I’m going to be a grouch for a minute and suggest that this item would be better posted on the politics blog than the religion blog. It is primarily a call to vote Republican due to abortion politics. I see no religious message or discussion in this.

Wrong, this is a religious question. Politics should stay out of this.

hs

Politics is within religion and religion is in politics, according to the following Wikipedia definitions:

1. “Politics is the process by which groups of people make decisions. The term is generally applied to behavior within civil governments, but politics has been observed in all human group interactions, including corporate, academic, and religious institutions.”

2. “The term “religion” refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.”

It seems to me the celebrated Barak Obama, who has been called the Messiah - see http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/ - has, by his very nature, injected religion into politics. The Obama clash with his former pastor, Rev. Wright, shows politics gets into religion.

Since both politics and religion involve “groups of people” but abortion is a “personal practice”, Sherry’s presentation fits the category of religion better than politics.

hs,

Abortion is a moral issue. Religion is all about morals. Remember the “Thou shalt not kill” commandment? Abortion clearly violates that commandment and it is completely expected that a religious blog would post strong entries about this topic.

Barack’s position on this is completely extreme, yet you will hear many claim that it is a populace position. A baby survives an abortion, and he would support finishing the kid off after being born? That’s murder in everyone’s book except his.

Allow me to be clear: I think one of the biggest struggles in the country today is the pandering of the political parties for the religious vote, and the willingness of religious leaders to endorse party politics of either side. Neither major political party has a corner on “Christian” morality or thought.

I agree, abortion is a moral issue. It will not be decided by or eliminated by law. Nor will it be encouraged by law. I have yet to see a serious abortion opponent specify what the penalties for performing or having an abortion would be under a law banning the practice.

On the face of it, yes, this story seems to be exposing some reprehensible thinking and lawmaking. I’d really be interested in what ‘the rest of the story is’. That is the problem with this issue. Both sides do their very best to use the most loaded language to make their opponent look either uncaring, evil, or stupid. The TRUTH is always somewhere else.

I just tend to think that GOD’s priority for us is not tied up in our opinions about Abortion. I have the feeling that there is a whole lot more that is required of us.

I reiterate: A particular political position taken by a candidate for high office is a political question. It is NOT primarily a religious one.

I have to agree with hs on this. This is a political topic because it comes from a political party and a presidential candidate. We are not talking about the morality of abortion, we are talking about the stance of a party and their candidate. Davel is right that these two topics (religion and politics) often cross paths, but that doesn’t mean that they fall if both areas with equal weight.

Abortion sickens me, just for the record.

This blog is almost a letter to the editor, and doesn’t belong here.

Gentlemen,
While you’ve been disagreeing about this story being political or religious, the Obama camp has been responding to the NRLC charges. After you read the Obama Campaign statement below, go back to the link in the original St. Louis Post-Dispatch post, the link that compares the wording in the two bills. Read carefully. This story is not over:

Barack Obama’s Campaign Responds to Charge He Lied About Abortion
Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) — The campaign of pro-abortion presidential candidate Barack Obama has responded to charges that he misrepresented his views on an abortion bill that protected babies who survive abortions.

The Obama camp essentially repeated the claims that Obama opposed the bill for legitimate reasons.

New documents released by the National Right to Life Committee from the Illinois legislature show the same language found in the federal bill was added as an amendment to the Illinois legislation and that Obama voted for it but ultimately voted down the anti-infanticide bill.

The Obama camp responded to the charges saying, “In recent days the right wing blogosphere and rumor mongers have falsely accused Senator Obama of misrepresenting his position on ‘Born Alive’ legislation.”

“The state and federal born alive infant protection acts did not include exactly the same language,” Obama’s camp claimed and it complained the Illinois bill said “a live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law.”

However, Douglas Johnson, the legislative director for National Right to Life, says Obama’s campaign is still misrepresenting the truth.

“It is rather astonishing that, in light of the new documents that came to light this week, the Obama campaign here continues to brazenly misrepresent the content of the state Born-Alive Infants Protection Act that Obama killed in 2003,” he told LifeNews.com. Full story at LifeNews.com.

And, Sherry, while you’ve probably been trying to get this piece of right-wing character assassination in every publication you can, there are those who would prefer that the election be based on issues, not propaganda. The moderators of this blog have a responsibility to keep it on subject, which is religion, not politics. It doesn’t matter if the hate letters are aimed at Obama or McCain, they are still hate letters. Yeah, we get it, Obama is the anti-Christ, a baby killer, a secret Muslim terrorist, an elitist, etc., etc. Keep it on the political blogs.

