I feel lucky to have been able to watch Pujols from his first at bat in a Cardinals uniform. It truly is amazing how consistant he is. Congrats Albert the Great!

The hard work, ethics and competitive nature of this man are paying off. On and off the feild Albert Pujols is a hero because of the sacrifices he makes, to make himself a better ballplayer and human being. Truely a man of God and for God and God has blessed him. This mans life can be a mentor for all of us. Congratulations Mr. Pujols! You deserve all the awards you have and will recieve in this world and the one to come!

Here’s to hoping “Mo” and Bill can find a way for Albert to finish his career in St. Louis. What a privilege it is to watch him play. Look at all of the “pre-free-agency deals” going down. Santana was worth a speedy OF’r and some minor leaguers. Peavy will be worth the same. I defy you to come up with a package of players that could fill the hole Albert would create, both in the lineup and in St. Louis sports history.

I hate to say it, but I’m willing to watch the payroll suffer for awhile to see baseball history in the making. And with the competitor he is, I can’t see him depleting the entire team to get his payday. I think he wants to be treated well, and he loves LaRussa. So keep Tony happy, and when he eventually leaves, make a move suitable to Albert.

DG,

I wonder if the idiot element of the BBWAA will get it right this time?

-B

I admit I am not a Cardinals fan, I am a Pirates fan. I have watch Pujols throughout his career and I do agree he is a great player. I find it silly to refer to him as one of the best ever. It is far to soon and I wouldnt even say that he is better than guys like Jason Bay or ARod yet. Whens his career is all said and done then we will see were he stands, as of now this however this article never should have been written.

Wade: Pujols not better than Jason Bay? Really?

Hey DG - Just wanted to cast a fan vote for you and Joe Straus for earning the IronMan Award and Fan’s Choice Awards for consistent and excellent coverage of Cardinals Baseball. Do you guys ever take a day off? Thanks for keeping our thirst for Cardinals coverage quenched every day. Now, take a week off…you’re going to need your energy. Pitchers and catchers report soon.

Albert is a classy guy both on and off the field, and I’m glad to see him win another award. I just have this feeling that he’ll be the bridesmaide in the MVP race yet again. Ryan Howard has flashier numbers in HR’s & RBI’s, but Albert always trumps him in batting average, defensive play, and slugging percentage…but the BBWAA (who I agree are idiots) always recognize HR’s over batting average.

Jason Bay? You must be kidding? You lost all potential credibility on that one.

What’s that saying? It’s better to let people think you’re an idiot, than opening your mouth and proving it?

I’m looking your way Wade.

If I made my comment on a general MLB board and not on a St. L one just about every response would agree with me.

Wade,

I am with Brian W. - Jason Bay - come one. I get A-rod, but not Bay. Incidentally, A-Rod has twice as many strike outs as Pujols since 2001. Certainly not the complete measure of who he is, but if I have to pick a guy to put at the plate in the bottom of the 9th in game seven of the World Series, Pujols is up for sure.

Jason Bay stats- BA - .282 , RBI 491 , HR - 149 in 771 games
Albert Pujols stats- BA - .334, RBI - 977 , HR - 319 1239 games.

Yeah Wade,,, I’ll say it,,, You’re an idiot.

“but if I have to pick a guy to put at the plate in the bottom of the 9th in game seven of the World Series” Sorry Brian but I have to go with Big Papi or Alfonso Soriono on that one.

I find that hard to believe honestly. While I’m not taking anything away from Bay, he is a great player, there is no way he can be in the same conversation as Albert. The only other player that could be today is A-Rod, which you mentioned. Bay doesn’t measure up to Pujols in numbers even though Bay is 30. (He also hasn’t been in the league as long as Pujols) I know some of that can be attributed to the fact he was in Pittsburgh for 4+ seasons but that is still a tough sell.

Jason Bay??? you can’t be serious! Forget for a moment that with a similar age Jason’s numbers don’t begin to approach ALbert’s and their other intangibles….

Check this:

games at bats Runs Hits 2b 3b hr rbi ba
Pujols 8 year average 155 572 118 191 43 2 40 122 .344
Jason Bay Career high 162 599 111 183 44 6 35 109 .282

Sorry they don’t align but the bottom line is this: Jason is a fine player but his career year numbers are below Albert’s average. Albert is a career .344 hitter; Jason is at .282 and has never hit in any single year, Albert’s career average.

