The Climate for Edgar Renteria
TOWER GROVE — Back in 1997, a young shortstop named Edgar Renteria was still a few days away from a defining moment in his career — that title-winning single to center field in the 11th inning of the World Series’ Game 7 — when he took a seat at a press conference. Renteria and the upstart Florida Marlins were the surprise winners of the National League pennant, the wild-card team made good, and they came in to Cleveland for Game 3 tied 1-1 in the series.
Naturally, the first question Renteria fielded was about the … cold.
Q. Edgar, what are your experiences in cold weather, what do you think of playing in very cold weather?
EDGAR RENTERIA: Yes, I spent three years playing in cold weather in the Minor Leagues and I love playing in cold weather, I love the cold.
Q. Why do you like playing in cold weather?
EDGAR RENTERIA: I don’t know, I just enjoy it. I like it a lot.
Maybe the transcription is wrong, because that answer has certainly changed. Renteria doesn’t “like it a lot.” Renteria likes it hot.
Or, at least warm.
SS Edgar Renteria: Cozy as a Cardinal?
As the Hot Stove season simmers, Renteria was among the players to officially file for free agency Monday, a few days after the Detroit Tigers notified him they would not pick up his option for 2009. The St. Louis Cardinals are in need of a shortstop and are intrigued by the idea of reuniting with Renteria, who was an All-Star and Gold Glove shortstop for the Cardinals through 2004. Renteria, who is 33, is coming off an uninspiring season with the Tigers, where he hit .270 (second lowest in his career), slugged .382 (his lowest since 2001) and played erratically enough in the field for some to wonder if his career his tilting toward third base.
There are some worrisome indicators for Renteria’s career curve.
But there is also a compelling trend in his statistics.
He appears allergic to the American League.
Of his 1,860 major-league games, Renteria has played 291 of them for an American League team — over a grand total of two seasons. Two disappointing seasons. Back in 2005, he committed 30 errors and hit .276 with 100 strikeouts for Boston, who wooed him away from the Cardinals in the Shortstop Carousel of ‘05. Traded back to an AL team last winter, he struggled again. His splits illustrate this NL leaning:
CAREER: 7,140 AB … 1,090 R … 127 HR … 817 RBI … 241 E … .290 BA … .405 SLG
IN AL: 1,126 AB … 169 R … 18 HR … 124 RBI … 46 E … .274 BA … .384 SLG
IN NL: 6,014 AB … 921 R … 109 HR … 692 RBI … 195 E … .310 BA … .410 SLG
The numbers are striking, especially in the batting average. But it was while digging through these numbers that something struck me — the georgaphy of Renteria’s career. Consider the two American League teams Renteria has played for would be considered cold-weather clubs, their summer regular season bookended by a chilly start in April and a chilly finish in September. Two of the three National League teams that Renteria has played for are warm-climate clubs, Florida to start his career and Atlanta, where he regained the performance Boston froze out of him.
It may not be the league. It’s location.
Location. Location. Location.
I don’t mean to go all Chuck Todd on you here with a bunch of numbers and the trends they tell, but this morning I decided to dig into the cold-weather concept here as a possible explanation of Renteria’s struggles in the AL. I went through Renteria’s career stadium by stadium and in 10 current ballparks that play in the north (Camden, Fenway, Yankee …), he’s done fine: .297 average and a .426 slugging percentage. Three retired cold-weather ballparks — County, Three Rivers and Veterans — were not as friendly with a .240 average and .326 slugging. But that’s cherry-picking stats to prove a point. In seven warm-weather ballparks (the Chase and Turner fields and Dolphin Stadiums of baseball), he’s a .287 hitter with a .387 slugging.
On a trusty yellow legal pad (my own dry-erase board), I tracked a whole bunch of these numbers looking for a warm-weather trend (Florida! Florida! Florida!). Checking into his former home ballparks is somewhat more helpful than just grouping ballparks by geography:
Dolphin … 229 games … .286/.355/.377
Busch II … 469 games … .289/.347/.411
Fenway … 88 games … .282/.341/.393
Turner … 170 games … .304/.363/.423
Comerica … 77 games … .331/.373/.451
Those numbers could illustrate the evolution of a career as much as the performance in a specific place. The stats at Detroit’s Comerica Park are especially intriguing as they show the improvement he made offensively through this past season.