So far as I can tell, Sen. Obama is a pathelogical liar and a very devious person. If he supports infanticide then so be it. Come out and say it.
If that is his position, so be it. I am sure there are many in his base that support it also. Why does he always have to nuance everything? Seriously, does any body even know where he stands on anything anymore? His positions are getting murkier and murkeir by the day.

hs,

Abortion is a moral issue that can be eliminated by law just like other immoral behavior (murder, robbery, rape) are. On this issue, one political party clearly supports a Catholic’s view of the issue. To say that a religious writer can not post a political view is ridiculous.

This serious abortion opponent can think of a punishment that is a similar type of offense: use the sentencing guidelines for killing a human: murder, manslaughter, self defense, …

Now you’ll probably counter with some exceptional circumstances, which we can debate all you want. However, you cannot deny that this is a valid religious and political issue.

Mr. Obama’s stance on this particular issue is disgusting and is completely valid to use when evaluating him for the highest political office. If he has such a disregard for human life at it’s most innocent and vulnerable time, then how will he rule the land when 300 million lives are at stake?

This discussion is on the wrong page. The topic is not religious , it is Obama and that is a different page. Note blog title: Civil Religion ;This is a lame attempt at campaigning. Sad

Ms Tyree -
You have made your stance clear, as has Archbishop Burke. Pardon those of us who are not RCCA members if we want to choose our own fates without the input of either.

At best I see your attempt here yet more of the tired conservative RCCA longing for the “good old days” prior to Vatican 2.

Right-wing bottom feeders have been pushing the “Obama is a baby killer” theme for weeks now. It appears that Sherry Tyree is just another propagandist for the radical right. This kind of drivel does not belong on this blog. It is neither civil nor is it religion. The moderators of this blog should get control of it before it becomes just one more political mud slinging site. This kind of hate mongering should not be used against Obama or McCain. Only people who are too stupid to understand the issues rely on character assassination.

Barack Obama & aborted babies left to die…

The accusation is an outright lie that Ms. Sherry Tyree has fallen prey to.
This is an intentional lie that started with those who refer to them selves as the “Conservative Right”. Religious people have fallen for it.

Religious people is what is the problem with Christianity because it takes being spirit filled in order to posess the wisdom it takes to not fall victim to such lies as the ones that Republican pundits love throwing out there.

Furthermore,

Obama does not deny supporting abortions within the womb.

The wording in the bill is trickery just as “Missouri’s Mid-wife Bill.”

Furthermore the clause of the bill you are overlooking is the wording that can and will be used to deny abortions at any stage. I have capped for your attention and notice.

“nothing in this section shall be construed to DENY any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point PRIOR TO BEING ‘BORN ALIVE’ as defined in this section.”

EXACT WORDING AS IN THE BILL BELOW: Item C

(The “neutrality” clause read, “Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being ‘born alive’ as defined in this section.”)

Only a person lacking intellect would not be able to see that the very claus could cause all abortions to be illegal, kind of like the midwife situation that we had here in Missouri.

http://nrlc.org/ObamaBAIPA/2003AmendedILBAIPAandFedBAIPA.html

Ms Tyree writes “Gone is the “safe, legal and rare” rhetoric of the past few years and in is this”
Why is it gone? I think you will find that Obama and the Democratic Party in general still supports solid sex education and access to birth control—both items that go a long, long way in making abortion “safe, legal and rare”.

Ms Tyree, as usual, has gone beyond the provocative, civil thought that was the reason behind the finding of this blog and prints hacked, cherry picked quotes and surrounds it with extremely slanted words and rhetoric.

I will sit and wait for Ms Tyree’s takes on both candidates views on the death penalty.

suzyjax — so you would consider over 1 million abortions a year a rarity?

Regarding the death penalty, there is one difference. First, there are very few death sentences executed per year. Second, these are people who are guilty of heinous crimes. I don’t think you can bring this issue up since you support the killing of 1 million innocent lives a year.

D. Walker, you are really reaching here. You are twisting that language to mean something that it is not. That clause simply is stating that the coverage of the law is only when the baby has left the mother and that by not addressing the baby’s rights prior to the time, it is not implicitly forfeiting those rights.

What is your position on this proposed legislation? Would you have voted with Obama?