Wade

Do you even watch baseball? You would take Soriano in the bottom of the 9th in the World Series? Why don’t you take a gander at Soriano’s postseason numbers and see if you still would make that decision.

Jason Bay’s numbers aren’t even close, not even in the same league as Pujols’. A-Rod fine, but Bay? That’s a laugh. Bay has a .282/.375/.516 line compared to Pujols’ .334/.425/.624 averages. Bay is a good player but he isn’t even in Pujols’ league.

Im not saying one is better than the other, they are both good players. Lets just leave it at that, there is no need for immature name calling.

“but if I have to pick a guy to put at the plate in the bottom of the 9th in game seven of the World Series, Sorry Brian but I have to go with Big Papi or Alfonso Soriono on that one.”

Big Papi was real clutch this year, wasn’t he. And, he’s so great on the defensive end of things. Then, the truly wonderous statement. You’d rather have Alphonso Soriano at the plate in the 9th inning of Game 7 than Pujols? Why, because you want a quick strikeout? Have you ever seen Soriano at the plate? When he’s not hot, he might be the one guy you don’t want at the plate…in all of baseball. Have you seen him in the playoffs? He’s been absolutely, positively, pathetic with the Cubs. Maybe, you should sober up before you blog.

OK Wade, how about you provide some support for your claim of how Jason Bay is as good a player as Albert Pujols. I even give you some good comparisons

career batting average
Bay - .282
Pujols - .334
(ouch 52 points)

seasons with a sub .300 batting average
Bay - 4
Pujols - 0

seasons with a .300 or better batting average
Bay - 1
Pujols - 8
(PS Bay’s BEST avg is .306, Pujols’ WORST is .314)

career SLG%
Bay - .516
Pujols - .624
(ouch 108 points)

seasons with a sub .600 SLG%
Bay - 5
Pujols - 2

seasons with a SLG% of .600 or better
Bay - 0
Pujols - 6

career avg OPS
Bay - .891
Pujols - 1.049
(ouch 158 points)

seasons with OPS over 1.000
Bay - 0
Pujols - 6

career avg OPS+
Bay - 130
Pujols - 170
(ouch 40 points)

seasons with an OPS+ over 150
Bay - 0
Pujols - 8

top 10 MVP vote
Bay - 0
Pujols - 7

And from baseball-reference player page for each player some HOF comparitive stats

Black Ink: Batting (avg HOFer=27)
Bay - 1
Pujols - 24

Gray Ink: Batting (avg HOFer=144)
Bay - 26
Pujols - 163

HOF Standards:Batting (avg HOFer = 50
Bay - 20
Pujols - 42.4

HOF Monitor: Batting (Likely HOFer > 100)
Bay - 35.5
Pujols - 189

the floor is yours Wade, lets see some dazzle from you on how Jason Bay is just as good as Albert Pujols

(btw have you missed some of the articles written by sports journalists who have no affiliation with St Louis in any way shape or form (like Jayson Stark, Peter Gammons and Tim Kurkjian) about Albert Pujols and how he compares with the all time greats of the game? Can you link us to any similiar articles written about Jason Bay?)

Wade- “and I wouldnt even say that he is better than guys like Jason Bay or ARod yet.”
Not even sure if YOU know what you’re talking about anymore. Don’t start backtracking now. Better yet, don’t start if you don’t have the proof to back up your wacky conclusions!

SORIANO???

Now THAT is funny!!! Ever take a LOOK at Soriano’s postseason numbers??? Obviously not
career postseason for Soriano .213/.263/.299/.562

and he was REALLY bad in 2008 getting ONE hit in 14 AB for a .071 avg.

Bernie,

Don’t know. At the end of the season, it seemed like voters really had to search for alternatives to Pujols. But, I didn’t have that vote. I had Cy Young. You and me. People can bring their criticisms, their complaints, their ridicule for the Cy Young Award here …

I’ll try to be ready.

dg

Craig I hope you did not spend to much time writing and researching because i did not read that haha.

Of course you didn’t, Wade. Ignorance is bliss.

BTW Wade, here are the postseason stats for both Ortiz and Pujols

Ortiz .293/.401/.543/.944

Pujols .323/.429/.593/1.022

P.S. Just saw SLPW’s comment, so I see the criticism has already started. An idiot I am by osmosis or membership. Whichever. Swell. Mom would be proud. Track record, I contend, says otherwise — for the group and individual.

