalize on what he does well and avoid what he doesn’t do well, wouldn’t that be a win-win?

Give Perez the shot. Izzy’s been a great Cardinal and deserves to be remembered better than what his stats this year have been. Franklin deserves a medal for going out there night after night knowing that he’s not a true closer. Put him back in that 8th inning role. If Perez fails and we’re still in the race the only option left will be to put Wainright in there in the 9th inning and address this closer issue this winter.

This problem has been ignored by Mozeliak. The players and coaching staff have done a great job getting to this point. Look at our outfield - all are making between 350-900K this year and getting the job done as well as any other team. Middle infield is pot luck and performing. Starting pitching is way beyond what it should have been. Most GM’s would have considered themselves lucky to be in contention at this point and fixing the one glaring issue - An old, beat up and unproductive bullpen. Everyone reading answer this question: How would you manage the 7-9th innings. Now manage the next night giving the day before rest. Guess what - you can’t. Mozeliak went through the trade deadline looking like a rookie getting run over by the competition, or even worse looking like a vet not running out a groundball. This was his first true test of competition and he is to blame in the late innings for his lack of results. Izzy+Frank+MO = Blown Save.

The only thing worse than watching Jason Isringhausen blow another save is listening to Al Hrabosky constantly making excuses for him and infering that somehow the Cardinals owe him the opportunity of reaching 300 saves. Please… there are just not enough games left in the schedule at the current blown save to save ratio for this to happen this year. And Tony LaRussa, While I admire loyalty to a player the only explanation I can come up with for you continuing to send Jason Isringhausen to the mound is he must have pictures of you in a compromising position. Jason Isringhausen has never been a lights out closer. Your opponents probably can’t wait for the 9th inning to get back in the game. And we all know the cardinals would not have won the world series in 2006 if Mr. Isringhausen was the closer. I know this all sounds rather harsh

….BUT IT IS WHAT IT IS!

What is the Cardinals’ won-loss record in the 27 games that have been blown saves?

Has anyone considered Kyle McClellan? He throws strikes, has good velocity, and does not cave under pressure. Alternatively, bring up Perez and let him try. He can’t be any worse than what we have so far. I’d be opposed to returning Wainwright or Wellemeyer to the ‘pen. These guys have done extremely well in converting. I think there’s a risk (both physical and mental) in putting them back. H.

To the true cards fan who wrote Izzy still has what it takes to be a closer and that you have faith in him, I thought the captain of the Titanic was no longer living.

A few more thoughts on the Pineiro option:

I know he’s not the classic closer as he doesn’t come in throughing 98 mph nor does he have a trick pitch, but he does work his way through the first inning effectively. I looked up his first innings for every game he pitched this season (what else is there to do in Macomb?), and he has allowed five runs in 18 first innings for this year - an ERA of 2.5 for inning number one. The problem I’ve notice with Pineiro is an inability to finish off a hitter the second and third time through the lineup - the count goes to 2-2, the hitter fouls off a couple of decent pitches, and Pineiro invariably has nothing new to show the hitter to put him away. It’s the same problem Eric Gagne had when he first came to the big leagues and tried to make it as a starter - he just looked clueless trying to put someone away the sedond or third time through the lineup.

Look, I know Pineiro’s not a great profile for a closer, but show me someone at the major league level who is available who is better at putting hitters away in his first inning of work? He probably couldn’t go everyday, but he might be part of a closer by committee configuration.

Wow! a lot of comments and good talk here….

Well, I had previously advocated Carp for the closers role, but at the moment anyway, I think he needs to remain in the rotation. He looked good last night. It is so critical that he got a couple of good starts under his belt. He just needs to keep building up his arm, and find the strike zone more consistently and maybe Carp become as much of a productionsl boost as a mental one to the Cardinal club.

Could Kyle McClellan become a starter soon? I saw where someone had mention plugging him in for a few fifth starts down the strech here in 2008. That might be difficult to do now, but going into next year maybe he has a shot at starting.

we wouldn’t be giving up games like this if you would of pulled the trigger on a trade for our bullpen. Our minor league players were not that untouchable, your telling me that Anderson and a few others couldn’t of got you one of the closers out there?

what about putting jamie garcia in the rotation, send pinero down to triple a or something like that, and have a looper or wellemeyer fill in the closer role and see what happens. we cant have any of the current pitchers in the bullpen pitch the ninth if we want to win.