Why is this editorial on this page?!

Can we convert this all into a prayer: Please God, don’t allow all the extremely important decisions facing our country this November be reduced to an artificilly delineated “pro-life/pro-abortion” discussion!

As a pro-life Democrat(opposed not only to abortion, but to the death penalty, and as someone who believes that “true” pro-life persons work just as hard to take care of small people born into poverty..), I was sickened by all the hateful, oversimplified, and often ignorant “discussions” that characterized the last national election.

Again, please God, don’t let this happen again!

leahk, It is good that you are a pro-life Democrat, but I question your commitment to that view if think it is such a trivial issue for this and any election. Somehow, I think you are not all that truthful about your beliefs since you wrangled the death penalty into this discussion.

This could be a reasonable discussion if the folks on the left actually set aside their radical views. No other issue being considered this November has affected as many American lives as abortion. One million babies are killed each year. These are kids that don’t even get a chance. Abortion as birth control is a sickening practice and your party supports it. You really need to reconsider your party choice.

Think,

Far reaching, NOT AT ALL! It is what the law considers a LOOPHOLE that I think personally was placed there in an attempt to deceive.

We are talking about LAWMAKERS here and I don’t care what they are claiming to be, the ones who concocted the bill), Christian, Atheist, Pro-Life or, whatever, they claim to be, the wording is DECEITFUL!

In law, wording is everything and a few unintended words, deceitful wording or whatever can change the entire intent of what was intended in a bill or new law and, in this particular situation, I think the wording is INTENTIONAL DECEIT, if you were to ask me my opinion personally.

Also think,

I would vote against anything that I saw was being presented using deceit and trickery and the possibility of untended consequences.

Now, personally, I would never hold an office due to my religious beliefs, there would be too many things that conflict with my religion, including WAR, DEATH PENALTY, and a whole hoist of other moral issues due to where I am at in my spiritual walk with Christ. I feel as a Christian I must be free to do things how I am guided by God to do, not man, and this is not the way I have always felt, but is what I have grown to know is right for me and any mature Christian.

Where politics are a concern, I think that Christian’s roles and duties are to do whatever is necessary within the confines of ways that are approved by God, to make certain that our rights are protected to practice our faith as written in scripture. I do know without any doubt that Christians should not attempt to control the actions of non-Christians and non-believers or force anyone to behave as Christians. Again where politics are concerned we must fight to practice our faith as written.

Pro-Lifers are missing the boat entirely. I am with Pastor Warren when he states that he considers himself WHOLE-LIFE, life and concern for ALL human life from birth to death, no matter one’s age or sins.

D. Walker,

You are not “whole-life” when you support the ending of millions of human lives a year. You are not “whole-life” when you fanatically attack the wording of legislation instead of addressing the actual life-saving intent of the legislation. The number of US babies killed by abortion exceeds all US lives taken in all US wars and all US executions for the entire existence of the US. Pastor Warren does not support abortion, but you do. Go ahead and keep the blinders on. Go ahead and fight to keep mass murderers off death row. Let the bodies of those babies keep piling up behind you.

So you don’t think Christian values should be in legislation. I’m guessing then that you would support removing from the books all laws tied to the commandments. Rape, murder, incest, theft would all be OK with you it seems. That type of view does not seem to be one of a mature Christian. It seems you are trying to blind us with your apparent faithfulness when in reality you are much more faithful to the Democratic party than the teachings of Christ.

Think,

As a Christian, I do not support abortions. Before I became a practicing Christian I supported abortions. My point is I do not believe, just as Christ did not believe in forcing His beliefs upon another. I will always speak to people about the Gospel of Christ, but if they reject it, that’s their godly choice.

As a Christian today, which I have not always lived as or been, and I praise Jesus for calling me out of the world. I today as a Christian would not find myself in situations that could lead to an unwanted pregnancy.

I walk with Christ each and everyday and do not even see rape as a possibility in my life because I know Christ is with me wherever I am.

My point here is that not all are Christians and believers and, we can’t legislate everything according to what Christians believe in this country. Our Constitution respect the right for one to practice any and all religions in this country. Some religions such as Jewish religions support limited abortions.

I have no doubt that ALL babies are heaven bound upon death, being preserved in heaven with God for God’s Kingdom to come. No one can find anything in scripture to support this same thing for a life of a man’s or woman’s life without having lived a life that was for God first and beyond everything else. If you or anyone else out there can find anywhere in scripture that you have the right to condemn a man or woman to Hell, then back it up for me, and SHOW ME and everyone this scripturally.