Here is a stat for you Craig

Pujols- 1 ring
Ortiz- 2 rings

maybe you need to rewind your tape of the 2004 WS to see who is more clutch.

OK Wade, I will simplify it for you

“If I made my comment on a general MLB board and not on a St. L one just about every response would agree with me.”

is true then how do you explain Pujols being in the top 10 in MVP voting every season(7), top 5 in 6 seasons(including his first 4 seasons), winning the MVP in 2005 and Jason Bay not cracking the top 10 in any his 4 full seasons and not cracking the top 25 in 2 of his 4 seasons?

nice measuring stick, you are aware that
A-Rod has 0 WS rings
Bay has 0 WS rings

and with your great logic of # of WS rings, Craig Counsell and Scott Spezio must be as great as David Ortiz since they both also have 2 WS rings

Wade - You’re wrong about Jason Bay. And you are wrong that a national audience would agree with you.

We’ve been distracted by Wade. Shame on us and enough already.

Pujols is, hands-down, the best player in MLB right now. There are people who are better at certain aspects of the game but no one is as good overall as Pujols.

KMac
Houston, TX

One also has to enjoy the irony of a Pittsburgh Pirate fan dissing anyone on the basis of the postseason (29 years and counting)

Dangerous measuring stick there, World Series rings.

Tino Martinez — 4 World Series rings.
Stan Musial — 3 World Series rings.

I could go on.

In decades to come, Albert will be talked about in the class with baseball’s greatest players of all time. I think everyone knows that. So with that, the Cardinals need to ensure the Albert never wears another MLB jersey, and should be a Cardinal from his first at bat until his last!

Wade is just a guy trying to stir you all up. Pujols is unfortunately (like Stan Musial was) going to always be viewed differently since he plays in “flyover” country. Musial NEVER gets the respect he deserves from the sports industry people that live on the East and West coasts.

You’d think with all the former StL sports people on ESPN, there wouldn’t be as much bias against anyone outside of NY, Boston, and LA (Chicago also gets a “free pass” since the Cubs are so perenially lame).

The new FM sports station needs a blabbering jerk for the morning drive and Wade has all of the qualifications to apply — skewed logic and half-$%# facts that he doesn’t want to apply in all cases. Go have another beer with your know-it-all loser buddines Wade.

Jason Bay?????????????????? Um. Maybe concentrate on the Steelers and leave the baseball alone. Probably wanna go ahead and sit the next few plays out.

Not trying to stir everyone up, I just think Pujols is overrated.

Yet you offer nothing in support of your assessment.

How is Pujols overrated? What is the comparison? What is the measuring stick to evaluate whether he is overrated or not?

Wade, Someone already compared the stats of Jason Bay…silly assumption by you. I thought I would compare the first 8 full season for A-ROD to Pujol’s first 8.

A-ROD: H-1491, RBI-969, HR-340, SO-933, AVG-.310, BB-550

Pujols: H-1531, RBI-977, HR-319, SO-506, AVG-.335, BB-696

Pujols beats A-Rod in every category except home runs, 21, and has nearly half as many strike outs. If you ask any manager in either league, “If you could have any active player, who would it be?” I can bet they all would say Pujols.

Grant it A-Rod is a Hall of Famer, you can put him up there with Pujols. But Jason Bay? come on…

Pujols is deff one of the best players in the league but here is a list of players who are just as good if not better

Manny, Ortiz, Bay, ARod, Sorino, H Rameriz, Reyes, D Lee, Crawford, Hamilton, Howard, Wright, Pedroia, Youk, Tex, Vlad

Just curious Wade, but do you also think that A-Rod is overrated?

Why or why not?

I’m really thinking of trading in my Honda for a Yugo….

Is that Mira Sorino? Absolutely hotter than Albert!

Mantle was a career .298 hitter.

I am guessing that if you follow Wade’s logic that A-Rod is over rated too.

Congratulations, Wade. You admitted that you didn’t bother reading the hard statistical evidence that refuted your thesis that Albert Pujols has not had a career equal to that of the amazing Jason Bay. You are, by your own admission, willfully ignorant.

KMac, you’re right that this is a distraction, but why shame on us? Who gives a crap if people want to banter with random ignoramuses?

Also, when you say “certain aspects,” I’d say that’s a pretty small subset: pitching, game-calling (catching), maybe middle infielding.

