Khalid, and others, thanks for the observations so far. As a Christian, and as one who was raised under the umbrella of good old 5 point Calvinism, this is a discussion I can dig into with relish.

First, across all the writings of Paul the Apostle, there is a clearly stated theology of Sin that, by my interpretation, runs something like this:

Because of the Fall, we, as humans, are incapable of doing anything OTHER than Sin, of ourselves. We have no righteousness at all, no matter how good we try to be. Further, as Paul states clearly, “The wages of Sin are Death”. Short and to the point. However, there is Good News. And the Good News is God’s grace in the person of the Messiah. Who, Paul tells us, BECAME sin, though He was Righteous and without Sin (possible because He was both God and Man in one).

Even after Faith comes to me, my own good deeds are not there to keep score, but come about because of the change in my heart.

God is not the author of Sin. Sin entered the world because of the Fall, and the Fall is not the fall of Adam, but the fall of Lucifer (the light bearer) who became Satan (the adversary).

Confused yet?

Bottom line is this: I sin because it is my nature to do so. My own righteousness is of no value, the only thing that brings help and correction is the Grace of God, who overlooks my sin because of the work of the savior. An aside: in the study I’ve been participating in this year of the reading of Calvin’s Institutes, and interesting side discussion opened recently that has some bearing here.

In most English language translations up to and including the King James, the various passages in the Pauline Epistles refer to us having the faith OF Christ. In most modern translations, these passages are rendered having faith IN Christ. A very, very important change of adjective.

While difficult to consider and confronting of my integrity of thought and faith, I am finding this valuable. It is helping me consider and choose my own thoughts around a difficult consideration.

As a Christian, I believe God wants what is best for me, and would not tempt me. In my prayers I pray for God not to lead me to temptation, but to deliver me from it. As a father, in love I would not knowingly test my children with sin.

It seems there are many ways to glorify God without the use of sin, and that it is not a tool of God. We may wish to justify it as such to convince ourselves that their is some good in it since we find ourselves indulging in it with such vigor. For me, any good we think we may find there is good that we find, and it is not the sin. Sin and good or distinct. The good or benefit we may think resides in sin is something else. God maybe, there with us, but apart from sin.

As a christian and for me, there is no good or benefit in sin, or it is not sin. God’s forgiveness of me, provide unearned and as pure grace and love, without test and only through my acceptance of it is evidence of it to me. This a fundamental aspect of my faith. I believe that answers your question for me.

Thank you. It is something I have not spoken clearly yet for myself.

hs,

I posted before reading yours. I believe in what you are sharing.

Regarding the distinction between Lucifer and Adam and the source of sin in the world, I would still offer that blame of Lucifer or God for sin makes no difference and is itself and aspect of sin. God is not the source or author of sin, we are, as in each and every.

Anything less makes us victims of something other than ourselves, which is again blame. We know from the story it is our first response, and next to shame, the first impact of sin in the face of being held to account by God.

I paricularly appreciate your reference that good deeds are not efforts to trade for reconciliation, but authentic outcomes of a true shift in being. This trust in the outcome of taking on a way of being without knowing how it will show up is faith.

Great illustration of the vast chasm that exists between Christianity and Islam.
Christians are understanding that there is no way to make-up for sin by good deeds.
If you could earn redemption through works then there was absolutely no reason for Jesus to become a living sacrifice.
And the good works are a result of the acceptance of redemption not a cause for it.

Romans 3:
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7″Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”[b]

22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

also of some consideration might be Romans 7:

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

hs,
I am afraid as yet I haven’t heard something convincing about Paul. Perhaps you can help. Consider the following points: 1. Paul never met Jesus. 2. The claim of him seeing an apparition on the Road to Damascus has three mentions in the Bible but there are significant differences in the stories. 3. In his own words (I believe in the Letters to the Galatians) he writes that he did not spend any time with the apostles during the first 14 years after his conversion (and ministering). 4. From an outsiders point of view his words contradict what Jesus preached (Sermon on the Mount etc.). So in view of all these points, how is it that Pauline doctrine is dominant in Christianity today?

I would like to add that yours and ‘another’s’ comments are a challenge. It is very difficult to respond as we are viewing the Creator in very different terms. The second quotation from the Qur’an I used is perhaps the only time that we get a glimpse in the Qur’an about what was God thinking in making this creation (although fully one-third of the book is about explaining God to us). None of us can claim to fully understand (remember the sufi story of the four blind men and the elephant). I will keep thinking about what you have written.

Khalid,
as for your lengthy introduction and reference to Sermon on the mount-

Sixteen times in his sermon in Matthew 5-7 Jesus identifies God as “your heavenly Father” or “your Father”(This includes the use of “Our Father in heaven” in Matthew 6:9 where Jesus instructs his disciples how to pray. Because God is your father, says Jesus, “This, then, is how you should pray…”)–and a total of 165 times in the four Gospels. “A unique feature of Jesus’ teaching concerning the Fatherhood of God is that the frequency of this metaphor is out of all proportion to what we find elsewhere in the Old Testament and other Jewish literature,” biblical scholar Robert Stein observes. “This was not just a way Jesus taught his disciples to address God; it was the way.” In Matthew 6:25-34 Jesus describes his Father’s tender care for his creation: He feeds the birds and makes the flowers grow. “Are you not much more valuable than they?” Jesus asks (v. 26). He makes another lesser-to-greater comparison in 7:9-11, this time between a good earthly father and our heavenly Father, when he exclaims, “How much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!” God is compassionate, attentive, and trustworthy, says Jesus, and as his children, we can come to Him, communicate with Him, and rest in his care.
It would seem that Jesus attempted to help define for us the undefinable
all the while knowing our limitations.

My previous comment less the opening and closing were taken from
A Love of Bounty
Danielle DuRant
Sorry

whatwhat… Could you be more of a Christian robot if you even tried? Just keep on parroting scripture. Don’t ever attempt to think for yourself.

whatwhat… Likely, Jesus was not a living sacrifice (of God), but someone who simply saw himself as giving hope to a disenfranchised and massacred group of people. Maybe — in light of some odd coincidences regarding his birth (it does happen, you know) — he agreed to go along with the adulation. Public attention is a powerful force, as any of today’s celebrities or politicians can testify.