We will start from the bottom up…

Ultrafish - Except the rabbi is offering his opinion on matters and issues that he obviously was not well informed on. I have no doubt that we is an intelligent and well-educated man, but can he honestly speak for the internal happenings of Burke’s office or the reasons behind them? People have posted that obviously were closer to the situation than he was and have dismissed what he said. Is it right to be offended by something when you are forming your opinion on misinformation and leaps of faith (pun intended)? I do not doubt your statement that the rabbi is well respected, but no man is perfect. This blog was a mistake on his part. It happens.

RNC - I regularly attend a Latin mass because I find it interesting. My dad goes because it was how mass was said when he was an altar boy. A lot of the people I see in these masses are older, and quite frankly I think it is more a trip down memory lane than anything else. We are not a member of the parish but I do throw a few bucks in if I attend mass there that weekend. Your claim that it is a way to bring back wayward Catholics or increase revenues is idiotic at best. If you want to make an argument then be my guest but do not make up stats like “double or triple” their collections because it invalidates anything you write, unless you can prove it.

Pam - Please understand that no one blames your congregation or any part of its membership. Yes the ordination of a female “priest” was offensive but that particular rabbi was acting on their own behalf. No one things less of you because of the actions of one person. For that matter, the whole thing was more of a political statement (feminist in basis) than religion in my opinion anyway. But regardless, there is no ill will towards you or your community.

RNC - How, exactly, should bishops be appointed? Should we appoint Al Gore the new CEO of Microsoft because he is leader??? Or maybe someone with a background in the software business? (he did invent the internet though LOL). Burke was a leader, just not necessarily a popular leader. You equate being popular with being a leader. A leader does what needs to be done, and I certainly think Burke did that. Burke may not be liked by the good rabbi either, but his appeal to leaders in other religions can’t be the first thing considered. Don’t forget that the rabbi himself said that his faith often has multiple moral stances, so the Church’s standard operating procedure would be unfamiliar to him to begin with.

To all - This may be the best written and argued blog I have ever been a part of on the P-D site. Nice work all.

Tim, let’s address a couple of points.

“If you want to make an argument then be my guest but do not make up stats like “double or triple” their collections because it invalidates anything you write, unless you can prove it.”

Little Flower in Richmond Heights is one such parish. They put weekly collections in the bulletin (or at least they did this fall), so those numbers are out there (I don’t recall the exact increase there but weekly collections more than doubled). Those are probably the easiest numbers to find.

“RNC - How, exactly, should bishops be appointed? ”

Bishops should be appointed for their ability to lead. Period. Archbishop Burke did not have (and does not have) a track record of effective leadership. He is incredibly intelligent (that should be obvious to anyone who has ever spoken with him or heard him speak). He is a fantastic canon lawyer. Unfortunately, he lacks interpersonal skills; as I said before, he does a great job of dividing people (i.e. over the John Kerry Eucharist fiasco) and a lousy job of uniting people. That doesn’t make him a bad person or a bad priest, but it does make him an inappropriate choice to lead an archdiocese as large and diverse as ours. Like most large archdioceses, ours enjoys enormous diversity of parishoners and viewpoints. Disagreement with Archbishop Burke does not necessarily make someone a bad Catholic.

“Like most large archdioceses, ours enjoys enormous diversity of parishoners and viewpoints. Disagreement with Archbishop Burke does not necessarily make someone a bad Catholic.”

RNC, Archbishop Burke simply upholds and enforces (which is his JOB) the basic (and given the mind-numbing issues [and knee-jerk reactions based on ignorance] he’s had to deal with in light of his intellect, I refer to them as “basic”) tenets and beliefs of the Roman Catholic faith, which, given the nature of the Roman Catholic faith, should be held by all Roman Catholics.

So, in fact, disagreeing with Archbishop Burke does make you a bad Catholic.

I think all parishes put their collection totals in the bulletin…at least I have never gone to one that didn’t. I will see if there is a way to verify your claim, maybe you should do the same. Some hard numbers will make the point either way.

