I want to be optimistic as well when it comes to world issues esp plight of innocent civilians in Palestine. Truth of the matter is that there can be no PEACE where JUSTICE is not served. As long as Israel continues its oppression, aggression, occupation and killing of innocent people in the name of defending itself,then how can anyone expect peace. I am amazed to hear people saying that terrorists( freedom figthers) in Palestine are attacking Israel and so Israel is defending itself. What about Israel’s more than 50 years of FORCEFUL OCCUPATION. NOBODY HAS ANY RIGHT TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE NEITHER ISRAEL NOR HAMAS. If we want to come to a common ground then we have to at least face the TRUE cause of this conflict.

Count me in!

Think anew! Both sides must think again and again and again. They are stuck in the past. Anything is possibe with tolerance and a common endeavor, like love, but then I am dreaming.

I wrote my comments this morning but after a while it was taken off, any explaination or was it too bold ?

Davel,
There is a love story between a Israeli and a Palestinian that got made into a docudrama on PBS. It was pretty lovely (well they did get married and had children. It would be nice to find out how they are doing now).

Sascha,
Sorry sometimes it takes time to get to messages. For new bloggers the message has to be approved. I do not edit messages (except for typos sometimes) regardless of the point of view offered. That is the purpose, to exchange views. I do not agree with your ‘interpretation’ of history. And that is the problem with both sides they do not realize where facts stop and interpretation starts. Since almost the beginning Israel has had a military superiority and this difference, in military strength, has grown dramatically over the decades. Yet Palestinians continue to want to make this a military struggle and then cry wolf when they come out worse. I believe civilian casualties are a terrible thing. But Israel is not the only one doing this. I have written about this at length before, you can look it up. Everyone in the world has shown disregard for civilian casualties and it isn’t something we can single Israel out on. So, both Israel and Palestinians are not really working for peace. Hence my new mantra, if they can make peace in South Africa why can you (Palestine/Israel) make peace?

Maybe he wasn’t putting yogurt in the water. Maybe he was planting a roadside bomb…

Seriously, it is a wonderful and worthy dream Khalid, and as I said last time if it can happen in Northern Ireland it can happen anywhere.

sacha,

If it’s vengance you want then count yourself part of the problem.

As long as Palestine elects terrorists (your ”freedom fighters”) to rule them, lob rockets across their border and surround their terrorist freedom fighters with innocent people, the blood is on their hands.

Palestine must be free of Hamas before they could be free of any percieved Israeli oppression. And the PLO, and any other wolf in sheeps clothing they choose to elect. If you are led by those who will not stop fighting until Israel is gone, then you will never have peace in Palestine.

Mike,

I would say look in the mirror. Everything you say fits you as well. If by your standard everything Israel does is in response to Palestine and is totally justified then you too are part of the problem. This same argument is used by both Palestinians and Israelis to justify their actions. “They are bad, we are good, we have no choice”. Well both are wrong. Both have a choice its just that neither really wants peace yet. So, if we REALLY care for there to be peace we have to ask BOTH sides “if they can have peace in South Africa (or N. Ireland if you please) why can’t you make peace?”

There is one thing in favor of Israel. There is a small peace movement there. This gets ridiculously little coverage here in the States so for this reason I am copying the entire article from Israel that was sent by a good friend. We can hope that this peace movement grows and the voices for peace in Palestine can also coalesce in to a unified peace movement.

January 14, 2009

TEL AVIV, ISRAEL - At a press conference yesterday, Israeli political party Brit Olam announced its plan to change the leadership in Israel.

“A new approach is needed because the old way of doing things is clearly
not working,” said Ofer Lifschitz. Mr. Lifschitz ran as the number one
candidate on Brit Olam’s 2006 slate and today serves as its party chair. He expressed dismay at the lack of vision with the current Israeli leadership, “If we prolong the status quo and fail to support the dignity and rights of all, then the suffering that we all see today will surely continue.”