What else is there? At the plate, it’s Pujols, A-Rod, a chasm, then everybody else. Howard hits more HRs, but that’s primarily because he gets more pitches to hit, which in turn is because pitchers know he’ll pretty much swing at anything. It’s a cost/benefit thing: If a pitcher knows he’s significantly more likely to strike out than hit safely (and four times more likely to K than homer), they’re apt to take their chances and go for the whiff, as opposed to a guy who has three times more hits than strikeouts (that would be our Albert).

Howard’s strengths as a hitter are remarkable, but his numbers are inflated, somewhat perversely, thanks to his liabilities. To bring this full circle: Ryan Howard, in fact, is essentially Jason Bay with an extra scoop of power. (Bay strikes out a lot, too.)

Interesting that Wade chooses to mention Alfonso Soriano again as a player who is “just as good if not better” than Albert Pujols

first fact to note Soriano(1/7/76) is FOUR years older than Pujols (1/16/80)

Soriano(10 seasons) .282/.329/.518/.847 (116 OPS+)
797 runs - 270 HR - 705 RBI

Pujols(8 seasons) .334/.425/.624/1.049 (170 OPS+)
947 runs - 319 HR - 977 RBI

Soriano is as good or better? HOW?

baseball-reference.com

Check it out, Wade. All the information you need about every player, well, ever.

Knowledge is not something to avoid.

I’m a huge Pujols fan, so obviously my opinion is biased and I realize but when I read Wade’s comments, but when I read

“[“but if I have to pick a guy to put at the plate in the bottom of the 9th in game seven of the World Series”] Sorry Brian but I have to go with Big Papi or Alfonso Soriono on that one.”

that really made me chuckle… Soriano struck out swinging on 3 pitches to record the final out in the Dodger’s sweep of the Cubs in this year’s NLDS.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_10_04_chnmlb_lanmlb_1&mode=gameday

Nice choice, Wade.

And as for Papi? Game seven vs Rays, 0-3 with 2 SO and 4 LOB.

Even without all of the great numbers that he has, he is the greatest player to ever play the game for he knows exactly WHO is responsible for his greatness and he never fails to thank HIM after every play that he is involved in, successful or not……..

Guys, I think we’re working a little too hard to disprove Wade’s point. Let’s keep it simple.

314 MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYERS just voted Pujols the best player in major league baseball for the 2nd time in his 8 year career. Jason Bay doesn’t even merit consideration.

That sort of says it all, doesn’t it?

Uderstandable how someone from Pittsburgh would have such a limited knowledge of baseball.

“wade wrote: Pujols is deff one of the best players in the league but here is a list of players who are just as good if not better

Manny, Ortiz, Bay, ARod, Sorino, H Rameriz, Reyes, D Lee, Crawford, Hamilton, Howard, Wright, Pedroia, Youk, Tex, Vlad”

from SI.com Oct 1 2008
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/joe_posnanski/10/01/posnanski.pujols/index.html

Perhaps there were once genuine grounds for debate about Pujols’ talent. Not anymore. He is, in my mind, the best player in baseball, and I don’t think that anyone approaches him. OPS+ is a pretty good statistic — it takes a player’s OPS (on-base percentage plus slugging percentage) and compares it to the rest of the league. A 100 OPS+ is exactly average.

Over the last five years, here are the Top 5 players in OPS+.

1. Albert Pujols, 173

2. David Ortiz, 154

3. Chipper Jones, 153

4. Alex Rodriguez, 153

5. Manny Ramirez, 152.

So, well, that’s not especially close. OK, so you can look at runs created, Bill James’ invention that basically measures how many runs a player, um, you know, created:

1. Albert Pujols, 756

2. Alex Rodriguez, 682

3. David Ortiz, 671

4. Lance Berkman, 646

5. Mark Teixeira, 627.

So, that’s not really all that close either. Maybe you’re old school. Maybe you don’t like these newfangled statistics. Maybe you prefer batting average.

1. Albert Pujols, .335

2. Ichiro Suzuki, .332

3. Vladimir Guerrero, .323

4. Matt Holiday, .319

5. Todd Helton, .315.

And so on. He has the best on-base percentage the last five years. He has the highest slugging percentage the last five years. He has the most total bases, the most extra base hits, the most times on base. And this year, despite missing a few games, he probably had his greatest offensive season. With offense down all around baseball, the guy hit .357, walked 104 times (while striking out 54), banged 44 doubles and 37 homers, scored 100 and drove in 116. There are any number of advanced stats — Value Over Replacement Player, Equivalent Average, Isolated Power, Offensive Win Percentage and so on — that show Pujols was the Usain Bolt of baseball this year.