Now also take into consideration God’s truth that only He can call someone out of the world to Him. Things take place in God’s timing not ours or how we think they should. How do you know God’s timing for calling that murderer to Him and that God’s timing has not come? Maybe that murderer had not been called by God YET and, you think that you or any man or woman has the right to interfere in God’s timing for anything?

You totally miss the most important thing in life, we were made to serve God not ourselves self and, our prize for this is the Kingdom of God. The hope for sinners to turn their life around to understand this and coming to repentance was the reason for Christ, this gift is even extended to the murderer with the goal for all who accept this gift from God to make it into “The Kingdom of God” the new earth to come. This is what it is all about according to Christ.

By the way, Think, I am a Independent and let me just state clearly so that you don’t miss understand this next statement from me.

If you or anyone thinks that being a Republican over a Democrat determines one’s holiness then you have been blinded by Satan because common sense without the Holy Spirit operating within to give one wisdom into hidden things, proves such a notion to be clearly non-sense. One who thinks otherwise would certainly seem to must be blinded by Satan.

idontreadorthink wrote “suzyjax — so you would consider over 1 million abortions a year a rarity?”

Well, IF you would actually have read my post you would note that I said such a plan included comprehensive sex education and access to birth control. We have neither of these, thus we have the one million statistic you quoted (without attribution). Perhaps if people like Ms Tyree would also quit fighting things like comprehensive sex ed and bc access then we truly could make abortion rare. In the meantime, keep it safe and legal.

suzy,

We’ve had sex education in our public schools for decades and look where we’re at with the abortion rate. Your safe, legal, readily available stance on abortion is the reason why the rates are so high. You accuse me of not thinking, when it is you and your party that refuse to put any thought towards this problem. 1 in 5 pregnancies are aborted. Doesn’t that scare you? It has been turned into birth control instead of a measure of last resort.

Your side fights every reasonable measure. I’m a realist. I understand there are exceptional cases. I do see birth control as a good option. I do want there to be a place for women to work through an unwanted pregnancy and get the help they need. I just don’t think that going through a drive through baby blender is the best answer for them and definitely not for the child.

Oh please. Abstinence-only is NOT comprehensive sex education.
To teach in such a manner and then be shocked by the rates of unwanted pregnancies is akin to having your head in the sand and then being surprised that someone comes along and kicks you in the butt.

“Abortion is a moral issue that can be eliminated by law just like other immoral behavior (murder, robbery, rape) are. ”

So, did I miss the news story where we eliminated burglary, rape, and homicide?

Think,

I search my soul before every vote I cast.

That your choices appear to be so black and white must be comforting for you.

I am Whole-life, as others here are, and believe in the sanctity of human life, but I do not believe in the infallibilty of human judgment, nor the jurisdiction of one human to take the life of another. Feigning the authority to take human life with the death penalty is to offend God with perhaps the most outrageous and ancient of sins: hubris.

Furthermore, to say that someone who votes for a pro-choice Democrat is somehow betraying his or her beliefs is based on the assumption that that voter believes that the political/legal arena area are the places where these issues will be resolved.

Regardless of who is elected, abortion will be here to stay. Even if abortion were completely outlawed, abortions would exist, much less the underlying social conditions that are the backdrop for all the abortions in the world.

Without addressing the underlying social conditions (poverty, misogyny, inequities in the work force, educational disparities, etc.), I believe it is a waste of time to be campaigning against only the symptoms of these ills.

Just think what could be accomplished if all the militant fervor on both sides could be redirected into prayer for resolution of these problems and action to make the world a safer, happier place for women, their children, and the people who love them.

Not sure if your screen name implies you are the only one who “thinks” or not. If so, I can assure you, you are not.

Blessings.

Leah, thank you.

As far as it goes, I think there is plenty of error and sin to go around on both sides of this issue. There is a lot of healing required both within and without the church: and it needs to start inside the church.

The Pro-Lifers, in my opinion, are guilty of gross inconsistency, particularly those who marry their pro-life opinion with ultra-conservative party politics. To me, if you want to call yourself pro-life while you espouse lawmaking that leaves the poor, the widow, and the orphan to fend for themselves, then you haven’t read much of your Bible. Feeding the poor is as much of a pro-life issue as abortion is. Insuring affordable medical care to all is a pro-life issue. Actually being willing to face the very serious issues with the death penalty in the US is a pro-life issue. Daring to question the policies that imprison and potentially put to death 15 year old children is a pro-life issue.

