Where will these closers close? (A Poll)
TOWER GROVE — The closer market gained sudden speed in Las Vegas at the Baseball Winter Meetings with the New York Mets landing Francisco Rodriguez to close and then elbowing aside contenders like the St. Louis Cardinals and Detroit to trade for Seattle closer J.J. Putz, adding him as a setup reliever. At the same time, the Cleveland Indians pounced on Kerry Wood to handle their ninth innings and then …
Nothing. Silence. Impatience. Little more than whispers, noncommittal footsy under the radar.
It was the eye of the storm passing over the market.
With word Sunday that the Los Angeles Angels are out of the Mark Teixeira hunt and redirecting their efforts to land Brian Fuentes, the closer derby could spin back into action just in time for Christmas. The delay in the market has had the desired effect for Fuentes. It’s created a duel for his services. This entry is all about the polls, so we’ll start with Fuentes:
Loading …There are still a handful of teams shopping for a closer, including Detroit, Milwaukee, the Angels and Cardinals. San Diego, Oakland and the Los Angeles Dodgers could also enter the fray if their is a arm or a price to their liking.
The Cardinals' all-time saves leader, Jason Isringhausen, waits for the closer market to spin his direction.
Several of those teams have in-house alternatives, though they range from Jonathan Broxton, who has experience doing it, to rookies like the Cardinals’ Kid Closers to less ideal candidates from the middle innings. The market offers a similar spectrum of options, though in dwindling commodities. Fuentes is atop the class, while Trevor Hoffman is the seasoned vet who had a strong second half an Jason Isringhausen is on the verge of 300 and in need of a bounceback season. Takashi Saito has the recent track record to go with an injury concern. Juan Cruz starred as a setup man in Arizona and is arguably the best reliever still available — but is he ready for a team to promote him to the ninth inning?
The focus here is on the two veterans, the Cardinals’ all-time leader in saves and baseball’s all-time leader in saves, a total of 847 saves between them and no real clear sense where this hurry-up-and-wait market will take them.
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Derrick Goold said he was going to Mizzou for capital-J journalism, but after growing up in the Time Zone Baseball Forgot he was really drawn to MU sitting between two major-league cities. Goold joined the Post-Dispatch in 2001 after working for The Times-Picayune and Rocky Mountain News, covering sports from LSU to NHL and every level of baseball in between. 
If the Cardinals are looking for an experienced closer who had good enough stats last season to still be able to close, Trevor Hoffman, Keith Foulke, Eddie Guardado, & Al Reyes are all available and certainly would be more affordable than Fuentes. Of this group, Hoffman would be the best fit because his experience and his change-up would be the perfect mentor for Chris Perez and Jason Motte.
If Jason Isringhausen would be willing to come back to the Cards on a 1 year deal, start from scratch, and battle for the closers role, I think it’d be a great idea.
In fact, it’d be great to get Hoffman AND Izzy both for 1 year (probably for the same price as 1 year of Fuentes).
As mentioned in the previous blog, the Cardinals have not shown interest in Hoffman. La Russa mentioned at the winter meetings that the Cardinals haven’t talked about Hoffman as a fit for the closer role. According to The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, the Brewers had a similar take on Hoffman.
It could be that many teams believe he’ll end up in San Diego. It could also be that there are some concerns about Hoffman’s performance.
I would like to know who these “others” are that people are voting for …
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DG, I’ll give you my “other” for Hoffman, a wild card guess…
Tampa Bay Rays. Price is going into the rotation and with Percival being a question mark, I could see the Rays looking for some added vet leadership in the pen. Hoffman could provide that.
I like Tampa Bay as a landing spot for a veteran closer. Good call.
How about just wishful thinking that Hoffman seems to be such a good fit?
Keith Foulke had a lousy ‘05 & ‘06, then missed all of ‘07. He threw just over 30 innings last season but the numbers are there for a team to install him into the closer’s role.
I”m not high on Eddie Guardado, but he’s a lefty with closer experience and he pitched well for the Rangers. And then,
Al Reyes, former Cardinal, closed for Tampa in ‘07, set-up in ‘08. If the club doesn’t mind giving save opportunities to Perez when Reyes can’t go back to back, it would make Al a viable option.