That seems to be a trend: Many baseball fans just don’t seem to think about him. Pujols’ greatness is so easily apparent — he hits, he walks, he hits for power, he plays outstanding defense at first base, he makes winning plays just about every day…….And maybe that gets to the heart of why he’s sometimes overlooked. Maybe he’s so good it’s boring. Maybe Pujols’ greatness, like a plane landing safely, doesn’t make the news

FIVE YEARS is a long time period, so once again Wade the question comes back to HOW is Pujols overrated? What is the measuring stick and how do all those players you say are as good or better rank compared to Pujols with the same measuring stick?

Albert you simply the bset I have ever seen , You are El Hombre Thanks for being a Cardinal and If DeWitt and company dont lock you up to a LIFETIME contract They are CRAZY!!!!!!

Religion is the opiate of the masses.

Oh, and on the baseball front, Pujols is only 28? Yeah, anyway. Either he’s 32 or in 2003 he was juicing to the gills. He’s about 80% the size he was then - and no, he’s not leaner now. Too bad his biceps tendon got shredded from his steroid use. I was in Chicago for the ‘03 All-Star game and watched him rip dingers to all fields in the derby - amazing. Now, he rarely, if ever gets a ball out the opposite way. They just fall on the warning track. Even when he pulls them out, they aren’t the moon shots they once were. So, juicer or older, but definitely one or the other.

Any PROOF of either of your accusations there Richard?

No?

What a surprise

Wade is just an idiot ignore him. He knows nothing about baseball.

Yes, Albert is the complete player. I have a paragraph in my book Baseball(My Opinion), about Albert being the best complete player in MLB right now. In my truthful estimation he out shines A Rod in every respect and especially when it comes to chemistry with teammates. I think all you baseball fans out there would really enjoy my book, try it , you’ll like it !!!!

You are all just being biased because you are fans of the guy. I have watched a lot of baseball in my day and the thing with Pujols is that he puts up these monster numbers in the most meaningless situations. For example his team will be winning or losing by like 5-10 runs and he will hit some garbage homers. And in the late innings of close games, forget about him. He might as well not even be in the line up.

We all know that triples are the most important and underrated stat in baseball. Here were the NL rankings for this year.

Triples
Reyes-NYM 19
Drew-ARI 11
Lewis-SFG 11
Rollins-PHI 9
Victorino-PHI 8
Braun-MIL 7
Phillips-CIN 7
Velez-SFG 7
Weeks-MIL 7
Young-ARI 7

Pujols had a big fat ZERO triples this year. Jason Bay had two triples, which mathematically is infinitely more than 0, but just to be nice I’ll say that proves Bay is only twice as good as Pujols. Even David Ortiz had one, which must have been terribly exciting for the guys at SportsCenter.

Technically, Soriano and A-Rod had zero triples, too, but that’s not their fault. They were denied triples by Cowtown bias against major markets. Also, they had more than enough home runs and strikeouts to make up for their lack of triples.

LOL, Wade your WILLFUL ignorance (either that or blatant bias) is amusing.

So now you want to contend ”And in the late innings of close games, forget about him. He might as well not even be in the line up.” Remember earlier in this thread when you praised Ortiz as being ”clutch”? They do keep and break out stats for ”clutch stats” want to see some comparisons?

how about close & late-career (7th inning or later with team tied, ahead by one or tying run on deck)
Ortiz .279/.382/.564/946 (very nice)
Pujols .315/.440/.615/1.055 (a little nicer)

some other players you mentioned
Jason Bay .232/.351/.438/.790
Soriano .275/.338/.449/.787
Manny .276/.410/.491/.901
A-Rod .279/.375/.530/.905
H Ramirez .319/.409/.524/.933
Jose Reyes .276/.347/.384/.731
D Lee .300/.398/.504/.902
Crawford .254/.301/.371/.672
Hamilton .252/.355/.457/.812
Howard .247/.394/.521/.915
Wright .307/.407/.483/.890
Pedroia .328/.376/.471/.847
Youklis .263/.378/.436/.815
Teixeira .282/.379/.555/.933
Vlad .325/.420/.547/.967

hmmm, the BEST OPS of all those players that YOU said were ”as good or better”, the ONLY .600+ SLG% and one of the best batting averages yet ”might as well not even be in the line up”?????

salt with your crow Wade?

