Wow, Pamela, getting right at it this morning?

How does this tie in with the vision of the Church as Sanctuary? It even raises a bigger issue than the specific one about second amendment rights and so on. The bigger issue, to me, is what is the proper place for the church in society, and where should the church stand on issues of nationalism and patriotism?

Personally, I think the confluence of patriotism and faith is dangerous for the church. I think the church corporate is treading on extremely thin ice when it wraps the Bible in the Flag. The popular song, frequently sung around this time of year, that starts with a patriotic ode to the Statue of Liberty and ends with homage to the Cross seems sacrilegious to me. I find myself disturbed every time I drive past a particular church in my town that has two flagpoles out front, one flying the stars and stripes, and one flying the christian tri-color…and the stars and stripes are on a taller pole. The rules of heraldry tell me that their first allegiance is to the country over God. I have a problem with that.

And yet, one of my favorite hymns from the old hymnals is “God of our Fathers, whose Almighty Hand” complete with trumpets. Particularly in the 2nd and 3rd verses, it is unblushingly patriotic.

I guess I’m not exactly sure where the line belongs, but encouraging folks to bring their favorite firearms to church to celebrate the second amendment seems to be a bit much.

It’s sad that these people are making their guns into golden calves to worship on the alter. Perhaps they need to recognize that the Second Commandment is more important than the second amendment.

The idea that people would bring their guns to church and bow down before the cult of the gun is sickening.

I can appreciate education opportunites regarding issues around guns. You do not have to bring your gun to church to accomplish that.

A gun safety class is best provided in a facility design for that purpose. A church is not, unless they are meeting at the local firing range.

Nothing about this holds up to scrutiny. Must be something we do not know. Like, THEY ARE CRAZY!!!!!

PS: we have blood drives and car washes at our church on Saturdays.

Pamela,

You’re looking at this from a perspective that can get you killed. Others have surly been killed by their inability to look at a situation logically. Lets apply some logic to the question and see what solutions we come up with.

First lets place a uniformed armed guard at the entrance to a church. Now assume no one else in the church has a weapon. If I’m a person intent on killing in a church what do I do? I ambush the threat (the guard) first and then enter freely to kill away. I know there are no more threats in the church because concealed weapons are not allowed. This is what happened in Kirkwood. Thornton eliminated the threats (uniformed police) and then went merrily upon his killing spree. Remember, concealed weapons are not allowed in a government buildings.

Now let’s remove the uniformed guard from the church door and place him in plain clothes in the congregation and the same situation. Now the tables are turned on the killer. They don’t know where, if any, resistance will come from. Say they decide to shoot, it’s possible they’ll kill some people but more then likely the plain clothes guard will end up killing the killer.

Now assume the common parishioner who has a CCW license is allowed in the congregation. You can assume any number of CCWs at this point. A properly trained and licensed CCW holder who has the ability, and the will to follow thru and kill, can quickly turn the tables on the killer.

This pastor is doing nothing more than improving the odds in the favor of good, rather than evil. If you did grow up with guns around you know that gun owners are some of the most responsible people around. We’ve never had an OK Corral shootout started by someone with a CCW.

You can say we should set aside our “earthly defenses, physical and psychological, and give our whole selves over to God” all you want but it only takes one person, with the right set of circumstances in their favor to commit evil. Dead is dead. Sitting next to someone who MAY be carrying weapon will not get you killed.

I don’t see how someone could look at this situation logically and not come up with the same conclusions.

“And I believe that the government can and should put some limits on what kind of guns can be owned by individuals, including on where, when, how and by whom they can be purchased, and especially on how and where they can be carried and used”

All of those are being done, what is your point?

As far as concealed weapons in church; concealed means concealed. Dont advertise, dont flaunt, dont talk about it. Just assume that everyone is carrying a weapon, just like you are.

Si Vis, her POINT, in case you missed it, is that the idea of having a “firearm day” in a house of worship seems to be a huge contradiction in terms for many people. Further, she was attempting to portray herself as anything BUT an “anti gun zealot”.

