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11.23.2009 9:58 am

Market Watch: Matt Holliday vs. Jason Bay

St. Louis Post-Dispatch
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TOWER GROVE — In his illuminating and detailed look at the defensive difference between baseball’s two best free-agent bats, ESPN.com Jerry Crasnick opens with a combination of words that won’t be used again this winter: “Poor Matt Holliday.”

The St. Louis Cardinals’ outfielder Holliday and fellow free agent Jason Bay, last of the Boston Red Sox, are easily the two best impact bats available in this year’s marketplace. That has spurred a cottage industry for columnists: Who’s better? Bay v. Holliday. Holliday has the most luminous resume with a second-place MVP finish, a batting title, a postseason MVP and an overall reputation as a fit for almost any team’s cleanup spot. A knock on Holliday that (inexplicably) persists is that he’s a product of his first ballpark — Coors Field in Denver. Bay has more power and — yes, this counts — he’s done well in Boston where other quality players have faltered. The dings on him is his batting average, he’s slightly older and … defense.

Defense is a common skill used to differentiate the two.

Crasnick, in his article for ESPN.com, captures the debate through an explanation of how teams are trying to find the silver-bullet stat to judge defense:

The eye test, however, tends to complicate matters. Several baseball executives told ESPN.com that they consider both Bay and Holliday below-average defenders, and one American League GM described Holliday as “brutal” with a glove. A National League assistant said his team’s internal defensive metrics rank Holliday as superior to Bay, but that the team’s scouts actually prefer Bay to Holliday.

“If there’s some kind of discrepancy, you need to use your best judgment,” the assistant says. “If a scout says, ‘This guy stinks,’ but the numbers say he’s excellent, the truth probably lies somewhere in between.”

As Crasnick points out, Holliday scored well with some of the accepted defensive metrics: He was above average in Ultimate Zone Rating. (Holliday was a 5.7, distant to leader Carl Crawford, but better than Bay’s minus-13.0.) Holliday also did fine with Runs Saved in left field, scoring a 14, which was third behind only Crawford and Juan Rivera. They eye test is still the way to go, though it’s important the eye test comes with a caveat. The defensive play that is stuck in everyone’s eye when it comes to Holliday is him dropping a crucial out in the NL Division Series. It’s not fair to let that one play overwhelm or completely shape an opinion of his defense.

A few years ago, when the Cardinals coveted Bay — then a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates — one official acknowledged that his defense was subpar, but his offense and his fit with the club more than made up with that. As first reported in the Post-Dispatch by baseball writer Joe Strauss, the Cardinals don’t see Bay as an immediate alternative to Holliday this winter. It was subsequently explained to me that the Cardinals don’t see the commitment that Bay would command being in the best interest. An official explained to me that right now there are “better ways” for the Cardinals to dedicate what they have available.

Some other articles that compare Bay to Holliday:

And also from this past weekend is an interesting read from New York Daily News baseball columnist Bill Madden: The Mets remain an elusive presence in the Holliday derby, and Madden makes the point that he believes the club only “realistically” has $20 million to spend. He then tells you what that means for the Mets and their interest in any of the top free agents out there.

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12 comments

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DYNASTY League Baseball uses several defensive metrics as well as scouting reports and has Jason Bay defensively as B Range, 100 Error rating (among the very best ever historically) and -1 Throwing (Good).

Holliday’s rating will be completed later this week.

— Mike Cieslinski
11:36 am November 23rd, 2009

Hmmm—well, correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall, Jason Bay didn’t DROP THE BALL!!! in the playoffs.

Or is it that he didn’t LOSE IT IN THE LIGHTS!!!

Or was it that he didn’t stand there with the bat on his shoulder throughout those brief three games?

— RonSanto
12:57 pm November 23rd, 2009

Well, for Cardinals fans, the description of Holliday’s glove as “brutal” certainly does fit his unfortunate fumble of that linedrive ball in game 2 of the NLDS. But, there were also other miscues during the season that would support an assessment of below average–or average, at best–defense.

— LPD
1:17 pm November 23rd, 2009

All these sportswriters are very sensitive to the payroll considerations, which in itself is an interesting change from the way free agents were discussed a decade ago. Cards sure are saving some scratch if they go with Freese at third, dropping DeRosa and Glaus salaries.

Wilpon can’t possibly be so nieve as to think he can turn around the Mets in one year with the free agents available and the dead money he has on his roster. He has to wait for the 2010 free agent class - doesn’t he?

Some very interesting rental names in those articles.

— Joepa
1:32 pm November 23rd, 2009

“One of his sources sees a seven-year, $147-million for both. Looks to me like Heyman’s estimates are closer to reality.”

And just exactly who is the source for this? Scott Boras, perhaps???

— pjb_bluesfan
1:42 pm November 23rd, 2009

As an Arlington, TX resident, I saw plenty of the Angels this year. Any statistical formula that tries to say Juan Rivera is a good defender in LF should be destroyed and never used again.

— Michael B.
1:56 pm November 23rd, 2009

I’m not sure I trust anything Heyman reports. The rumors that he’s the mouthpiece for Boras just seem to hold true. Its unfortunate we rely on his information for our entertainment. Seven years at $147 million is pretty close to Teixeira type money. And Boston’s first offer: 4/$60 million. There appears to be a pretty sizable gap.

— bsbalbrian
2:25 pm November 23rd, 2009

I want NEITHER.

Too many years, too overhyped right now.

Sign Dye to one year, use the leftover for pitching pitching pitching.

— Eric
6:30 pm November 23rd, 2009

As a fantasy polayer, I’m taking Holliday. You can get power like Bay’s with his average larter on, but Holliday’s gonna give you 25-30 pokes AND a .300+ batting average. Probably has more speed too.

— r4i karte
11:46 pm November 23rd, 2009

Even before his drop in the playoffs Matt did not impress me with his fielding at all. I don’t know why but I won’t be THAT upset if he signs somewhere else. I’m not really sure why I feel that way either.

— Brianbase
11:57 pm November 23rd, 2009

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