It just bugs me a bit that the Cardinals seemed so fixed on Fuentes around the price he could command. Unless TLR & Duncan see a Lidge-type of turnaround in him, otherwise it seems like too much to spend where every dollar of salary seems so valuable.
How about adding Saito and B.J. Ryan to the polls?
Some of you people have completely lost your f** minds. Mo I hope you read these message boards. I was preparing to buy a partial season tix packs for 4 seats. If you are stupid enough to bring that scrub Issy back for another season you can stick those tickets where the sun don’t shine.
This is pure insanity!! It was painful watching IZZY blow games last year.
It shows nothing more that the Cards hiring warm bodies for a cheap price.
He’s cheap because he sucked as a closer. I am tired of being taken for granted as a fan.
I was in New Jersey for a X-mas party late last week and when people heard I was from STL all they could say was how cheap the Cards were. People in other parts of the country think of us as a Cheapskate organization. Nobody expects you to be the Yankee’s or Mets but act like the winningest franchise in the history of the National League and put a team that is going to challenge the top of the National league. Bill, If you just want a cash cow and aren’t interested in upholding the stature and prestige of the Cardinal organization then sell the team.
JRiver556,
A few points.
1. I don’t think anyone is saying we should lock Izzy up in a 3 year deal. Go back and read. 1 year deal with no assurance of the closer role.
2. Who cares what some people from New Jersey “at a party” thought of the Cardinals? When was the last time the Mets won the World Series?
3. I’ll probably buy the tickets.
JRiver556, you are so full of crap. I agree we cannot bring back Izzy. After New York, LA, Chicago, and Boston, how many other teams have a bigger payroll than the Cardinals? 3 or 4? Where does St. Louis’ market size rank in baseball? The Cardinals have had a combination of bad luck (Carp, Juan E.) and bad decisions (Mulder-Haren, resigning Edmonds, Izzy, Mulder again), that have caused them not to be able to maximize production-for-payroll amount like the Phillies have (who spent less last year than the Cardinals). No way in any realm outside your brain and the collective brain of other irrational whiners can the Cardinals be considered cheap when, (and don’t miss this KEY point), YOU COMPARE THEM TO OTHER MLB MARKETS THIS SIZE. So either you’re lying about your New Jersey story, or that area of the country is as stupid as they sound.
You know if we sign Izzy, Tony won’t be able to resist letting him blow 5 or 6 games. The team can’t afford that, and the fan base can’t take that anymore. Please, let go of the Izzy Period.
Excellent point regarding the Rays and Hoffman. It makes sense for both Hoffman and the Rays to pursue that possibility..
The thing that really surprised me was the number of voters that voted Izzy as closing in St. Louis next season. I don’t see that happening.
I think Fuentes will be an Angel at the start of next season. As was noted in the last post regarding the closers market, with the Angels likely out of the Tiexeira race, it makes sense that the Angels will pursue Fuentes.
Hey Steve. First of all my New Jersey story is 100% true. I work for company headquartered in Piscataway, NJ. Second, keep this in mind. Isringhausen made 8-9 million per year the last several years. The Mets didn’t give a whole lot more per year to the best Free agent closer (K-Rod)
I wasn’t angry when they traded for a reclamation guy in Greene for SS. Thay’s fine but closer is a huge reason why we blew so many games last year. You want to believe that 3-4 million more per year is just too steep a hill for Billy Wallet fine. By the way, don’t the Cards make a lot more Rev going to the postseason? Maybe some of that might offset that extra 3-4 mill for a stud closer like K-Rod? It just doesn’t make sense. I am not expeting the Mets or Yankees. Can we just stop being the lowest bid for every guy we go after!!!
While I have been unable to confirm there was a party in New Jersey let alone the topics of conversation at said alleged party, I can write that JRiver makes a valid point about the salary. At its height, Jason Isringhausen’s salary as Cardinals closer was $8.75 million in 2006 and ‘07. That isn’t different from what Rodriguez will make in 2009.
It is, however, different from where K-Rod’s salary takes him next.
The contract details according to AP:
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Juan Cruz? DG has gone off the board with that name. Interesting pick. A bullpen of Perez, Motte, Cruz, … Kinney, etc. will figure out how to get saves. Can I have my starting pitcher now?