Craig we all know by now that you are a HUGE Pujols fan and I can not help but to feel that because of that it is clouding your view of other players who are equally as good if not better than Pujols.

So Wade do you still stand behind your claim regarding Pujols in the late innings of close games, that he should not even be in the lineup? It was YOU who made that claim did you not? If you truly beleive that to be true, why do you not make even a token effort to defend your claim?

Wade, interesting choice to say that someone else’s view is “clouded” The textbook definition of a clouded view is someone who stubbornly holds onto a position in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Those people also shy away from defending their view. If you beleive so strongly that what you say is true, why would you repeatedly decline to provide support for your view?

Wade-
you say that all these cardinals fans are biased in pujols’s favor that it clouds their view of other players. well maybe your judgement is clouded because your team fails you every year and pujols is generally more than effective against you (i only say more than effective because i don’t have the specific numbers to prove my point but it is safe to say that he does well against you since that is the trend against all most of baseball). are you so ignorant that you continue to ignore all the evidence provided to you in other post while failing to provide evidence of your own to prove your point? what kind of intelligent human being does that unless you’re just arguing just for the sake of arguing. before you make another comment, make sure you can back it up with evidence so that you don’t continue to make yourself look so stupid.

Wade, to a true baseball fan your remark is ridiculous. A true fan of baseball loves the game and appreciates all the landmark events that happen, no matter what teams, what players. You appreciate the competition, the memories and you pay homage to those deserving your respect. Albert Pujols is on his way to setting his name in history, because he is a complete player and he continually sets his standards high and meets unbelievable statistics every year. What he is doing is remarkable and is on the level of many great players of the past. He loves the game, he loves his team, he has more heart than anyone I have ever watched in my 54 years on this earth.

I dont understand why you all think that I am hating on Pujols. I understand that he is a very good player, I just feel however that it is pre mature to consider him one of the best ever, and I also feel there are many players right now who are equally as good if not better.

Fuhrig and all of you others, that goes for you,too.

WSW,

I always warn people that sarcasm is the hardest thing to convey in writing, and I should have taken my own advice. I hate to parse my own comedy, but here goes.

“We all know that triples are the most important and underrated stat in baseball.”
Aside from the patent stupidity of that assertion, notice that if we all know triples are the most important stat in baseball, how could they also be underrated?

Pujols had ZERO triples this year. Who cares? It’s just about the only hitting stat where he trailed Jason Bay. Two triples to none makes Bay twice as good? Did you think anyone could seriously make that argument, even in the context of The Wader?

The rest of it was equally preposterous. I even worked in a Cowtown reference, if you recall Jeffrey “Flap Down” Leonard from the ‘87 NLCS. Sorry if I was too subtle.

Dont be sorry Fuhrig, WSW wasnt smart enouph to pick up on that one haha

Wade wrote”I just feel however that it is pre mature to consider him one of the best ever” Well you see Wade, when you FIRST made that comment all the way back on page 1, the 5th comment posted in this thread NO ONE had said Pujols was one of the best ever, the Sporting News author said “Pujols is on a trajectory to finish his career among the best to play the game.” Notice the KEY words trajectory to finish not he is NOW one of the best ever

You also made the ridiculous comment that Pujols wasn’t better than Jason Bay (something you have pointedly and repeatedly declined from making even a FEEBLE attempt at supporting)

Wade wrote “I dont understand why you all think that I am hating on Pujols”

Please clarify for us how one should interpret these words written by YOU
Wade wrote at 8:27am Oct 23, 2008 “the thing with Pujols is that he puts up these monster numbers in the most meaningless situations. For example his team will be winning or losing by like 5-10 runs and he will hit some garbage homers. And in the late innings of close games, forget about him. He might as well not even be in the line up.”

Thats not “hating on Pujols”? Explain

Craig thats not hating………its the truth

Truth can be proven, where is your proof Wade?

I dont have time to look up all the numbers because im at work but if you look up Bays postseason numbers and compare them with Pujols you will see who is better in the clutch

And what does Jason Bay have to do with you proving ““the thing with Pujols is that he puts up these monster numbers in the most meaningless situations. For example his team will be winning or losing by like 5-10 runs and he will hit some garbage homers. And in the late innings of close games, forget about him. He might as well not even be in the line up.”