Brit Olam, in Hebrew “Eternal Convenant” or “World Alliance”, has put
forward the most diverse slate of candidates in the nation’s upcoming 18th
Knesset Election. The party list includes secular and religious Jews, Arab
Druze, Hasidic and Breslov orthodox–and has been endorsed by several
prominent Israeli Arab leaders in the Muslim community.
Israel is often cited as a “lone democracy” in the Middle East. Two days
ago, a Knesset Elections Committee voted to remove Israel’s Arab Parties
despite the fact that they were legally seated. This unexpected turn of
events has underscored the importance of Brit Olam’s inclusive role in the
upcoming election, namely, as a referendum condemning the dismantling of
democratic principles.

“The loosening of one-sided politics and prejudiced parties by our
broad-based coalition makes Brit Olam a shining example of democracy in
action,” proclaimed Joel Zeitlin (#8 on slate), formally with the right-wing orthodox party Yahadut Hatorah. “Brit Olam’s politics are neither Left nor Right, but rather hold a holistic and Universal perspective.”

Several members of the humanitarian Hatnua Lema’an Yeladeinu (Movement for
our Children) have joined the Brit Olam coalition. Ya’akov Elia (#6 slate), through his work as an independent social service auditor, uncovered disturbing evidence negatively impacting children. Mr. Elia intoned, “34% of Israel’s children live in poverty. It is unacceptable that this Western country leads the modern world with the highest percentage of children suffering in a state of resource deprivation. Tens of thousands of these at-risk youth have been surrendered into an inefficiently state-run program costing billions resulting in disastrous emotional and Spiritual consequences. “Left unchecked, child impoverishment leads to countless other societal ills affecting everyone.”

Brit Olam’s Ya’akov Elia has dedicated himself to exposing this injustice,
and will spearhead a comprehensive legislative plan to address this problem.

Kinneret Golan, a media professional and mother of two, heads the Brit Olam slate of candidates. At last night’s meeting she expressed dismay at the number of lives lost in Gaza, and sympathy for those Israelis under the threat of rocket attack, she echoed the call for change, “We have had enough of our Prime Minister, Foreign Minister and Defense Minister constantly telling us that we have no choice. We deserve leaders in the Knesset with vision, individuals driven to do whatever is necessary to get us there.” Ms.Golan, active with various humanitarian and environmental groups, is one of two women on the Brit Olam slate. Kinneret Golan is a passionate advocate for exploring alternative political solutions to the seemingly intractable Israeli / Palestinian conflict. “As long as peace is only a dream we are all going to wake up in the morning and see that we are still at war; we must vigorously pursue our working together to make this dream a reality.”

Brit Olam (”Eternal Convenant” or “World Alliance”) is an Israeli olitical
Party running for Israel’s Parliamentarian Elections to be held on ebruary
10, 2009 Website: http://www.Brit-Olam.org

Thank you Khalid, for being willing to take your stand.

Peacemaking is hard work. Perhaps even harder in this situation more than in others like Ireland or South Africa. Why? Because everyone involved does have legitimate grievances.

On the comparison to South Africa, I’m reminded of a movie I saw about it. I don’t remember the title, but it starred Julliete Binoche and Samuel L. Jackson, and it was about the Truth and Reconciliation hearings. The biggest impediment to Peace there, and in the middle east, is the unwillingness of all parties to actually face the truth. Pilate famously asked “what is Truth?”, and we find ourselves asking the same things.

Each person on the ground there, and here as well, has what they believe the truth is. To make peace, however, each person has to be willing to not only state their truth…but they have to be willing to hear the other person’s truth. Further, everyone has to be willing to face the consequences of their share of what has gone on.

The Palestinian Authority MUST face the fact that they, and their predecessors (Arafat in particular) have not truly kept the welfare of their people in the forefront. The missing Billions of Dollars must be accounted for.

