Interesting posting Kim. I do not believe in that stuff anyway, so the issue of borrowing ‘a magical spell/trick’ from another religion of tradition is moot for me.
But you posting reminded me of some of the interesting stuff along those line in my native land, Egypt. Some less-educated childless Muslims and Christians, desperate to have a child, end up visiting a burial site of a proclaimed local Sheikh, or a church location famed for the appearance of the Virgin Mary,etc, with no discrimination between the ‘holy’ sites. Muslims may visit the church, and the Christian may visit the Muslim Sheikh burial site. It is the unofficial ’success rate’ achieving the goal what decided where individuals go, not what religion they belong to.
When you are desperate you do not care where the blessing may come from.
Islamically, these acts are a ‘big no no’, but that is conveniently ignored by the desperate.

I’ve always buried a pork chop bone with a slice of ham and it’s always worked for me.

If you are putting faith in something other than God then you are worshipping an idol. Putting anything before God is worshipping that object or person. It doesn’t matter what religion you put your faith in as long as god is the center of your life and He is First in everything you do.

I don’t usually belive in stuff like this- but when i sold my last house, my neighbor found a plastic statue in her flower bed, knowing i was selling she offered it to me and i buried it not thinking much about it. Our house sold superfast, even at a time when the market was not so good. That staute had been in the neighbors flower bed and that house sold twice before she gave it to me. I agree with the last post if you are putting your faith in god and hope that it is his will that your house be sold- i see no problems.
I read on the internet that you should dig up the statue and bury it at your new house for coutinued luck etc. I dug it up and gave it back to my lovely neighbor so she could use it when she gets ready to sell.

Kim,
Great ideas to think about!
Many people from different countries and different religions have customs that meaningful not only to them but also to anyone else who understands them. Some of these customs are tied to the religion they come from and some aren’t. If you believe in Saint Joseph then burying a plastic statue may or may not be appropriate. If you don’t, then you are merely pretending and hoping it’s like a good luck charm. Superstition without meaning or sources lowers the dignity of mankind.
According to Judaism, putting your trust in a statue or for that matter any other force or power other than God is a form of idolatry. So if you believe in the tenets of Judaism you have to be careful what customs you pick up because you may be unwittingly committing a transgression.
Celebs who forked out $26. for a red string are being taken for a ride financially, but if they find it meaningful and wear it as a constant reminder of God and spirituality, then it will be of benefit to them. For many people the “evil eye” is merely a superstition, but there is a meaning behind it that is too much for this forum. Feel free to check out my website for more info. http://www.kabbalahmadeeasy.com
If you have a clear set of beliefs, adopting foreign customs may be helpful but may also be harmful. Worth pondering.

How many Saint Joseph statues does it take to sell a house? Is it a function of statue quality? Does it have to be blessed by religious athorities? How can you be sure it is really a statue of Saint Joseph? If you had to prove the statue was effective, how many statues would you have to sell to finance the study? How would you do a cost/benefit analysis without proof of effectiveness?

With regard to cause and effect, burying a statue is probably as effective as playing a slot machine. It all appears to be a matter of chance and, likely, a waste of time and money.

Burying a statue of Saint Joseph could be part of my religion if it was proven effective to sell a house. I will wait for the study and I will want to know the study details before I make my decision.

I think you all have good point regarding St. Joseph. After 17 years of providing statues to home-sellers and real estate agents I have determined the power of Joe lies within us.

StJosephStatue.com’s Vision is a World…
…where hope and optimism is imparted to those seeking promise in an otherwise gloomy real estate market, regardless of religious affiliation.

1. For those, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, practicing the ancient tradition of calling on St. Joseph to sell their home…

…StJosephStatue.com will respect and honor their beliefs and encourage them to continue their faith.

2. For those who are spiritual yet unfamiliar with the St. Joseph tradition, but are still in need of help to sell their home…

…StJosephStatue.com will encourage them to consider how the act of burying a St. Joseph statue can invoke the energy of positive thought. Often times, the strength and intensity of the human sprit can move mountains. Our thoughts create our future.

3. For those interested in using St. Joseph to sell property but aren’t necessarily equating it to religion, spirituality or the benefits of positive thinking…

…StJosephStatue.com will show them how St. Joseph could be instrumental in home sales when combined with marketing strategies.

FYI-StJosephStatue.com has commissioned a public opinion poll to determine the marketing methods home-sellers expect their real estate agent to use in order to increase the likelihood of selling their home. On May 17-18, 2008, this first scientific survey of it’s kind, conducted by Synovate, Inc. reveals the roll St. Joseph statues play in today’s sluggish real estate market place.