But the ballpark research is faulty because it doesn’t do it by temp. It’s a rough and sketchy sampling.
August is August is August, whether the ballpark is Fenway or the Big A or Safeco.
And we do know that Renteria really digs August.
One of the real leaders of the Cardinals’ core that led the club to such success earlier this decade, Renteria told reporters when he came to Atlanta that he dislikes hitting in the cold and that the weather might have been a reason why he was so chilly toward Boston. He’s hinted at other times about not liking to play in the colder months, especially early in April.
Renteria is a mid-summer hitter, and that was especially the case when playing for an American League team. He hit .342 last August and is a .298 hitter in his career in summer’s hottest month. His lowest months by batting average are April and September, with .282 and .275 respectively. His slugging percentage is lowest in September with a .384. Consider his month-by-month averages from his career and from Detroit in 2008 and Boston in 2005:
APRIL … Bos .228 … Det .314 … Career .282
MAY … Bos .354 … Det .235 … Career .288
JUNE … Bos .231 … Det .256 … Career .286
JULY … Bos .274 … Det … .220 … Career .309
AUG … Bos .342 … Det .294 … Career .298
SEPT … Bos .229 … Det .305 … Career .275
Cold Snap: Renteria bats in Detroit
There are many ways to read these numbers and there is a significant margin for error either way. Could be Renteria tires. Could be the way the schedule broke for the Tigers in 2008. Could be. Could be. The sore thumb sticking out there in this argument is Renteria’s .314 average and .448 slugging percentage in April 2008, while with Detroit. Wasn’t April chilly at Comerica? Explain that.
Easy.
Again, turn to the trusty yellow legal pad. In the last week of April, the Tigers played at Toronto — an indoor ballpark, the kind not factored into the above discussion of ballpark — and in pleasant, mid-60-degree to 70-degree weather against Texas and the LA Angels. In those 10 games, Renteria hit .368 and slugged .578. Of the 34 hits Renteria had in the first month of last season, 14 came in that 10-game span. In the “cold” games, Renteria hit .278 and slugged .361.
Detroit played 15 games last April in temperatures that were below 60 degrees, and only three of their outdoor games were warmer than 70 degrees.
The shortstops available to the Cardinals via free agency include incumbent glove Cesar Izturis; Rafael Furcal, a possible lineup-changer with his speed and ability to hit leadoff; Orlando Cabrera, a steady contributor and slick glove who was also part of the ‘05 Carousel; and Renteria, who brings the comfort of familiarity. But is his game also familiar? Is there a feeling that Renteria would thrive in a return to the National League, like he did back in 2006 with Atlanta? Will Renteria warm with the weather …
The Cardinals, like Detroit, played 15 games at temps below 60 this past April.
But they also had 14 games warmer than 60 degrees.
***
Off to vote …
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Derrick Goold said he was going to Mizzou for capital-J journalism, but after growing up in the Time Zone Baseball Forgot he was really drawn to MU sitting between two major-league cities. Goold joined the Post-Dispatch in 2001 after working for The Times-Picayune and Rocky Mountain News, covering sports from LSU to NHL and every level of baseball in between. 
In his youth, Reneria was a guy who had numbers. But too consistanly, he bounced out to short or struck out while playing with to little energy at short to keep up with our youth movement. I say, let someone else pay him.
I’m not opposed to bringing Renteria back, but it has to be at a discount, otherwise, I’d rather see a younger player in the position (Greene?). I wonder if Edgar would agree to play 2nd base?
What would Renteria cost, DG?
My guess is that it would certainly be more than what the Cards would pay Cesar Izturis for similar production.
Izturis: BA. .263, OBP .319, .309 SLG
Renteria:BA. .270, OBP .317, .382 SLG
The only stat here that is drastically different is .SLG. Izturis is one of the most underrated defensive SS in the league, and Renteria doesn’t cover as much ground as he did when he was last in a Cardinal uniform.
I’m not saying that Izturis is the best option for SS in 2009, but I have a feeling Edgar will be asking for more than what his production warrants.