The idea that serious, proclaiming Christians, are celebrating a “second amendment day” in CHURCH is the problem. The church is many things, but it is not a place (my opinion) to celebrate the use or potential use of violence in the name of safety.

At no time in any of this was there a call for a law forbidding guns in church. Far from it, this is a call for questioning the religious impulse to, as a previous commenter put it, turning firearms and the second amendment into a form of idolatry.

Faithful,

I could not have put those thoughts in better words. This is disheartening to say the least. It just seem so difficult no, finding a church who truly seems to even desire to worship in spirit and in truth.

We are going through some very difficult times in society but even more so within the Churches to the point that most are not even equipped to be your refuge today to get away from all the craziness in the world because there seems to be as much craziness there than anywhere else today

Whenever I feel discouraged by what I witness going on within the Church I go read, review and just let the report to the seven Churches in the Book of Revelations, Chapters 1-3 penetrate my total being because by the time I think to do this I have usually gotten all worked up and disgusted and should have picked up the Bible and read it before I felt so discouraged in people and my Church. It never fails to show and teach me that I MUST NOT follow the practices of those under no conditions within my Church that are not in keeping with God’s Word. And, most importantly, know that God is looking and sees those things that are being done in His Church. I have learned a great lesson in how we human beings need these little reminders very often because we soon forget. Nothing has changed in humanity about that fact.

Those chapters in Revelations remind me that I must not allow what others in the Church do even if those acts and behaviors very wicked or immoral even, if they are committed by the leaders of the Church to cause me to lose my faith and discontinue my worship of God in spirit and in truth as has been written. It would be nice if Churches or us as Christians for that had everything right but Churches are greatly flawed just as we worshippers are because we are what make up the Church, and it is just that some of us have flaws than others. But, that is not, nor am I stating that it is an excuse to keep us from continuously growing more and more into perfection. When you see error such as this within your Church, you must pray then bring it before your Church. If they do not turn away from their error right away don’t worry about it and leave it to God and trust Him to do it within His own timing and time-lines.

I forget much of this myself many times until after I have already stressed myself out to almost insanity getting bent out of shape and reacting incorrectly to things and situations then remover things and not going about things as we have been instructed.

This minister is inviting the spirit of fear and is teaching His Church body to not trust in the Lord. The worst part is I do not think that he even have genuine fear and is using fear to justify another cause that he is promoting within his Church outside things that concern God an is extremely disingenuous and is shameful.

When we see leaders of Churches who are in error, we must pray for that Church and their members just as we must pray for one another.

The problem with most Americans today is that they wrongly equate guns to violence instead of freedom. Everytime you utter a denouncement of guns, replace the word “guns” with “speech” and think about how ignorant your comment is.

All of the chicken littles in Missouri before concealed carry was passed said we’d be living in the Wild West by now. Wrong! The same groundless concerns were raised about the “castle” law. Thank GOD (and a few Republicans) Missourians are not living in the dark ages anymore, like our neighbor to the east.

Statistics prove unrefutably that more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens does NOT equal more violence. Therefore, why is bringing guns to church, or anywhere else for that matter, a bad idea?

I am all about worship and a huge supporter of the 2nd Amendment. But Pastor Ken’s idea is - - -How do I put it?- - - -Well, just odd. It’s sort of like the pastor of a more liberal denomination asking his congregation to bring condoms to church. I guess I’ll leave it at that.

For thousands of years, both in common law and in practice, weapons have been forbidden in houses of worship. The USE of a weapon in a house of worship was cause for immediate excommunication, and an act of murder in the sanctuary was seen as the greatest sacrilege that could be committed.

This pattern applies across all religious traditions and across all cultures. (Which is why, for example, the Taliban’s destruction of the giant Buddhas a few years ago was such a terrible thing)

The very idea that a Minister of the Gospel would encourage something of this nature makes my skin crawl, and makes me fear for him and for his congregation. Call it what you like, idolatry, lack of faith, giving in to fear, or whatever. The very act of doing this kind of thing flies in the face of thousands of years of religious teaching and practice.