The survey will be released to the press soon and the results are surprising; they even amazed me

Phil Cates
888 BURY JOE

I sold my house two days after I listed it, and got full asking price. Imagine what might have happened if I’d buried a statue in my yard! I might have sold it BEFORE I listed it! Now that would be something.

Do you think it’ll sell faster if you get a more expensive St. J?

“If you are putting faith in something other than God then you are worshipping an idol. Putting anything before God is worshipping that object or person. It doesn’t matter what religion you put your faith in as long as god is the center of your life and He is First in everything you do.”

This seems a rather broad definition. Do you have faith in God to keep your teeth clean or do you use a tooth brush. Are you worshipping your toothbrush?

I think people are a little misinformed when it comes to statues of saints, or praying to saints. You are not worshiping the saint, you only worship God. What you are doing is asking the saint to interceed on your behalf. (Sort-of “put in a good word for me”.) It is not idolatry.

But do yourself a favor……………bury the statue behind a bush.
My neighbors think that I’ve gone mental since they’ve seen me praying on my knees in the yard every night.

Christine makes a very significant point. As a devout catholic, I do not worship saints. I worship God and only God. I hold Mary and other saints in very high esteem and I often ask for their intersession on my behalf. This is not idolatry.

Actually, its a spell. And no, you don’t have to be a “Witch” to do one.

Problem: Need to sell house quickly
Tools: Statue of St. Joseph, yard of house
Action: Burying statue with intent of selling house more quickly
Result: Hopefully your house was sold more quickly than normal

If you conciously gathered tools together with the full intention of attaining a result through means other than what is considered “typical,” you are performing magick by lending this situation your energy and hoping it transforms into something else.

Its not idolatry; its not even religious really… its magick. And I don’t mean Harry Potter magic, I mean occult magick that is still performed today. Any Neo-pagan or reconstuctionalist of ancient spirituality in this forum would attest to this.

I honestly have to say that I think that Catholics are the uninformed ones on this. The main text of Christianity (the Bible) states: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” So the idea of saintly intercession can be taken off the table pretty much wholesale as far as I see.

Additionally, I find little argument for the Catholic concept of saints. The sainthood of all believers fits the Biblical term much better than picking and choosing special people based on alleged miracles and such. There is just no Biblical basis for that kind of test.

The Mary thing seems to be even worse. I really think that in practice if not in theory, this is worship, and thus idolatry. It seems to be a widely held misconception that Mary or the saints can protect or help us. This leads to direct prayer to them for their help. This is not asking them to ask God to help us in any way.

This practice of burying statues, or using any relic to bring about a result goes pretty directly away from Catholicism and Christianity for that matter, and leans heavily towards idolatry. Christianity is not a mystical or magical religion. There is no “do these things and you’ll get this result” in Christianity.

In short, I think the Catholic Church needs to come up with a defensible stance on relics, based on Scripture. If for no other reason, then to take away the confusion amongst parishioners – I really see this leading good people in the wrong direction. But maybe that’s just why I’m not Catholic…I like to see the ‘is it Biblical’ test applied to all aspects of Christian practice.

Mike:

You might want to do a little more research. I found the following at catholic.com which outlines pretty well, the whys and wherefores of what the church teaches and the justification. For example:

“The Intercession of the Saints
Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16). ”

Regarding Idols, the website explains:

“God Said To Make Them

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”

The Religious Uses of Images

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these “graven” images, they would be practicing the “idolatry” of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named “Nehushtan”), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

Saint Worship?

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.

Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use “worship” in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word “worship.” Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word “worship” by referring to “the worship of latria” or “the worship of dulia.” To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.”

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics “worship” Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call “worship”—is to be given only to God.

Though one should know it from one’s own background, it often may be best to simply point out that Catholics do not worship anyone but God and omit discussing the history of the term. Many non-Catholics might be more perplexed than enlightened by hearing the history of the word. Familiar only with their group’s use of the term “worship,” they may misperceive a history lesson as rationalization and end up even more adamant in their declarations that the term is applicable only to God. They may even go further. Wanting to attack the veneration of the saints, they may declare that only God should be honored.

Both of these declarations are in direct contradiction to the language and precepts of the Bible. The term “worship” was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakhah. It is appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.

For example, in Genesis 37:7–9 Joseph relates two dreams that God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: “‘[B]ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshiped [shakhah] my sheaf.’ . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, ‘Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshiping [shakhah] me.’”

In Genesis 49:2-27, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: “Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons shall worship [shakhah] you (49:8).” And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: “Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshiped [shakhah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent.”

Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration, the kind of worship given to God.

Honoring Saints

Consider how honor is given. We regularly give it to public officials. In the United States it is customary to address a judge as “Your Honor.” In the marriage ceremony it used to be said that the wife would “love, honor, and obey” her husband. Letters to legislators are addressed to “The Honorable So-and-So.” And just about anyone, living or dead, who bears an exalted rank is said to be worthy of honor, and this is particularly true of historical figures, as when children are (or at least used to be) instructed to honor the Founding Fathers of America.

These practices are entirely Biblical. We are explicitly commanded at numerous points in the Bible to honor certain people. One of the most important commands on this subject is the command to honor one’s parents: “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you” (Ex. 20:12). God considered this command so important that he repeated it multiple times in the Bible (for example, Lev. 19:3, Deut. 5:16, Matt. 15:4, Luke 18:20, and Eph. 6:2–3). It was also important to give honor to one’s elders in general: “You shall rise up before the hoary head, and honor the face of an old man, and you shall fear your God: I am the Lord” (Lev. 19:32). It was also important to specially honor religious leaders: “Make sacred garments for your brother Aaron [the high priest], to give him dignity and honor” (Ex. 28:2).

The New Testament stresses the importance of honoring others no less than the Old Testament. The apostle Paul commanded: “Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due” (Rom. 13:7). He also stated this as a principle regarding one’s employers: “Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ” (Eph. 6:5). “Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed” (1 Tim. 6:1). Perhaps the broadest command to honor others is found in 1 Peter: “Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor” (1 Pet. 2:17).

The New Testament also stresses the importance of honoring religious figures. Paul spoke of the need to give them special honor in 1 Timothy: “Let the presbyters [priests] who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching” (1 Tim. 5:17). Christ himself promised special blessings to those who honor religious figures: “He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man [saint] because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward” (Matt. 10:41).

So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.

Statue Worship?

People who do not know better sometimes say that Catholics worship statues. Not only is this untrue, it is even untrue that Catholics honor statues. After all, a statue is nothing but a carved block of marble or a chunk of plaster, and no one gives honor to marble yet unquarried or to plaster still in the mixing bowl.

The fact that someone kneels before a statue to pray does not mean that he is praying to the statue, just as the fact that someone kneels with a Bible in his hands to pray does not mean that he is worshiping the Bible. Statues or paintings or other artistic devices are used to recall to the mind the person or thing depicted. Just as it is easier to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it is easier to recall the lives of the saints by looking at representations of them.

The use of statues and icons for liturgical purposes (as opposed to idols) also had a place in the Old Testament. In Exodus 25:18–20, God commanded: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.”

In Numbers 21:8–9, he told Moses: “‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.” This shows the actual ceremonial use of a statue (looking to it) in order to receive a blessing from God (healing from snakebite). In John 3:14, Jesus tells us that he himself is what the bronze serpent represented, so it was a symbolic representation of Jesus. There was no problem with this statue—God had commanded it to be made—so long as people did not worship it. When they did, the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4). This clearly shows the difference between the proper religious use of statues and idolatry.

When the time came to build the Temple in Jerusalem, God inspired David’s plans for it, which included “his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing from the hand of the Lord concerning it, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19).

In obedience to this divinely inspired plan, Solomon built two gigantic, golden statues of cherubim: “In the most holy place he made two cherubim of wood and overlaid them with gold. The wings of the cherubim together extended twenty cubits: one wing of the one, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and its other wing, of five cubits, touched the wing of the other cherub; and of this cherub, one wing, of five cubits, touched the wall of the house, and the other wing, also of five cubits, was joined to the wing of the first cherub. The wings of these cherubim extended twenty cubits; the cherubim stood on their feet, facing the nave. And he made the veil of blue and purple and crimson fabrics and fine linen, and worked cherubim on it” (2 Chr. 3:10–14).

Imitation is the Biblical Form of Honor

The most important form of honoring the saints, to which all the other forms are related, is the imitation of them in their relationship with God. Paul wrote extensively about the importance of spiritual imitation. He stated: “I urge you, then, be imitators of me. Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church” (1 Cor. 4:16–17). Later he told the same group: “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:1–2). The author of the book of Hebrews also stresses the importance of imitating true spiritual leaders: “Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith” (Heb. 13:7).