I’m not a big Furcal fan, given the fact he is injury prone and has never produced over the course of 162 games.
I’d like to see the Cards give thought to Cleveland SS Jhonny Peralta…
he’s done. needs to be at a huge discount to play 2b
Renteria will cost more than Izturis, obviously. Maybe twice as much. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it takes the same length of contract to get Renteria as it would for Izturis. Furcal and Cabrera are in the costly-and-lengthy category at this position …
This is another joke that is being played on the fans! This is another example how management is not going to spend a dime on good young talent this offseason. Renteria’s numbers have been terrible for what he is going to ask, if this is our solution to an “impact bat” for the infield we better keep Izturis and get a Pitcher. Did not Renteria reject a very lucreative contract a after 04 so he could go to Boston for a few million more some thing like 42 million over 40 million? Not for sure if those are the exact numbers but it shows where is loyalty is. Now if he was coming off an injury then it would be a done deal. This is shaping up to be another 3rd or 4th place finish behind the cubs and brewers.
Why can’t the Cardinals try to work a deal w/ a young upcoming SS that might be able to play for years to come. Work a deal. Bring someone else in that has upside. Just TIRED of this type of signing. But….as long as the sheep keep coming to the park and the team stays around .500, ownership isn’t going to do anything to bring in talent.
I think Edgar would be a good fit for the Cardinals and he already has proven to be a good fit with Tony. I say go for since the odds of us getting Farcal are slim
St. Louis has a tendency to want to go forward by going back. Edgar had a good run here, but he’s past his prime defensively and wouldn’t be the “impact” bat the Cardinals need.
Re-sign Izturis and trade a surplus outfielder and pitcher for an upgrade at second base.
What a waste of an article and time. The last thing the Cardinals need to do is to bring another “used to be” player to the team. Yes, Renteria was good, but why pay another player a huge salary for a low production. How about spending our money on young players who are reaching their prime instead of passing it? The Card are known much too well for picking up players who were once good thinking that “for a discounted price” they can recreate his old production. Start thinking young and long term, not gambling yet another season away to players that are 30+, overpaid, and sitting on the DL all season!
Since no real “impact bat” will probably truly be available, I much prefer to “lengthen” the quality of the lineup. Lopez and Renteria would do that. There wouldn’t be the dead spots we saw so often last year.
Schumaker or Rasmus
Lopez
Pujols
Ludwick
Ankiel
Glaus
Molina
pitcher
Renteria
looks MUCH better than last year, to me
Tell the chubbie tootsie roll to stay away from StL
We clearly in a stretch of incredible shortstops, from the NL East with its loaded group of the Three Rs — Rollins, Reyes and Ramirez — to Troy Tulowitzki, Stephen Drew and JJ Hardy. Teams are building around shortstops who can …
– field the position
– provide substantial production
– hit with power or change games with speed or both.
The Cardinals, alas, are off the lead lap at this position. There are a few comments in here saying they must get up to speed, land a young shortstop to fill the need, etc. Well where? The free agents don’t fit the young quota (Furcal has that back injury that ages him) and the trades just aren’t there. Khalil Greene? His name came up only in the rumors about landing Jake Peavy. The Cardinals don’t have enough to get Peavy, let alone a package of Peavy and Greene.
That’s a bad trade when it comes to baseball cards.
So what? Better yet, so who?
DG:
Health could be a question for a lot of players, but I’m not a fan of Furcal’s defense. Too many erratic throws with that cannon he owns.
After watching Orlando Cabrera for a few games this past season, I wouldn’t want him hitting leadoff if we sign him. He had no patience, often swinging at the 1st or 2nd pitch. That’s not what you’d like to see from a true leadoff man.
Tyler Greene has had a good AFL showing so far, but there’s no way the Cards are going to committ to him as the starting SS based on a good few weeks.
I think Khalil Greene might be a nice buy-low candidate if we can make a small trade for him.
But I really believe we’re stuck with not a lot of great options, and they’ll probably settle for the best they can do right now and try to make up the offense somewhere else (2B).
Some of you people need to wake up and smell the coffee.