The other Middle Eastern States (Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iran, Iraq) MUST face the fact that they have a part in keeping the camps open. Again, they were more interested in getting rid of Israel than in actually taking care of their brethren.

Israel, also, needs to face the truth. They have not been the saints they think they have been. They have, all too often, treated the non Jews in their lands as lesser people, as people to be held in contempt. They hold themselves out as a beacon of Democracy and so on…while they wall off their own citizens. The fortress Israel mentality is a big part of the problem.

Answers? I don’t know that I have one. Maybe the Christian, the Jew, and the Moslem can all come together at the grave of Abraham, as the sons of Abraham did at his death. Maybe, there, is where Peace can begin.

hs suggested

Maybe the Christian, the Jew, and the Moslem can all come together at the grave of Abraham, as the sons of Abraham did at his death. Maybe, there, is where Peace can begin.

Genesis 25
5 Abraham left everything he owned to Isaac. 6 But while he was still living, he gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and sent them away from his son Isaac to the land of the east.

9 His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah near Mamre, in the field of Ephron son of Zohar the Hittite, 10 the field Abraham had bought from the Hittites. [b] There Abraham was buried with his wife Sarah. 11 After Abraham’s death, God blessed his son Isaac,

17 Altogether, Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. 18 His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go toward Asshur. And they lived in hostility toward [c] all their brothers.

Just a reality check.Surely wish it were as simple as just meeting together.Showing respect for a common father does not form an automatic respect for each other.

But,having said that, It is ok to dream a little.

As I’ve mentioned before, I have a daughter who has joined the Society of Friends. If you know anything about the Quakers, you should know that they hold Peacemaking as one of the most important principles of living. The basic premise of the Peace Testimony is really very, very simple.

Like all things that are simple, it is terribly difficult to carry out. The simple statement is this: All people have ‘that of God’ within them. If I recognize that, and allow that of God within me to love that of God within you, then I am forced to see everyone else as my absolute equal before God. Further, it requires me to understand that if I do violence either in word or deed to another person, I am attacking that of God within that person. And God will hold me to account for that.

Do me a favor, all of you, don’t throw the “what would you do if a madman was in your house with a gun, would you just let him shoot you?” question. That completely misses the point. Look at it this way, if I’m making the effort to live in Peace, and I die in the effort at the hands of a madman or a mob, I can take comfort in the words of Jesus: “Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.”

everyone has geat comments on this issue. Part of making a change in any given situation is to improve ourselves. The Palestinian and Israeli conflict is not just MidEast issue. It is a problem and concern for all of us esp. Muslims, Jews and Christians living in USA and all over the world. Interfaith partnership and dialogue groups can bring us together atleast for common human interests for all involve i.e: PEACE. We all have significant differences but I am sure we can find common ground. In order to achieve this we will have to get involved and talk with each other and try to accept our differences and appreciate our similarities. Ultimately we all are offsprings of one man–Adam. Good day, Salam, Shalom, Peace.

029.046 وَلا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ
029.046 And do not argue with the followers of earlier revelation otherwise than in a most kindly manner – unless it be such of them as are bent on evildoing -and say: “We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you: for our God and your God is one and the same, and we are all Muslims.”

The last part (i.e., ‘we are all Muslims) is my literal translation of the arabic ‘wa nahnu lahu muslimoon’. The word Muslim literally means a person who believes in a Creator and is living their life in a manner to please the Creator. The word Muslim does not imply that it is someone who follows the revelation (Qur’an) given to Prophet Muhammad. And here in this verse of the Qur’an by specially calling Christians and Jews as Muslim this is being made very plain. We do have a lot in common and if we can dialogue in a respectful manner there is much that can be achieved.

For the past two years a group of Muslims (including me and my wife) have been meeting monthly with members of Temple Israel and doing a joint study of the Torah and Qur’an. It has been a most rewarding experience and I would recommend it to everyone as a great way to learn your own faith. And in the process we have also built some mutual trust which is essential for peaceful relations.

