If it is a Loving God, shouldn’t that be reflected in us?
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Muslims and Christians can argue with each other forcefully as to who considers God more loving. Each will argue that their faith has a more loving image of God. Yet we can find plenty of examples, among both, of people who say they believe that God is a loving God, yet their own words and deeds show that none of this love is being reflected in them. If we believe God to be loving then why can God not love others? Why do we feel compelled to be the ‘enforcer’ of what ‘we’ consider to be God’s commands? Will God only love us if we make sure others are obeying God’s commands? Will God only love us if we are obedient to God’s commands?
One Ummah shiatv.net
One tension, I guess, is the balance between being an individual and being part of the community. If we are part of a community, be that a village, a clan, an ethnic group or a nation, then we have to live in harmony and follow rules of morality should of the community. But being in a community means there are obligations and there are benefits. We have to live according to what the whole community deems correct but the community also takes care of its own; the community takes care of the weak and the fallen.
Unfortunately, many who want to enforce God’s commands on others very strong in the other aspect of community; that is taking care of our own. Niether Muslim fundamentalists, who are becoming increasingly intolerant of ‘others’, nor be it Christian fundamentalists, who argue strongly for certain issues especially a ban on abortion, is strong in community welfare. It is plain to see in the current debate over health care reform which is strongly driven by personal selfish concerns with nary a thought of the poor and destitute. It can also be seen in the lack of effort to pull people out of poverty, so that we, the richest nation ever has among us some living in abject poverty. This is also true of Muslim fundamentalists. Prophet Muhammad once said that all believers are like ‘one body’, if one part is in pain the whole body suffers. With over 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide and many being very wealthy it is a testament to their lack of observing this edict from the Prophet that great majority of Muslims live in poverty and are illiterate while Muslim fundamentalists argue about such ‘important issues’ like the proper way to greet one another and what foot to enter the mosque with!
So how can religious fundamentalists be made aware of this one sided self righteous view of their faith that they are portraying? How can they be approached to do better?
One response is to say you have to decide, are we a community so that we enforce uniform moral laws of God AND takes care of our own or not? A community must do both things and if we are not willing to undertake the welfare responsibility as a community then don’t try to enforce God’s law, let God decide the fate of ‘others’, don’t involve in what you consider their morally bad actions. If you are against abortion, don’t have one (and for men, don’t have sex outside marriage for that may lead to an abortion), if you are against homosexuality don’t engage in it, etc. Keep morality a personal issue only. But if you want to enforce community laws of morality then step up to also support community welfare. Otherwise it isn’t about God’s laws and God’s commandments. Such blunt advice usually is not received well. The fundamentalists want to enforce THEIR morality on others but they do not want to help in the welfare.
The gentler approach hasn’t been tried much. It is more difficult but, if they would listen, perhaps someone can make them aware of the true loving nature of God. The Christian and Muslim fundamentalists have forgotten the true loving nature of God because God’s love sure isn’t reflected in their words and their actions……let’s see if the comments this time support or contradict these observations! 
Khalid Shah, 50, is an American Muslim who came to the U.S. 32 years ago. He and his wife have lived in the St. Louis area since 1990, and have been active in a variety of interfaith activities as well as in the local Muslim communities. They have both spoken about Islam at a variety of houses of worship. After working as an engineer for most of his career, he is currently a small business owner. 
Khalid, good luck with this one. I agree with you, wholeheartedly. The ones who drive me nuts, personally, are those Christians who have no problem proclaiming that they live under Grace, and who in the next breath demand that unbelievers adhere to all the jots and tittles of the Mosaic Law (the moral parts, anyway).
The problem, fundamentally, is that it’s hard work to follow the second great commandment, to love one’s neighbor as oneself. So many of us find ourselves asking the question that led to the Parable of the Good Samaritan: “who is my neighbor?”; And then find ourselves repelled by the answer, as the teachers of the Law were repelled by the answer found in the parable.
The other thing I notice is a bit more subtle, and is lost to many. I notice that many people are very different in one-on-one interactions, particularly with those they know well, than how they are in group or public settings. I know people who hold some very extreme views about Homosexuals, for example…except for the one in their family. The challenge for the believer is to treat everyone as if they are family…and that is really, really hard.
Here’s what I’ve noticed in my lifetime of studying people: The ones who are most likely able to truly act in loving ways to all they meet, are the ones who have personally looked into the abyss and found their way out. As it is said in some circles, “A drowning man can be remarkably open minded.” If you’ve lost everything, and have to depend on the good will and agape love of others to survive, then I guarantee your attitude will change. It will change positively if you actually receive that love….and it can turn to bitterness and anger if you don’t.
A few scriptural texts that come to mind:
“Out of the abundance of the heart, a man speaks…”
“..And what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God”
“Love is patient and kind, it is not jealous or boastful….”
“Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do…”
“..how many times must I forgive? I say to you, you must forgive 70 times 7 times…”
“….sell all you have, give to the poor, and then come follow me….”
Were Mr. Shah to follow his own earnest admonition to “keep morality a personal issue only”, he would not have posted this blog in the public sphere. As such, this logical fallacy belies his intended point.
hs said:
“The ones who drive me nuts, personally, are those Christians who have no problem proclaiming that they live under Grace, and who in the next breath demand that unbelievers adhere to all the jots and tittles of the Mosaic Law (the moral parts, anyway).”
I suppose this means that when you enter the temple to pray, it is thus:
“O Lord, I thank you that I am not like other Christians, or even like this ‘fundamentalist’ (ick!) over there. I only say compassionate things out of all my words; I NEVER judge anyone at all more than twice a week; I am quick to be nicer than even I perceive Jesus would have been; and I never publicly air what I see to be the faults of other Christians, treating everyone like family - except anyone who will negatively criticize me when I am trying to display my broadmindedness and sympathy.”