1. There aren’t much better options. Renterias .270/10/55 (below career average)…which by the way would be an upgrade from anything else we have, would still help the Cardinals.
2. The sudden “counting on Tyler Green” crowd that has emerged. I guess it’s because Mo dropped his name in the online chat. Let’s get real. Take a look at his numbers.
3. Renteria’s defense hasn’t suddenly dissapeared. In fact he is still a league average, to a bit above average shortstop.
If everyone is holding out for better than Renteria, I think there are going to be some dissapointed people in St.Louis.
Resigning Renteria is like asking the girl who wouldn’t go to the dance with you to be your wife. There is nothing he has done since leaving here that would make one think he is as good as he once was and wasn’t on the downside of his career all St. Louis represents to him is a paycheck. K or T Greene would both be preferable. Izturis is still a better fielder. SS has always been considered a defensive position first and a bonus if there is a contribution to the offense. Furcol would fulfill that. On November 4th Vote NO on Renteria.
Renteria hasn’t done anything since leaving here?
Driving in 100 runs twice. All Star game. Hitting .332 in 07.
You’ve got to try a little harder.
I should have said, had 100 runs, not drove in.
DG,
So who? you’re exactly right. Good options at SS and 2B are not to be found. We need to weather the storm with someone cheap, like Itzuris and spend the money on left field. Compare Itzuris and Schumakers splits. Itzuris hit .290 against lefties this year, granted with no power. He did steal 20 some bases. Schu is a .300 hitter, who plays great defense, but in LF he needs to be doing more than that, either stealing 50 bases a year or hitting for power. Schu has no power and doesn’t steal bases. That is maybe ok for middle infield or even center, but not for left field. He is a great 4th outfielder, a la So Taguchi, but not much more.
@emc2013: The only thing about Peralta is his glove. Cleveland likes his bat, but they’ve been talking about moving him to third base, in hopes he would be less of a defensive liability there. He may or may not be comparable defensively to a Renteria or an Eckstein at short at this point, but he would definitely be a step down from Izturis.
The other question is what the Cardinals would have to offer. The Cards could dangle an outfielder, but Cleveland already has a surplus of outfielders.
I would much rather have furcal, even though he is fragile. Has way better speed than renteria, better arm, just as good defensively and when he’s healthy has very good offensive production.
I would rather swing the deal for Khalil Greene. It shouldn’t take much in the way of prospects since SD is dying to shed payroll. He offers pop. Good numbers outside of Petco and a far superior glove to Renteria. He might not hit for much average but then again neither did Izturis. His pop would make him a far more productive hitter than Izturis is. Also, maybe a change of scenery and hitting coaches will help him. Also, he will be in a contract year.
DG, in your post yesterday you mentioned that the Indians could be a potential trade partner for the Cards. I’ve heard Peralta put out there as a player on the trading block, and he has put up impressive numbers his whole career. Not a lot of speed, but he is a lock for 20 HRs and 70+ RBIs every season. On defense though he has struggled, just by looking at his total errors for 2008: 14 errors for 2008…but 25 homers a year is a lot of homeruns from a SS.
Are the Indians interested in shopping him? Bryan Anderson would most certainly be a good starting point for trade talks, Cleveland catcher Victor martinez had a terrible 2008 season.
Lopez can play, and I don’t question that. But will he give 100% for 162 games a year? He has good role models here in St. Louis, with guys that play hard like AP and Yadi. Maybe guys like that will have a positive affect toward Lopez. I’d like to see Lopez back for 2009 to remain to play second, and then try and possibly see if the Indians would trade Peralta. Then maybe you could bring Grenne up at midseason, that way we could see what we have in Greene. He didn’t have a ton of ABs this year at Memphis, and with his injury issues in the past I don’t have a since for what sort of player Greene can develop into….
Furcal: Too expensive. May get more money than he’s worth cause of the offseason hype.
Greene: Too Low OBP
Isturis: Good, if he doesn’t want too much of a raise/ doesn’t mind platooning.
Eckstein: No.
Renteria: Read Below,
If the Cards can get a good deal on him, I say go for it!! He had a bad year in Detroit, but the guy can still hit and play decent defense. He’s lost a step, but I think his decline’s been overblown.