So, shah, what have you said lately to your friends in Darfur?

Who the hell are you to tell Jews in America what they “must” say to their “friends” in Israel. Get your own house in order. Stop the cutting off of hands and the discrimination against women in saudi arabia, not to mention the decapitations which go on all over the moslem world. Tell your friends ot keep their heads and get back on their meds.

Even AMERICAN Jews, from their cushy non-threatened perspective, know—most of them—what happens when Jews who are attacked don’t fight back with force.

And, by the way, there IS no palestine.

Dream on, of fairytale spain maybe.

Irv,

There is a Jewish joke that if there are 4 Jews in a room there are at least 5 opinions. It isn’t as diverse among Muslims but still there is a lot of differences. I have at least as many Jewish friends here as Muslim friends and I don’t have any friends in Sudan. Thank God not all Jews are like you and not all Muslims are the same either. Hate only eats us from within and doesn’t effect the other person. As for giving advice, I will give good advice to my friends and who would want to be friends and accepting good advice is only to our own benefit. But you don’t have to take my advice. Clearly there are many Jews and Muslims within Israel and Palestine working together. Those who want to keep flaming the fires of hatred, be they Jews or Muslims, are not real well wishers of Israel or Palestinians.

Finally, the land is called Palestine and always has been called Palestine. It has a country on part of it today called Israel and the rest of the area for lack of a better term is called Palestine. But all of it is Palestine, including Israel. That is just a fact. Doesn’t matter if you have two countries there or ten. Just like Europe is called Europe regardless of whether part of it was/is Gaul or France or the Austro-Hungarian Empire the land is called Europe. This is a rather simple concept.

Khalid,
So if i were brought up in the muslim community;even say if I were your son;then could I say I wish to worship as the christians or the jews and be referred to as such.Would this or would it not be a problem in Palestine,or here for that matter?Since by your interpretation we are all muslims by definition.Could I as a muslim(i.e. your own son) make a ‘paralell’ conversion to Christianity and suffer zero reprecussions from you or the muslim community? Just trying to understand.

What What,

I am running out the door and your question deserves a longer answer. But a short one will have to do. There are muslims converting to Christianity all the time. The Qur’an says clearly ‘there is no compulsion in religon’. I know that there are highly publicised cases where some Muslim community has reacted strongly against a conversion. But that is against the teachings of the Qur’an. I am taking my definition of the term Muslim from the Qur’an, i.e., how the Qur’an defines this term. Unfortunately most Muslims do not understand this………yet

Hope that helps.

shah - you’ve accused me of hate twice. when you have nothing worthwhile to say, you attack, ad hominem. Pretty much like the koran does. And mein kampf.

You don’t know me, so to say that not all Jews are like me, apart from belaboring the obvious, is especially pointless in the context of this blog. Those in Israel who aren’t “like me” will eventually perish at the hands of your “friends”. Those in the West who aren’t will not survive as Jews, most likely achieving their confused goals in that respect.

As for “palestine”, either you are totally ignorant or want to make some obscure and unknowable nonpoint. The “land” has not “always” been known as “palestine”. Not even close. For more than a millenium the portion of british mandate palestine from the [now] jordanian heights to the Mediterranean and from approximately tyre south to about Be’ersheva was known as Yehudah and as Yisroel and as Judea. You must be hallucinating again. The name “palestine” dates from late roman times, and approximately 60% of the “palestine” of the british and united nations mandate is currently occupied by the serfdom of jordan. There is currently no portion of that former mandate known as “palestine”.

Wake up, smell the roses, get off your high hump and tell your “friends” in hamasia to start building a society, and stop firing rockets into Israel.

Khalid Shah
Yes It helps to a degree.But your answer is very vague and impersonal.There are extremes which every one is aware of for almost any group.