Seems the ONLY question there is about Albert Pujols and how he performs in the late innings of close games.

let me refresh your memory

close & late - PA in the 7th or later with the batting team tied, ahead by one, or the tying run at least on deck.

Pujols career stats - close & late
.315/.440/.615/1.055

“Dont be sorry Fuhrig, WSW wasnt smart enouph to pick up on that one haha”
- Wade

Um, yeah, Wade, he missed the fact that I was making fun of you. Don’t gloat. Sheesh.

and thank you for ignoring my great and valid point.

Postseason? Bay never had any postseason before this year, when he did hit .341 in 11 games. That hardly makes him better than Pujols, who has hit .323 in 53 postseason games. Ask Brad Lidge if Albert is clutch.

Wade wrote “and thank you for ignoring my great and valid point”

gotta love the irony and blatant double standard

I just looked up the post season numbers and when it is all said and done I would rather have Bay up with the game on the line. That still doesnt mean that I would rather have him on my team over Pujols but he is a better clutch hitter and a better defender.

“Ask Brad Lidge if Albert is clutch.” Why not ask the Red Sox how clutch he was in 04 haha and its so nice to see Craig finally coming around to his senses.

Wade just call up your Pittsburg sportscasters and FSN announcers and even Boston or New York sportscasters and ask them Pujols or Bay or Pujols or A-rod or Papi and they all will say Pujols. Thats not bias thats the facts. Papi is not the same player he was and if you watched this years playoffs you would have noticed that. And by the way Pujols won 2004 NLCS Mvp. He must have won that award because he was not very clutch??

Says a great deal about you Wade that you would stoop to make a post pretending to be someone else. It is also a violation of the terms of service to post false or misleading information. Since your ISP and email address are not the same as mine not difficult to expose your chicanery.

It is also pretty obvious from the content and writing style of my posts in contrast to the content and writing style of your posts that the post was not written by me.

Wade,

You still haven’t answered the simplest of questions. If Pujols is over-rated and other players are better, then why did 314 “major league baseball players” vote Pujols as the best player in MLB for the 2nd time in 8 seasons?

You keep saying that the board is biased because we’re Cardinal/Pujols fans, but how do you explain the vote of other players?

And as for the ‘04 series, Pujols hit .333. Someone who understands baseball might understand that Rolen and Edmonds going a combined 1 for 30 might have played a role in the series outcome.

Clutch? What do you mean clutch…? Hub do u even know what that means. You really need to get your facts straight before you start spouting out useless garbage.

I’ve always thought it’s easier to point out somebody who isn’t clutch than it is to identify somebody who is. Perhaps “clutch” is consistent performance in situations where others have been known to wilt.

Since Wade is such a fan of situational performance, maybe he’d like to explain why Bay was 1 for 9 in the 3 elimination games Boston played this post-season. Shouldn’t a “clutch” performance have done a little more?

Real mature Craig…I don’t know who wrote that post but it sure as heck was not me. I don’t like being accused of things like that. For all I know you wrote it in some childish plan to make me look bad.

The definition of clutch is 4 hr’s, 9 rbi’s, .500 avg, .563 obp and 1.000 slg in 7 game series vs. houston in 04′ nlcs. That may be pretty useless information for a cubs fan or a pirates fan but to me that is pretty relevant. So I won’t just focus on 1 series how about in 53 postseason games for Mr. Pujols 13hr’s, 35 rbi’s and a .323 avg.

This is brilliant. Craig and Wade are like Bird Land’s very own Statler and Waldorf. While you lose me on the Soriano=clutch debate, I’ve enjoyed very much the give, take, bark, bite, Papi, Pujols, zig, zag. The balcony is yours.

DG, it was entertaining until Wade decided to resort to juvenile behavior and make posts pretending to be me. The close time frame of the spoof posts allegedly by me and Wade’s posts as well as other circumstantial evidence amke it unlikely it was anyone else. The last spoofed post is pretty blatant as not being from me. It was also be stupid of me to “make those posts in an attempt to make Wade look bad” as email addresses, IP addresses and ISP providers are pretty easy to check.

I hope that the moderators take the appropriate action to the culprit for his violation(s) of the terms of service.

Craig that was not meet please dont make personal attacks towards me. Not once have I taken a personal shot at yourself or Larry.

Craig,

Proof of steroid use? See 2003-4 vs now. Power is down (no, not HR’s, where they are and how deep). Tendon damage. Hair loss during ‘03. 20 lbs of muscle gone. What more do you need, to see an actual needle, cream, or tab with your own two eyes? Grow up.