Stay with bullpen by committee someone will emerge.The starting pitching has been bad since the middle of june 2006.Having relief pitchers start and cast-offs starting games will not win the division.Unless a 5 man rotation is established before spring training the team will have to out slug everyone.Using 13 to 17 pitchers a year has proven to ruin the bullpen.
Exactly my point Derrick. Tell me of even the most fiscally responsible of Cards fans who wouldn’t agree with bumping 100 million annual payroll
3-4 million per season to be assured of 9th inning success. This should be their top priority now as it should have been the first day of Free agency. But what has happened, we lost on K-Rod, we lost on Putz and we will most likely lose on Fuentes. It is fascinating.
Hello Derrick…….Whatever happened with Chad Cordero???? I thought that he could be a viable solution on the cheap. Honestly…….I would just like to have the payroll flexibility to acquire someone at the deadline than just throw money at someone.I think that one year of Hoffman would do wonders with both Motte and Perez….who both have above average fastballs…what do you think???
Nice thought on Cordero, but he is still rehabbing his shoulder and might be out until May at the earliest.
Derrick. Do you thank 2009 is the last chance for the CARDINALS to go to the World Series till at least 2012?? We lose Glaus,Greene,Kennedy,Ankiel,LaRue,Wellemyer,Pineiro,Franklin after 2009. Who do you thank would be the best fit in the 2009 Cardinals bullpen,B.J.Ryan,Brian Fuentes at 2 years 8 million peryear or less,T.Hoffman,T.Saito,someone else???
In reading these posts I see one recurring theme, on the cheap. Some are complaining that the team is cheap, but many more suggest looking for players on the cheap. I sometimes wonder if snagging Lohse last year “on the cheap” was bad for the team. It is fine to snag a player on the cheap, but it should not color your entire philosophy. I have a different take on K-rod only getting 3/37. This figure along with Wood’s made the cards submit an offer of far less than Fuentes wanted. If TLR and the front office really believed that Fuentes was the best target on the market they should have offered him 3/38. This would have had so much appeal to his ego, he would have to sign. He’d be the highest pd reliever this year. And he would have cost just a little more that he was worth, but the cards would have their man. Now they stumble wondering who their closer will be. Could have been Fuentes, and just like Clint Eastwood “for a few dollars more.”
Derrick. PLEASE tell us about some of the Cardinals top prospects where MO @ Tony see them fitting in,with the CARDINALS in 2009 @ 2010. And why there was little talk or people wanting our prospects during the trade talks about Peavy @ others??? Pitchers Tyler Norrick a lefthander,Blake Hawksworth,Jess Todd,P.J.Walters,Clayton Mortensen,Mitch Boggs,Adam Ottavino,Brad Furnich,Fernando Salas, Bryan Anderson catch,Allen Craig,David Freese,Tyler Greene,Brian Barden,Brendan Ryan, outfielders Jon Jay,Nick Stavinoha,Joe Mather,Bryan Barton,Daryl Jones, Any of these BIG IMPACT players for the Cards in 2010??? THANK YOU!!!
I think the Cardinals will be fine with Chris Perez and Jason Motte closing the games. I feel Carpenter is to big of a risk to be relying on for next season, so the Cardinals should spend there money on a ace pitcher. What is the point spending money on a closer, if we can not get to them. Anyways, we have the talent we are only missing a few pieces to put us back on the top of the NL. The CUBS are spending money, so lets spend a little money to out do them because the cardinals aren’t choke artist like the cubs. Everytime the Cubs make the playoff the NL is just wasting a team.