You stated-
There are muslims converting to Christianity all the time. The Qur’an says clearly ‘there is no compulsion in religon’. I know that there are highly publicised cases where some Muslim community has reacted strongly against a conversion.

In your sphere of influence there may not be strong reaction against a conversion,but would there be any reaction against a conversion?Would I be free to disbelieve Islam and have nothing change in our relationship if I were once in your Muslim community. Would I be free to just walk away and follow one of the other paths,and yet still sup with you.
Again just seeking understanding.Truth of what I believe is what would I do personally.Not just what some have done.

whatwhat,

You did ask a specific question and yes I did give a general answer. For two reasons. One I was rushed but also I do not have a son or daughter so the answer would always be theoretical. But I am happy to answer it. What we want for our children is to be successful and good human beings. If that means they choose to not be Muslim (in the sense society uses it) then so be it. The problem really in the question you pose is the phrase ‘your son’. While many parents look upon children as a possession (and this is certainly true in muslim countries) that is a most inappropriate view. The Qur’an in one place states that ‘your children are like ornaments’. Which I take to mean that you may value them but they have little intrinsic value to you. We are given the example of the son of Noah. Rejecting the path of his father, he is of no use to the father in the next life. While in Islam we do believe that our good deeds do reflect well on our parents it is true that anyone we teach or nurture into becoming a good person their deeds reflect good on us and in this sense we are their ‘parents’. In Islam we consider ourselves all the children of Prophet Muhammad and of Prophet Abraham. Not in a physical sense but a spiritual sense. Inheritors of their good character (hopefully).

So to complete the answer, me personally I would keep good relations with my son if he is a good person regardless of his faith and would be distant if he is not a good person. Some of the best people I know in the world are Christians so becoming a Christian is not a bad thing……….and the corollary is also true. Becoming a Muslim is not a bad thing either. When Mike Tyson initially became a Muslim a Christian friend asked me what I thought and I said if it makes him a better person then it is good but if it doesn’t change his behavior then it was useless. To me the label is not important. Certainly a person being a good Christian is preferable to if they were a bad Muslim. Perhaps this helps.

Irv,
Everything you write drips of hate and I feel sorry for you. Unfortunately there is no civil dialogue possible with someone like you. So feel free to blog and rest assured I won’t be responding to you. If , however, you do write things that are excessively hateful I reserve the right to omit them from my blog entries.

Khalid Shah
Definitely helpful in appreciating your blogs and your sincerity.Thank you for your time and candor.I am also impressed with your reserve in dealing with other comments made on this blog.Again I thank you.

I want to be straight and clear in my remark without being disrespectful, and at the same time challenge an intent I am hearing in this thread.

If we are tempting the writer, picking a fight in other words, under the guise of “learning”. It exposes the distrust inherent in this conflict.

Another way is to ask if there are Christians who believe that those who do not profess a belief in Jesus are condemned to Hell or, how many others represent a similar belief in their faith?

For me, it is difficult to imagine any faith condemning non believers. As Christian, I do not, and therefore would not act that way in the world.

I do hear a lot of fear being generated in the world by those using Osama Bin Laden’s words as examples of his religion’s belief. My own faith guides me to not deal in his words. As I will not use my faith to condmen others, I will not use another’s to do the same.

It has been my feeling for some time that the resolution of the problem of radical Islam will be found within Islam itself. I do not, for a minute believe that Osama Bin Laden and other radicals represent mainstream Islam..any more than Jim Jones, David Koresh, Matthew Hale, and others represent Christianity.

Mr. Shah is a voice of moderate Islam. Why do we demand he justify the radicals? He is speaking out against the radicals, and he’s doing it in our presence. Why not support him?

Another said
I want to be straight and clear in my remark without being disrespectful, and at the same time challenge an intent I am hearing in this thread.

You were neither straight nor clear.
Khalid was both.