Perez needs an offspeed pitch to be effective, mlb players will tee off on his heater after awhile. Wainwright needs to show he can still bring his bread and butter(that sharp curve) before we even think about using him in the closer role, or any other role for that matter, if his curve doesn’t come back like it was pre-injury then he wont work out. Izzy is done sad to say-toppin out at 89 and the cutter just doesn’t cut like it used to, his curveball is way better this year, but command lacks. I feel we are done this year, not making a move before the brewers series, and losing 2 of those games due to blown 9th innings sealed the deal. Its not on TLR or duncan, they do a great job with what they have. ITS ON MO, SHUOLDA MADE A TRADE BEFORE THE BREWERS SERIES-THAT WAS OUR SEASON RIGHT THERE. SHAME ON YOU MO AND FRONT OFFICE-TOO BUSY FISHING DOLLARS OUT OF LAKE DEWITT!!

How many chances is Isringhausen going to get? He obviously cant close and needs to probably just retire. Its the only thing Tony Larussa is doing bad at this year. He his doing an amazing job with this club, but for some reason he just cant see that Isringhausen cant close. Even when he does get a save, he has to make it interesting, like load the bases first and hes just a joke, get rid of him!

Can we PLEASE get rid of Izzy. Every time Tony puts him in I have a panic attack because I know he will give up runs. Can someone please explain why Tony continues to put him in the games. Lets at least pretend he is injured again so he can go on the DL.

The frustrating part of Mo’s comments is when he says that “right now people are answering things with more emotion than real thought”. While people may be upset, it’s not like this problem has just suddenly popped up. The Cardinals have known that the bullpen was a problem for the better part of three months. Ok, so they tried pretty much eveything available in house. After a couple of months of that not working out they should have made some kind of move to obtain help from outside the organization. It really looks like Mo has made some major mistakes in his rookie campaign and today it looks like it might cost them a post season appearance.

One question: Didn’t the bullpen seem to do better when Izzy was on the DL and everyone knew he was not available? Is his presence (especially when not the closer) causing some (unintentional) disruption of the bullpen?

Well maybe Mozeliak should have made a deal on July 31st..how bout that Mr. Mo?

I wonder how Tony’s good friend Bobby Knight would handle our woeful relief bunch–particularly the closer. Why do managers baby pitchers all the time? They are getting paid millions to do a job and they should be expected to perform. If they don’t, the manager should get in their face and let them know about it. I could see Bobby Knight grabbing a pitcher by the neck and getting his attention. This situation is utterly ridiculous!!!!!! It is MO’s job to correct this situation. He MUST take Izzy out of the equation!!!!!!!!!! If we, the fans, can’t get management’s attention any other way, the fans should get up and walk out of the stadium any time Izzy is brought into a game. All of them are paid by the fans–we have to have a VOICE in all of this. I’ve had enough of all of this!!!!! How about you????

Another thing–I’m watching the postgame on Fox. The reporters are wimps. The top news item is Izzy and no one is challenging Tony on what management intends to do. Quit playing like a bunch of pansies!!! Press management for answers.

One more thing–Hrabosky is always supportive of everything the Cardinals do. Quit pandering to the Cardinals–when they screw up, say it!!!

MO, MO, MO–this message is for you!!!!!!!!!!!

Your job title is General Manager, isn’t it?? Well, it’s time for you to step up to the plate and Manage. Your first action needs to be to release Izzy. This should be followed with getting a bonafide closer. Tony seems reluctant to put Perez under that pressure. If that’s your feeling also, then you have to get someone else and do it now. Has it crossed your mind where we would be in the standings if we had only blown half as many games? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know we would be sitting atop the Central. We are close enough that you owe it to the fans to “Go for it”. Get some gumption and do something!!!!! I applaud the Glaus/Rolen deal but beyond that, you haven’t done much in your tenure. If ever there should have been a July 31st deal, this was the year but the Cardinals sat on their hands. Reward the BEST fans in Baseball–get something done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All can point fingers at other closers but Izzy must go that all there is to it. He blows game after game why do they keep acting like he has it? He doesn’t anymore he needs to retire gracefully quit worrying about his 300 games and think about the team as a whole…

Perez is a good option if he can use something else besides his fastball..althought he can throw in the high 90’s hitters in the big league will time him..hopefully he’s learned something while back down in the ninors..Izzy and Franklin are no option any more..they just can’t get the job done when ask too..Perez fails, Here comes Wainwright…

Rather than griping at the coaches why dont you find some personel that can get the job done. With a lock down closer I do believe our bullpen would be much better.

Well If the front office would have gone out an try to pick up a pitcher instead of waitting on one of the injured pitch to help take some of the pressure off the bull pen. They wouldn’t be losing so many close games.