As to leadership, just because you don’t like what he did doesn’t mean everyone agrees with you. A good leader does not always compromise. FDR is considered a great leader, and he bullied and pushed around everyone he could, especially the Supreme Court. Lincoln is considered a great leader and half the country hated him. Leadership has multiple definitions too, and I think we are using different ones. I see Burke as a leader because he did what needed to be done. He stuck up for the Catholic Church instead of apologizing for it like the non-Catholics want. He didn’t take attacks on the Church laying down. He upheld the rules. He did what he was supposed to do.

He also made people made, he ticked off at least one Jewish rabbi that I know of, and made a lot of “negative” headlines. In your mind he was not a good leader.

There is diversity in our archdiocese, but not in our canon laws. I can’t see how he could have decided things any other way. Be nicer about it? Sure, but in the end the results were going to be the same.

Tim, you’ve said exactly what Archbishop Burke should have done about the Kerry issue: be nicer about it. Church teaching on abortion is relatively unambiguous, and Archbishop Burke was probably right (there’s a reasonable argument that he was wrong, but let’s assume for the moment that he was right). The issue wasn’t Archbishop Burke’s decision but rather the fact that he shouted it to the media. Instructing clergy not to serve Communion to John Kerry is one thing (and it’s perfectly defensible; in fact, I’ve not spoken to any practicing Catholics who would have had a problem with Archbishop Burke doing that). Making a spectacle of it is another. We might make the same argument about the Sheryl Crow or Rick Majerus fiascoes as well.

RNC,

While it’s generous of you to concede that Archbishop Burke might have been right about John Kerry, especially since his words have been echoed by the Holy Father himself, and since he has now been appointed to the highest legal position in the Church, your statement that he “shouted it to the media is badly mistaken.

Shortly after he arrived in St. Louis the Archbishop was ambushed by a local reporter who asked him point blank, “Would you give communion to John Kerry?” He responded that any Catholic politician who votes to support abortion should refrain from receiving communion. When pressed he agreed that, yes, John Kerry would be one such politician. There was no shouting and since Kerry never attended mass in St. Louis, it was never an issue in spite of several media sources reporting that the Archbishop had refused Kerry communion.

What you refer to as the Sheryl Crowe and Rick Majerus “fiascos” were also situations where Catholics publicly defied Church teaching and were admonished by the Archbishop, as they should have been. The fund raising board of Cardinal Glennon Hospital defied his request to replace Crowe with an entertainer who hadn’t taken public stands against Church teaching while Majerus opened his big mouth when he shouldn’t have (which is most of the time). Once again, the Archbishop wasn’t the one doing the shouting.

Exactly how “nice” should a member of the clergy be to a public sinner? In all three cases you mention, they were made public by either the media or the sinners themselves, not by Abp. Burke. There was a time when people were ashamed to commit (or at least admit) sin, but that’s no longer the case. Today they brag about it and their accomplices in the media are more than willing to support them by assaulting Church authority.

By the way, what does any of this have to do with the good rabbi’s rant against the Archbishop?

Mike, it has everything to do with the blog post… both are a symptom of the same problem (Archbishop Burke’s divisive leadership style).

In order to deal with you question about how Archbishop Burke should have acted toward Kerry/Crowe/Marjerus, there are two questions to consider:

1) Is it sinful to (privately) hold pro-choice beliefs? The answer to that question is pretty clearly no. (You’ll see statements from the Church along the lines of “what a person holds privately is a matter of conscience.”)

2) If the answer to that question is no, is it sinful for someone to articulate (not act on) that belief? That’s a much, much harder question, and I don’t pretend to have the answer. There isn’t any specific prohibition in canon law or elsewhere on those who are not leaders in the church sharing the views in their conscience. To me, that suggests (though does not determine) that the answer to this question is also no.

If the answer to both of those questions is no, I have a hard time defending the Archbishop’s public pronouncements, especially with regard to Crowe and Majerus. I think it’s a somewhat different question with respect to Kerry since Kerry was arguably in a position to influence abortion policy, though there’s still no requirement that the Archbishop or anyone else answer a question posed by the media. While attacking Kerry is perhaps defensible (though arguably unwise), there’s no similar justification for Crowe or Majerus. Again, holding pro-choice beliefs (not acting on those beliefs) is NOT sinful.