Also, if he’s willing to play 1st Base for an injured Pujols, that would be a plus. Also if he’s willing to play a little 3rd Base. (ala Garciaparra)
I have always liked Renteria. This is not going backwards at all. I would much rather have Renteria/ Ryan or Renteria/Isturis combo, instead of sinking 10 million a year on Furcal. Put that money in Pitching!!!!
Go Cards.
Izturis at 2nd and renteria at ss, would finally be a good middle infield
You are all stating the Cardinals claim to fame……..why do we want Renteria back? WE HAD HIM!! Why didn’t they buck up and pay the man and we could have held him through a little more of his ‘prime’. Why did we let the guy walk? Probably because he was offered a contract paying more and we didn’t want to pay. Some time, some way, the cardinals MUST realize that they are going to have to pay to get/keep players…young upside players. Instead….let the guy walk. Wait til he gets older and cheaper, and take a flyer on the guy. Geez, when will it end?!?
Is it not enough that St. Louis has become the place where old has-been pitchers come to die? Now we’re going to become the position player graveyard?
Not to insult anyone, but are you all joking?
Edgar was and All-Star one year ago (07), top 5 in gold glove voting, and in the top 5 in batting! Last season he underperformed, but was still not far behind Perahlta or K. Greene.
K. Greene, whom I’m a big fan of has had at least an injury per-season over his career, and although he may be slightly better on D, the projected offense would be a wash.
Signing him back at 5-7 million for a few years brings veteran stability and dependability. How many times has the guy ever been on the DL? Look it up.
The only player “better” available is Furcal, but with his injury record and presumed contract demands I’m really not that interested. I’d hat for the Cards to invest the suspected 5 years 50 million in a guy who only plays a combine three years. You could make a case for Cabrera being better at this stage, but his free swinging will hurt us in the long run. He’s also coming off a good season and into a fairly lucrative contract.
Renteria is the most logical option right now. Continue the youth movement, and sign Edgar for 2-3 years until a younger guy is ready.
For the people saying Renteria is “washed up”: what are your reasons for that thinking?
Some of you guys sound like the bitter ex-boyfriend who’s gf left them for a cooler guy, and you can’t handle it.
That was an interesting read….thanks DG.
My vote goes to either Renteria or Furcal.
That being said, both are “Type A” free agents.
If we are giving up a first round draft pick, give me Furcal. Keep in mind that if you sign Renteria, you’re giving up some youth, albeit unproven, for him as well. Furcal can hold down the position for a length of time, in my opinion. Renteria is one, mayber two years.
Give me Furcal at the top of the order, give me Hudson playing second, and the lineup will be ok.
With the news on Carpenter, go get a pitcher, please!
Dont get me wrong I am not a Cardinals fan, I am a Pirates fan. I would never want a player like Renteria on my team. He only plays when he feels like it and is a team cancer.
Whoa. That’s a shot from out of nowhere — and really there’s no evidence of that opinion. When Renteria was a Cardinal they quietly called him “captain”, and he is still held in the highest regard by his teammates and the people who covered him. Not sure about the basis for the above comment.
DG, the reason for my reasoning is because I am also a Red Sox fan. I witnessed first hand how this guy really is. Not only is he one of the worst fielding SS i have ever seen but he doesnt seem to care. He got his money and thats all he cares about.
While I’d prefer to have Orlando Cabrera at short and Orlando Hudson at 2B, that would probably cost too much. Renteria coming back I could live with. People seem to forget that he was a very good clutch hitter for us, an area where Izturis was totally useless. Yes he had a down year, which I feel will drop his asking price, but I also think he’ll bounce back. Give him a 3 year contract until Pete Kozma is ready.
I’d love to see edgar back. I thought that the cardinals should’ve done what ever they had to keep him in the first place. Since he left there has been a revolving door at the position.
i actually would like the chance to see edgar play for the cardinals again. i was one of the people who was very upset with his departure but i think the cardinals should sign him to a one year deal and see how it goes. he is a very good clutch hitter and i think it would be worth it to give him one more chance. i would love to see him wearing cardinal red again.