One of the most important passages on imitation is found in Hebrews. Chapter 11 of that book, the Bible’s well-known “hall of fame” chapter, presents numerous examples of the Old Testament saints for our imitation. It concludes with the famous exhortation: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us” (12:1)—the race that the saints have run before us. ”

And as for only believing what is written in the Bible, Catholics rely on scripture AND tradition, as well as church teaching

all I know is that when I went to the gift shop at St. Pete’s Church to buy a St. Joes Statue they ask me if its was to sell a house as if they kenw it was. I can’t wait to see the results of the study.

There are a lot of good points here. These diverse opinions are why this topic was of interest to me in the first place. If you’ve read my past stuff you know I see myself as a perpetual student. I love to hear different points of view. And topics such as this one, that blur the lines of religion and mysticism I find particularly interesting. I enjoy discussion and debate about things that can’t really be explained. I appreciate the comments and look forward to more discussion….

p.s. wish I could spell

Don’t bury a statue of St. Joseph. Ask his intercession by all means, but don’t bury a statue. A statue alone can’t do anything, it’s a piece of plastic. God, however, can and does work through His saints to help us here on earth. Asking a saint for prayers, which is basically what one does by asking for his help, is the same as asking a friend for help or prayers, except better since the saint is in Heaven. It’s not idolatry to honor a saint, as doing so is only honoring God and what God accomplished through this person. However, honoring a statue without honoring the saint it represents is a different story. St. Joseph helped my husband and me with our house, as he has with many of our friends. But St. Joseph helped, not just a statue. None of us buried a statue, either. We just asked for help. Have faith in God, not a statue. He can and does work through His saints, so have faith in St Joseph, too, without worrying about being idolatrous for doing so. Asking him to pray to God for you is not raising him to the level of God.

Kim, I like discussing religion, until it turns into a bashfest, or when people of one religion try to tell another religious group how to act. You asked a very interesting question. IIRC, there’s even more to the St. Joseph ritual: which direction he faces and having him face up, etc. I could be wrong on that though…I’ve never sold a house, so I haven’t appealed to him for help. But with the market the way it is today, I’d be trying everything I could to try to sell

Mom,

First I would like to say that I intend only to be constructive, and that this type of debate is good for all involved.

Secondly, you opened this door. I am only pointing out where your arguments break down. I am not bashing or telling you how to act. Catholics can Christians as a whole are commanded to spread their point of view, and we are instructed to keep each other sharp. What’s a debate without a search for truth?

Thirdly, the biggest problem I have is not with the official church doctrine, but with the lack of clarification when paritioners stray. There is plenty of prayer directly to Mary and saints for THEM to do works for us. This is not what the Church stands for, at least officially, and they should offer firm instruction against it.

The points about intercession are pretty weak as far as apologetics go. To be clear, I don’t think anybody’s saying that saints and angels don’t praise God. I think you have an uphill battle to say they hear us, and intercede for us, and furthermore even if they do hear us that does not mean we are necessarily to speak directly to them. This is a world away from praying for each other or in groups.

The Psalms 103 passage is clearly not a prayer or request. It is a declaration of saints and angels praising God.

The Psalms 148 passage is exaltation and again a declaration of the heavenly beings as well as earthly praising God. The Bible speaks of creation declaring His glory, should we pray to trees and mountains?

The passage in Revelation is the only somewhat convincing evidence, but still not enough to base doctrine on.

Examples of prayer to the dead would go a long way. The only examples we have are in reference to witchcraft. Instruction from Peter or Paul would go a very long way. We have neither. We do have Paul telling us that Jesus is the one mediator. We also have Jesus telling us how to pray to the Father.

As far as relics go, I’m not opposed to them. It’s what they easily lead to that we need to be careful of. These St. Joseph statues make the point. Keeping a statue around to remind us of his teachings is fine. Expecting a ritual surrounding the statue to bring about a result is pagan magic. This is not old testament times, and the statues are not serpents in the wilderness, the guy who pedals them for a profit is not Moses. If you thin

I don’t have a problem giving honor to great men and women of faith. But the lines between honor and adoration are blurred in practice by many Catholics. Believing that they hold special powers that they can provide if prayed to is heresy.

I have no problem with imitation at all. It’s paramount in discipleship.

Tradition is fine. It is good. It must fit in with scripture. Just because we’ve always done something doesn’t make it right, true or good. Tradition is subjective. Rejecting the word of God as final authority is a real problem for any Christian tradition.

From an earlier posting:

“Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

These angels, these hosts … Mary, St. Joseph, etc., are NOT who’s being referred to here. According to the Bible, the “angels,” the “hosts of heaven,” are an entirely different order of beings from humans.

Again, that is what the Bible teaches, and I understand that Catholic and other religious teachings state otherwise.