So our great moral leader is allowing OUR tax money to support overseas abortion. I for one want my money back - I don’t want it going to that cause.

Not the act of one who wants fewer abortions, but wishes to see it used as a tool around the world.

Your hope has been misplaced in this man.

You guys that voted for him can take solace in the fact that he really doesn’t agree with abortion, just wants to make sure everybody can get one.

Tim, I can only say that I’m glad that you don’t get to determine whether I have a legitimate relationship with Jesus Christ, and whether my confession of faith is sufficient for my salvation.

Mike, since you brought it up, where is the Christian justification for torture?

Let’s say that abortion is made illegal. Who is the criminal? The doctor who performs it? The woman who has it? Both?

Yes, both. Abortion is just another form of murder, no different from matricide or regicide or uxoricide. In the same way that we convict both the man who hires the assassin and the assassin himself, we should convict both the persons who procure the abortion and the abortionist himself. It might be that there are mitigating circumstances which should reduce the sentence we assign to those procuring the abortion in this or that case, but all voluntary parties to the act are doing wrong.

Mike, since you brought it up, where is the Christian justification for torture?

Mike can, of course, speak for himself, but unless I am mistaken, I take it that he means that there is no Christian justification for torture; just as there is no Christian justification for abortion. Both are wrong, and thus both should be illegal (although, unfortunately, in our dazed and confused society both are legally permissible).

Don’t get me wrong. I was making a point by drawing an absurd parellel to torture. I’m not justifying torture, I’m pointing out Obama’s inconsistencies - and the inconsistencies of those who want to join Oprah’s obama love club.

He takes says he wants to get rid of torture, so he takes action on it. He says he wants to reduce abortion so he promotes it as a social engineering tool around the world. If he would double speak on torture the way he does on abortion we would all call him a fool.

And I think Tim’s saying that you are drawing your position from outside of christianity. Christianity cannot support that view. People who are christians can hold non-christian views. The words “you can’t be a christian and hold ___ view” don’t mean you’re not a christian if you hold that view. Just that you can’t justify the view as a christian.

Let me clearly spell out my abortion opinion.

First, if an abortion is being done for convenience or birth control, then it should be forbidden. This means, if the mother is unwilling or unable to raise the child due to marital issues, financial issues, job issues, or whatever, then there is a solution for her. It’s called adoption or birth control before the fact.

This will eliminate the vast majority of abortions.

Second, for the remainder of the cases, things like rape, incest, medical issues involving the mother, and the rare non-survivable birth defects, I would hold that the decision to abort or not is best left to the adults directly involved. These are tragic situations, and I am not wise enough to prescribe for someone else what their action must be.

You can’t arrive at the rape and incest exclustions through logic.

I know it sounds heartless, but if we are saying a living innocent baby is involved then what’s the real greater good? Intent of the parents has nothing to do with the fact that this is a human being.

I’d be happy to hold off legislation about this tiny minority of abortions if the first category were dealt with first - the overwhelmeing 95% or so if I remember correctly.

GrzeszDeL,

I thought some more about what it is that bothers me about the ad. There are 2 debates in this thread, the ad and whether it “works,” and abortion and how to make a difference in it.

In the secular world we have laws and we put them in place with agreement. In that context, as a seclular debate the ad works and is very effective and wins on points, big time.

People who break these agreements are to be dealt with by the system in the world as created by humans. Jesus accepts this as the ways of the world and advises us to obey the laws of our communities.

For those who are believers in this world, the power of one’s faith is to have this conversation and agreement within the context of your “own” faith.

Collapsing the ways of the faithful into the ways of the world is a temptation. Taking the message to mean making the laws of the world answer to the laws of God corrupts them both. This is the example of the Pharisees and the Taliban.

It is the nature of humans to hide there own accountability within this collapse. This is where hypocrisy resides. They place themselves on the “right” side of the “law” for the sake of righteousness. It becomes the business of forcing people to abide the law for righteousness sake and they miss the opportunity to accept it as love. Bigger game, bigger stakes!

Calling out a sinner falls into this temptation, and doing it publically is no different than the woman being accused and called to be stoned by the mob in front of Jesus.

We forget these simple lessons in our rush to righteousness.

Have the conversation, call for laws banning abortion and embryonic stem cell research, share the impact our faith has on this conversation. Do not, in your own eyes, make the other person a sinner. This is God’s business.

Another important point, having these conversations within this forum is different. This is within the church community where people enter with the expectation that these issues are discussed, ideas and thoughts are revealed, and sharing our doubts and emotions are given space This is a safe place for this conversation.

“Oh, and nuanced seems to be a nice way to say two-faced.”

It is, and I do it for my own benefit.

It is better for me to declare my view of his distinctions regarding life as subtle. It allows me to share my frustration with what appears to be his ambiguity.

I could call him a liar and be done with him. Jesus asks that I do not do that, and one of the desciples asks that I do it only if it threatens my own faith.

Obama’s position on abortion is no temptation for me. I am clear where I stand on it.