I’m not the only one who has noticed: http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/03/dan_patrick_and.html

Of course, I thought there was mention that he wanted to “lighten up” because of his foot problems. How convenient. Find a picture of him in 03-05 and compare it to now - not even close. His upper body has shrunk considerably. His lower body is still pretty stout and at his age, he’s hit his natural power-making ability so the numbers will be there . . . of course, where those numbers come from (pulling, hitting up the middle, or driving to the opposite field) have changed.

Your “proof” doesn’t hold up well, then anecdotal evidence rarely does, its not even slightly compelling

I am sure Patrick and Olberman have extensive backgrounds in human physiology and kiniesology unlike someone like Lou Schuler
http://stlcardinals.scout.com/2/353285.html

And I got a REALLY good laugh out of you citing HAIR LOSS, you suppose my classmate at age 18 was heavy into steroid use since he had significant hair loss before he graduated HS. Hair loss, yep now THERE is a good proof.

It is great to see a man who is such a great person, is involved with many charitable orginizations, a great family man, dedicated to his faith in God, and an all around good example for others get recognized for his tallent and ability. There are others who have better numbers in certain categories. Ryan Howard had more home runs and RBIs. Chipper Jones edged out Pujols in the BAVE category. There are others as well but overall if you average out all offensive and deffensive categories Pujulos is clearly the best. He is an amazing player and I feel he will only continue to amaze us in the future.

In all fairness, AP’s hair loss wasn’t cited as evidence apart from the other pieces of information. Parsing it out isn’t exactly a powerful argument. As for anecdotal evidence, this isn’t a court of law and physical characteristics and observable phenomena aren’t purely anecdotal if they aren’t just my observations. Even if there is no “control” for Pujols, we do have a before and after. Most adults make judgments with imperfect information and they’re entirely valid (and often correct). The need to see something with your own two eyes to make a judgment is a sign of intellectual immaturity.

As for Schuler, if you read the article, it says that he really isn’t sure of what to make of Pujols, although I find his comments about “he should have bigger shoulders and arms” seems unusually weak. Lou is certainly smart enough to know that training protocols and genetics would dictate development to a large degree. What Lou did say is that he just doesn’t “see it” in AP. While I know what he’s trying to say, I don’t agree. Obviously AP isn’t a bloated, red-faced, big-headed juiceball, but the size differential is quite significant and I’m sure that if Lou took a look at some photos he may start to doubt his own assertion. He’s also a bit of a homer - keep that in mind. Just kidding, although Lou is from the Lou ;o)

The question I keep coming back is what if AP’s use wasn’t deca, test, hgh, and our favorite oral trenbolone compliments of BALCO? What if it was limited to short-acting orals which wouldn’t increase size to the same degree as most injectibles but would most certainly increase strength big time (t-bol, winstrol, anavar, etc.). What if he’d avoid having a pumpkin head by not taking hgh? He’d be able to have greatly increased strength, a mild increase in size (10-15 lbs), very few (if any) of the telltale signs of usage, and the ability to test negative in short order. If I was going run a cycle for baseball, that would be exactly how I would do it. My guess is that if AP ran anything injectible it was in the off-season (maybe test or injectible winnie which all could contribute to the tendon issues). He could then maintain (not all the size, but all the strength) with a relatively low dose of orals. In the alternate, he could just cycle orals year-round. I’m sure that Lou would agree with those possibilities.

On the other hand, maybe AP is a freak - I happen to think that whether or not he has ever used. In my opinion, speculation as to his use is proper. We don’t know for certain (which is not the point), but what we do know is that a lot of guys did use. We have AP’s numbers, we have photos, we have some observations of his power to the opposite field, we have shredded tendons, and we have some well-earned skepticism. Just because a guy does great work away from the game and prays every day doesn’t prove much these days.

Anyway, I won’t be logging on to continue this conversation so feel free to flame away. I don’t derive my self-esteem from “winning” arguments on websites.

FYI: I chose test because it increases strength while decreasing collagen formation and winstrol because while it increases collagen deposition, the connective tissues have weakened cross-linking (thicker but weaker tendons). HGH would help offset these issues, but since I never saw signs of significant hgh use (crown and mandible growth, etc), I thought that maybe he may have used low dose deca, primo, or anavar to offset those sides.

Go Cards!