The vehement Pro-Choicers are just as bad. To refuse to allow any limits on abortion is wrong. To seemingly forget that there are real people involved here is wrong. To act as if Abortion is just another method of birth control is wrong. It should be the last resort, not the first.

Bottom line: the lack of Christian Charity on both sides poisons the whole discussion. The willingness to demonize one’s opponents is totally contrary to what my Bible teaches me about how to respond to my fellows.

Amen,hs. Thank you.

My big question is, when will Christians truly began to believe God’s word concerning the world, the world system and people who are part of the world?

Why do so many Christians fail to recognize God’s truth of what can and cannot be changed? God tells us how to deal with every issue under the sun. The method that most who call themselves Pro-Lifer’s (Conservative Christians) have been going about the abortion issue concerning ones living in the world and not part of the church or accepting of God’s truth, I can’t seem to find scripture to support their behaviors and actions.

Maybe Mrs. Sherry Tyree can feature a post in this blog explaining how the actions of “Pro-Lifer’s” concerning abortions are supported by scripture concerning those in our world who do not know God or those who have rejected God, and don’t care to know Him.

suzy,

Today’s sex eduction is NOT abstinence only. In fact, it does not emphasize abstinence at all. Today’s sex education promotes sexual activity and presents abortion as a safe option just in case. It is that emphasis that leads to the appalling numbers that you are ignoring.

Leah,

It’s not a black and white issue. There’s plenty of gray area. However, there is one big black cloud that your side conveniently ignores. You see a dead baby as a symptom. I see it as a dead baby. Your side promotes knocking off a baby as a treatment of the “symptom” and everything then is a-OK.

You are right that abortion is here to stay, but it should be here to stay on an exceptional basis. You cannot call yourself “whole life” if you support the discretionary practice of killing babies as birth control. Stop throwing out the red herring of the death penalty. If you actually took time to think about the body counts between the two issues, you will actually see the ridiculousness of your statement.

I certainly do think about this issue — a lot more than you do. You are close-minded and have decided to look the other way when the most innocent of all of us is taken from this earth.

hs,

Your post makes a lot of sense. I agree with just about every point you made. Regarding the death penalty, if it were to be eliminated from the land, I would probably be OK with it. Do I feel bad about the most vile of us citizens prematurely meeting their end? No. Should we continue the practice when there are innocent people meeting that end? You’re right that we probably should not. Should we equate this issue with abortion and include it under the “pro-life” moniker? Absolutely not. They are two different issues. To group them together demeans the lives of those innocents that are lost.

We all need to be more involved to address the issues that lead up to the hideous elective abortion rates. I believe it is the Church’s responsibility to do this, not the government’s.

Think,

As Christians it is not about what we think, it is about bringing what we think into agreement with the way God think even though it is not naturally instinct for us to have the mind of God, (to see things as He has shown us of Himself through scripture).

My how hard do you think that it was for the followers of Christ to accept what God allowed to happen to Christ? We must bring ourselves into agreement with God because His plan is a perfect one, even the GRACE offered to murderers, and innocent babies and Children? I have no doubt that my loving Father above has them in good care.

Why do you people fret so much over these innocent children of God? Be more concerned about the matured life.

D. Walker, you are a nut. Go seek some help.

Think,

Please explain to me why you think that I am a nut and, since we are on the “Civil Religious” blog, show me how my views conflict with the teachings of Christ and scripture. Back up that I am as nut and that my way of seeing things are not following after the ways of Christ.

Now, if you cannot do that, them it can be clearly seen my myself and everyone that you follow after the ways of the devil and certainly not Christ and that is a very sad state to be in.

Try NOT spewing your own thoughts and show us how any of your thoughts are in agreement with Christ and how mind isn’t concerning those outside of God’s family.

Now I am waiting for your response to my questions.

Also Think,

The only thing that you need is to read and study the actual HOLY SCRIPTURES as the Holy Spirit leads you, not MAN because they are fallible.

One last thing,

Christians must be on guard at all times of people like Think.

Those who called themselves Christians with his mind-set were of the same type responsible for the atrocities of the Charlemagne, the Spanish Inquisitions, the Salem witch trials, and other deeds performed in the name of Christ. These type people are following after evil and wicked spirits and anti-Christ terachings and are blind to it.