I know the different religions like to see themselves as seperate, but honestly, they are all the same. Religions are a way for humans to place themselves in categories (us and them) and thus, we like to support us, before we support them.
The tenants of a religion (be nice) are secondary to the support of the religion itself. The only way around this is for people to drop their mythology in the first place….well not completely…drop the mystical mumbo jumbo that is a man-made fantasy, and simply teach the lessons on how to be a good human being.
I do agree with you HS you had a good point!
Todd DiRoberto
http://www.newsguide.us/art-entertainment/movies/Todd-DiRoberto-of-American-Satellite-Hosts-Independence-Day-Charity-Event-for-Operation-Bigs/
Lets face facts theocracy is what these people want. American colonists were once under such a government and there were bloody codes that provided for death for over 250 different crimes. An Anglican priest could put us to death without trial. Men had to be members in good standing of the Anglican church to have any position in society. This tryanny reigned here for hundreds of years until this tyranny was overthown by brave men my ancestors. I do not want to mix politics with religion now or ever. The people that do are a threat to good order and liberty. They should be driven from office.
hs, This is in regard to your statement, “The ones who drive me nuts, personally, are those Christians who have no problem proclaiming that they live under Grace, and who in the next breath demand that unbelievers adhere to all the jots and tittles of the Mosaic Law (the moral parts, anyway).”
I believe you have stated you are Presbyterian, which I am also. As such, we know those of the Reformed Faith speak a lot about grace. Nevertheless, we also seek to adhere to any Old Testament “moral law” that is reaffirmed in the New Testament. Therefore, the jots and tittles you speak of really are Gospel and epistle-related. At the same time, the effort is not to “keep the law” in order to gain salvation, but rather to prove our love for our Trinitarian God by obeying the principles He has set forth clearly in the New Covenant that includes Gentile believers with Jewish believers. There is a recognition of His holiness and purity and the fact that He said: “Be holy, as I am holy.”
True, it is difficult to demand unbelievers adhere to all the jots and tittles of the Mosaic Law. But I don’t think that is what they/we do. At the same time, morality affects families and society, and they/we may continue to push for their prominence in our society for its welfare. Bearing false witness against others should not be tolerated. Stealing from others shouldn’t be tolerated. Committing adultery with someone else’s spouse shouldn’t be tolerated. Why, these and other moral failings hurt society.
Just some thoughts.
So eating pork is no longer prohibited, being circumcised is no longer required. Nevertheless holiness and purity of life remain in effect.
Khalid
Is the only way to serve and tend to the welfare of the community through the government and legislation?
You seem to be passionate about taking care of and providing for the less fotunate.
Maybe you could share with the participants of this blog some of your own
personal “hands on” experience of engagement with the welfare of the community.It might add meaning to your position.
I would think that if God were a loving God, and we were to reflect that love, there would be enough voluntary help from those whom God has so abundantly blessed that the needs of the community would more than taken care of without governmental involvement.
Do we need laws to compel us to love one another?
hs,
Good comments and wonderful quotes from scripture. Would be nice if you can provide the reference (i.e, ch/verse). What you said about those who have looked into the abyss reminded me of our discussion a few weeks ago on the ‘benefits of sin’. It does help to be knocked off our high horse otherwise the inclination to be become self righteous is very strong.
whatwhat,
you seem to be missing the point. If we are a community then all of us, ESPECIALLY those that love God, should want to pony up to help those who need help and yes if all of us did that everyone in our nation would be taken care of. Community is not just about laws it is also about helping the weak in the community to regain their strength. Everyone needs help at one time or another. If we oppose legislation to help the poor and needy then it seems rather hypocritical to want to use legislation to impose moral laws.
Helen Louise…
Good to hear from you, I haven’t seen you post much lately. Actually, I’ve been reading the “Institutes” this year…at least trying to, this being the 500th birthday year of John Calvin. You’re right, he says a lot about Grace.
My point that I was trying to make early this morning is specifically aimed towards those who seem to glory in not having to worry about the Law, but yet who demand that others, who don’t think or believe as they do, must adhere to it. And, I think you know exactly the attitude that I’m talking about.
I think I do get Khalid’s initial point very clearly: If a person proclaims publicly that he/she worships a God of love, then shouldn’t that person’s every act towards others be motivated by that Love? This gets to the heart of what religion is all about.
Khalid….my references that you asked for:
“Out of the abundance of the heart, a man speaks…” Matthew 12:34
“..And what does the Lord require of you, but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God” Micah 6;8
“Love is patient and kind, it is not jealous or boastful….”1 Cor 13:1
“Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do…” Luke 23:34
“..how many times must I forgive? I say to you, you must forgive 70 times 7 times…” Matthew 18: 21,22
“….sell all you have, give to the poor, and then come follow me….” Matthew 19:21
whatwhat: regardless of whether caring for the poor is a “government” or “individual” function, if we are proclaiming that we have (or desire) a moral society, wouldn’t care for the poor be a chief concern of that society? I would suggest that ANY “individual” or “group” function can become a “government” function by default..when the individuals and groups don’t do what they are supposed to do.
This is a red herring argument. In a truly moral society, operated under truly moral internal rules, the care of the poor and needy wouldn’t become a government function, would it? By making the argument that this isn’t government’s job, you’re admitting that (a) it needs to happen and (b) those who should be doing it voluntarily aren’t doing it, or aren’t doing enough of it.