It most certainly sinful to hold pro-choice beliefs. Killing babies is a sin. Facilitating the killing of babies is a sin. Thinking it’s ok to kill babies is a sin. This is not negotiable and your statement that it is betrays a lack of understanding of the faith.

Unless someone’s been in a coma for the last fifty years, there can’t be a single person alive, Catholic or otherwise, who doesn’t know the Church’s teaching on abortion. You conveniently left out the word “informed” in your reference to conscience. A Catholic must have an INFORMED conscience. An uninformed conscience, or worse, a conscience that refuses to accept Church teaching, is not an excuse for the commission of sin. (Article 6. Catechism of the Catholic Church)

I suggest you read at least Article 6 of the Catechism and preferably the whole thing before you take it upon yourself to decide what is and what isn’t a sin.

I have read the bog by Rabbi Shook and the comments that have followed. I have also prayed for the guidance to share my thoughts with all concerned.

First, I am a committed Catholic married to a committed Jew. We each respect the others traditions and beliefs.

I will admit to not being a fan of Archbishop Burke but give him credit for consistency and intelligence. His people skills leave a great deal to be desired. However, this is not a personality issue, anymore than the BOARD of Central Reform Congregation permitting the use of their building to the WomenPriests group. This was not a decision by Rabbi Talve, nor did she make any comments on the Roman Catholic Church’s position on ordaining women. She received a request from some women whom she felt were sincere in wanting to serve God and took this issue to her Board. The members of the CRC Board, who hire and can fire her at any time, made the decision to permit this use of their building.

Judaism, of whatever branch, are not subject to a hierarchical structure as we members of the Catholic Church are. There is no ultimate authority as we have in the Holy Father. Each congregation in Judaism is free to set its own path. Whatever, you make think of their choices.

I know Rabbi Talve personally and she is a committed, Godly person. Any attacks on the sincerity of her faith, is disingenious and disrespectful as attacks on the sincerity and good intentions of Archbishop Burke.

While I accept the Church’s teachings on the role of women in the Church, I like many of my Catholic sisters who came of age during the Pontificate of the Blessed John XXXIII, continue to pray that the Church will someday recognize an increased role for women in the sacrement of ordination. After all the first people to see our Lord after His resurrection were women. If we as a gender were worthy of that honor, perhaps someday, those who feel so called will be permitted to serve Him now, as they did during His life.

Please let us return to a civil dialogue between Catholics and Jews, so that we can all await the Messiah — whether we believe He is returning or coming for the first time!

Baruch attah Adoshem, Elokeinu Melech ha’olam yotzar adam B’Tzelem Elohim. Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe who creates all of us in His image.

Gen. 1:27 “So God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

B’Shalom and Pax vobiscum.

Catholics worldwide were angered when the St. Louis Jewish rabbbi Susan Talve sponsored a mock Catholic ordination ceremony in her synogogue. (Catholics who actively participated in this ceremony were either penalized or were even ex-communicated.) The good archbishop asked this rabbi not to allow this service, which had mocked the Catholic faith, to take place in her sysnogogue; he asked this Jewish community to respect the interfaith protocol which had been in place for years. In that protocol, most places of worship would avoid involving themselves in the internal affairs of another place of worship, especially in granting religious space to renegade sects of these particular places.

The offical Jewish response was nil. Here we had an offical representative of the Jewish faith involving itself in what was an internal Catholic conflict. This rabbi did not stop there. Later, Rabbi Talve decided to participate in a another Christian prayer service with these some people just so that she could show her solidarity with the women who had mock the Catholic faith just weeks before that. Why couldn’t this rabbi respect Catholicism and the wishes of the archbishop?

The author of this blog loves to point out what he perceives as the archbishop’s flaws. For once, I would like to see him acknowledge the flaws of his own community. (They are always lecturing us and it is getting very annoying.)

Maybe the words of Jesus are applicable here: “why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye when you have a log in yours.”