To THINK and D. Walker:
Religion blogs have been known to close down entirely when comments become personal, rude, vulgar, ad hominem, etc.
So cut it out, esp. you, THINK, who have otherwise shown a good deal of common sense and reason on this particular post. I have appreciated your input and support. Please get back to your usual offerings of reasoning and information.

Ms. Tyree,

My apologies. I let me emotion get the best of me.

Think,

I am still awaiting your answers to my questions if you are able to get your emotions under control and be balanced and measured. If you are incapable I will just move on for now.

Wow, did this blog ever take off since I posted August 15th. See what happens hs when I agree with you?

Yep, Tim I noticed.

This comment is for Sheree: I would also suggest that a religion blog can rapidly fall apart when it turns into a partisan political blogspace.

I would suggest that both major political parties in the US have some positions that are arguably Christian, and other positions that are definitely NOT Christian. The debate over what would constitute Christian Law-making will probably never be resolved, because so much of how one would define that depends on how we interpret Scripture..and we all know how much of the divisions within the Church revolve around what seem like really, really minor disagreements about scripture.

For example, to move away from Abortion politics for a moment…

I see much to be respected in the Conservative viewpoint about individual responsibility and wanting to move away from the “nanny state”. However, I don’t see a lot of political capital being spent on telling those at the “have” side of the monetary spectrum to use their wealth responsibly from a Christian standpoint. “Sell all you have and give to the poor and then come follow me” is not a terribly popular message these days, is it? In my white, middle class life, I don’t know if I’ve EVER heard a sermon preached on that verse, for that matter. In fact, one could take that text as a strong Biblical injunction in favor of a truly progressive tax system complete with punitive taxes at the high end. Pretty socialist, isn’t it?

D. Walker,

You refuse to listen to reason, so I am not going to bother trying to interpret your jibber jabber. It is a little funny that the only time your posts sound like they came from a normal person is when you are begging to be noticed.

I’m going to pay attention to hs, since he makes a lot of sense and sees things from other perspectives…

hs,

You are correct about conservatives generally want the government less involved in our individual lives. There obviously is a role for government to protect us and provide a core set of laws that establish a solid foundation for a civil society. The Libertarians will take personal responsibility to an extreme and actually would end up more on the pro-choice side of the fence in many cases.

It is a fuzzy line between what a government should enforce that also is in our moral fabric as believers in God. A good measure of what should be law and what should be a personal virtue is this: if a person’s action causes direct harm to another, there should be legislation around that action.

Charity is more of a goal for all of us. We are a very charitable nation, and we should always look to give more. Do we need the government to be the charity? No, because government will mess it up. Welfare, Social Security, Medicare are all prime examples of this type of program gone wrong. We need to give more. Everyone. From rich to poor, we need to treat each other with respect and help the other person out who needs it. Do we need the government to tell us this? No. Could the government encourage more religious and charitable involvement? Yes, but then the ACLU will cry foul.

It’s up to us. We must lead by example and show others how to do it. This goes from charity, to conserving energy, to helping fight crime. We are a selfish nation that needs to think less about what the government can give us and more about what you can offer to others. This is where John F. Kennedy’s famous speech should be played over and over.

To close the loop, this is also where we can help tackle the unwanted pregnancy rate and stop the waste of life from abortion.

Think,

Begging to be noticed? Not at all Think.

I only want you to answer the questions that I posed to you like an honorable human being but, that you have proved is asking way too much of you, very sad indeed.

Are you even capable of giving an answer that makes sense according to even worldly standards, how about spiritual or scripturally which I am really seeking from you?

Can you support that what you believe is right and what I believe is wrong. Its just that simple, not complicated at all. If you feel so strongly and are so sure that I am wrong then certainly you should be able to show everyone including myself why.

Why is it that we have Christians so divided and when some Christians such as yourself don’t agree with Christians like myself to those like you, instead of supporting what you believe with truth you resort to name calling?

This type attitude that you are displaying, the mind-set and heart are very dangerous state for a Christian to live in while claiming to be defending the ways of Christ and religion. It is wear the seed is planted that has been associated with every kind of evil in the name of God, Christ and religion, even the murder of abortion doctors that some Pro-Lifer’s are and have been found guilty of.