Why label yourself as a christian?

shah - you are a complete fraud, capable only of making unfounded accusations, incapable of responding coherently to facts. Not even once. “palestine” always existed? Well, no, not even close. shah: “how shall i respond? i know—I’ll just accuse him of hate and then cut him off!” Brilliant. Where was your voice when the rockets were falling on Israel, as they still are?

I couldn’t care less what you feel for me. you mean nothing to me. I feel nothing for you but contempt. Not hate—disgust. like hamas. And this is not your blog, phony. So cut off my microphone at your whim—just like saddam hussein used to do. That’s your response to what you are incapable of responding to with rationality. Typical.

Continue talking to yourself.

whatwhat, Another, hs,

I do welcome your comments and debate. Dialogue can and should be vigorous. When we were in Arizona we started, with others, a Halaqa (a circle). Half the members were Sunni and half Shia. We would start and end each meeting with a prayer to make sure that everyone understood we are here for God. And in between we would have very vigorous debates on just about every topic. It brought us very close to each other and helped us overcome suspicion borne of unfamiliarity. In 1993 we were part of an effort initiated by Stephanie Stanley to set up an interfaith dialogue group. And we adopted, with slight modification, the Halaqa concept. We would start and end each session by holding hands in a circle and one of the members leading everyone in prayer. The initial group had 4 Muslims, 4 Jews and 6 Christians. In our meetings the debate would on occasion get quite heated but the prayers always brought us back together. Most of the initial group stayed together for nearly 8 years and we have shared many of the religious events with each other. Gul (my wife) and I have attended many a Seder at friends house’s. The group is still in existence although many of the initial members are not there (a number have passed away, may God be pleased with them) and members of other faiths have also joined. Trust is key to dialogue and by making joint prayer central to the meetings I think it is useful to ask questions that are deep within us. Currently we have such a dialogue going on with Temple Israel and I am also in a bible/Qur’an study done by the Aquinas Institute. Both are most enriching meetings. Questions asked in earnest I never find offensive. Thank you for your comments.

If this ‘yoghurt’ is going to catch it will take a lot of very probing questions to help us understand each other and help build trust between us. All of our survival depends on this. This is a bit on another subject but the real struggle today is not between religious radicals and moderates. The real struggle is between religion and non-religion. And in this second struggle all people of faith are really on the same side, whether we realized it or not.

Evidently understanding that you cand sit in a circle singinc kumbaya with Hamas makes you a hateful person. I agree that Mr. Shah is doing a good job of phony pragmatism. He wants peace at the hands of Israel doing all the work, admitting they were wrong without mentioning that the real problem is within Palestine. Palestine cannot be at peace with Israel as long as they choose evil to lead them. Terror does not spue peace, and Hamas will wipe Israel off the map if allowed.

The problem is in the house of Islam…not to say that there is not wrong on all sides, you put those words in my mouth Mr. Shah…but if you want peace, then be a realist and admit it starts within Islam.

whatwhat,

I apologize.

My point, the acceptance of those we perceive as non believers is dependent on the strength of your own faith. The stronger your faith, the greater your capacity to be with others. Being with others is the intent of faith.

Any faith that promotes itself as exclusive creates a conflcit with its own morality to manage relationships to the glory of God.

I believe that acknowledging that the commitment to faith is complete when it generates acceptance is the challenge of believing in anything.

My faith is fully realized when it is free of any conditions. It becomes the one true path for me. From that space, I am free to share what I have gotten for myself.

The pitfall is that we use the guise of selflessness to make it about others.

The position that the problem is with others gives the problem to others, and the responsibility for it to others.

In that view, Israel is a victim of Hamas, and must depend on Hamas for peace, and visa versa.

That is a view of cynicism and resignation, and will hold the conflict in place.

Peace will be possibile when both give up that the other is wrong, and share the desire for peace.

Our role is to be a call for peace, and not speak in a way that promotes righteousness as encouragement to either side.

Our speaking can be for the absurdity of violence and the beauty of peace. Relentlessly!