JRiver, I’m not against raising payroll, I just don’t understand why so many people consider the Cardinals cheapskates when you consider how many franchises are truly cheapskates. At least they are bidding. Most teams don’t. There are an endless line of bad signings of top free agents. The Cardinals, whose market has grown considerably smaller in comparison to other markets, since their heydays in the 60’s and back, have a history of finding bargains. Nothing wrong with that, considering throwing 200 million at 25 players leads to nothing (see Yankees, last five years or so). Yes, their biggest need is probably a closer, but money doesn’t necessarily buy quality. Wasn’t Fuentes bumped from his closer role last year? So if the market demands a failing closer be paid 11-12 million a year, is it worth it? This is the first year in a while that we have’t spent buttloads on a closer. It’s only December. I hope if we spend 10 million or more on one player, that he has a proven track record of success and health. I would like to see Peavy, or another quality starter. But if we spend it on Fuentes, what if he starts to fail this year, like he did last year? We will be completely hamstrung financially, kind of like we have been in past years with big big money signings of the past few years- Edmonds, Rolen, Mulder, Carpenter, Juan E., Piniero, Izzy- all big money signings from a supposedly cheapskate organization that did not give us our money’s worth. One more point- this year we have many options for a closer (if Tony has a more open mind this year): Perez, Motte, Kinney, McClellan, maybe even Franklin. I am convinced one or more of these hungry youngsters can do as good a job as a veteran who just hit the jackpot this year after losing the closer’s role last year. Now I would be all for throwing huge chunks of DeWitt’s money at Lidge, Rivera, or K-Rod, but there’s just not that many sure things in the closer realm, and I can understand why the Cardinals don’t want to overpay for Fuentes.
People seem to assume that because K-Rod signed with the Mets for 3yr/37mil(actually more like 4/54) that we could have signed him for the same amount. Come on wake-up. We were not going to outbid the Mets for the closer they wanted. They would have added another year and/or a few mil until we dropped out. Overpaying for a closer might flatter some fan”s egos but over the long run it is dumb. San Francisco overpaid for the mediocre Barry Zito just to prove that they weren’t cheap and should be taken seriously. This year it apparently a chance to sign CC Sabathia at a below market contract. In 2 years we are going to have give Albert a huge raise to keep him playing here. What would some of these commentators have to say if we can’t come up with the jack because we are paying 13 mil to Fuentes who has already lost the closer job to Perez.
Well said, Sailor Jay. I think the individuals who are advocating spending conveniently forget to plan ahead for stuff like Albert’s big raise–unless those same people think trading him would be a good idea.
Look, folks: in 2008, the Cards were in the top third of payroll in a mid-level market. That’s pretty good. And they like to keep a few $ available for flexibility. Read that as an opportunity to take advantage of a team under duress. That seems wise to me.
We still need another LOOGY (I like Joe Beimel), an impact bat and a starting pitcher. Frankly, we’ll be lucky if we get two of three. Closer is one place where we actually have prospects. Let’s use them!
I’ve read all the recent blogs, and it blows my mind that everyone is so hung up on a closer. Sure it would be nice to add a quality closer. But if
you don’t improve your starting pitching, you won’t even get to the closer.
Remember, in a 5 game playoff, you’d better have 3 stud starting pitchers, or you’re done. Who do we currently have, Wainright? If you add Peavy or
Penny, or the like, and if, just if you get back Carpenter, then you’ve got
a real shot at contending. And as for the Cardinals being cheap, thats crazy. I would like to see them spend their money a little wizer thought.
9 mil for Kennedy, quit it…
Great questions and comments here. I will get to all of the questions in short order — I’ll put them in an entry all their own this afternoon. Was away from the keyboard this morning for another commitment, so first let me get up the (delayed, belated) prospect poll and then I’ll respond to all these quality questions …
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I had two hopes for last year: Mulder would re-emerge as a good starter and Izzy would re-emerge as a great closer. They’re good talent, but they’re injured and we placed too much expectation on them. We completely annhilated Izzy’s confidence and even MO said last season we can’t keep giving games away. But he’s completely fine with it this year. MO: are you trying to placate LaRussa? Quit. Get the ball player you claim to want, don’t give them an insulting offer and then throw up your hands and say you tried. Or have you and DeWitt have a press conference and tell the fans the truth: You aren’t interested in investing in the Cardinals. You aren’t interested in competing, at least not to the extent you’ve promised. Not spending the money in 2005 and 2006 because the new ballpark is gonna give us millions in new revenue? It did, who did we get for it, like you promised? Not one impact player. Not fixing our holes at the 2008 trade deadline so we can focus the money on 2009? While Khalil Greene is a good guy, he’s average talent, and BET me this is our big off-season acquisition. We haven’t had an impact player added to our lineup since Larry Walker. Trevor Miller is great, but he’s injured and it seems to me we haven’t had all that great of luck picking up injured pitchers. Can we do something please so we don’t end up finishing 4th again? Please?