When will you learn that you cannot and must get it out of your head that you cannot FORCE anyone to behave and believe in what you, me or, anyone believes.

Think, some religions and even some Christians support limited abortions while in the womb before birth and do not believe life begins until after living outside the mothers womb after receiving God’s breath of life and, does not believe that this occurs until after a child has lived outside the womb and without dependency on the mothers womb.

No matter how much you or anyone else disagrees with this, what do you want to do, kill ones who believe this or condemn them to HELL following not after Christ but your own fleshly mind? Name call and hate ones that don’t agree with you? Instead of taking on character that is not associated with Christ or scripture, show us that you are right and that all others who do not follow after your train of thought are wrong. If you are right and can show this maybe you will change some hearts, maybe not immediately, maybe it will be only the planting of little seeds that will not germinate until sometime later. This is how hearts and minds are changed, not by resorting to name calling irrationally. Why can’t you understand this simple truth? I know why, why don’t you do some soul searching and find out why you react and behave as you do. Lastly, I am assuming that you are a Christian, I don’t know, are you?

dwalker:

Why focus on mature life over that of the innocent unborn? That’s illogical, if life is life.

If you don’t accept a fetus as alive, you have science to contend with.

“.. do not believe life begins until after living outside the mothers womb after receiving God’s breath of life”

I don’t care what they “believe” about fetal life, this is about truth. Truth can be supported by evidence. The truth is that a fetus is alive, is as alive as you, and does not deserve death. The right to live is not granted by the government, it is granted by God, and acknowledged by the government.

So your theology is to live and let die, live and let kill, just do your thing and let God take care of everything else? That is horribly flawed. Sure, God is taking care of aborted fetuses, that doesn’t mean we aren’t called to stand up for their lives.

Your attempt to align your view with the views of Christ are illegitimate. Protecting the weak, innocent, and unprotected is readily aligned with Jesus’ teachings.

To sum up the entire TRUTH that I am attempting to get across reagardless of where any one of us stand on this issue is:

Most Conservatives (fundamentalists) contrive a version of Christianity based on control, domination and submission, because they are obsessed with control due to their addiction to power. We can only control what we do morally, not others. We were left with instructions by Christ the work that Christians are to contend themselves with. It was to go out into the world spread the news of the Kingdom of God so that hearts could be changed. In the days of Christ for God’s sake, woman sacrificed their children and never did we see an example in scripture of Christ attempting to force through government morality. Christ’s theology is based on learning and understanding.

D Walker, what conservatives are you talking about? Conservatives in the general population are usually for less governmental power, more personal freedon (AND responsibility), and the right to succeed without being punished for it.

You apparently are talking about POLITICIANS. In case you didn’t know or notice, all of them are power hungry. Those are the only conservatives I know that fit your narrow definition.

Not counting the few fringe nutjobs that invade all of the various political spectrums, conservative religious types are not oppressive, dominating, or any other description that you can come up with.

More to D Walker: The more I read your posts the more I am amazed. You said: “Why do you people fret so much over these innocent children of God?” How can you call yourself a Christian???

You also wrote: ” I do know without any doubt that Christians should not attempt to control the actions of non-Christians and non-believers or force anyone to behave as Christians. Again where politics are concerned we must fight to practice our faith as written.” Using your logic, Christians should not try to stop genocide…THAT makes a lot of sense.

I can argue against abortion in biological terms, Constitutional terms, or religious terms. Take your pick.

Sorry hs, I agree this doesn’t belong here but I got sucked in anyway. By the way, abortion should not be the “last resort”…it should never be an option at all.

dwalker:

1. Who condemned anybody to Hell? You’re posts are the only ones with the word in them. You are being dishonest with this.

2. Would you be concerned if a law was passed legalizing rape in America? Murder? Child molestation? If so, when will you realize that you can’t force people to be like you? Why do you think you can solve these problems by passing laws? It’s in God’s hands, so just sit back, share the gospel and smile while death, destruction and evil abound…I hope I sound like an idiot. This is a direct extension of your nonsenical thinking.

You see, you want to believe that you can believe something, and not let that set your values - the things that should be guiding what you do and how you vote. It’s nonsense. It seems like you’ve perverted your concept of Christianity to fit your political views. You’ve twisted it around your desire to support people whose stances are indefensible by Biblical standards. You claim to be anti war. Why? From your morality drawn from Christianity? Then by your standards you should leave that all behind when you vote…but you won’t…and you rightfully shouldn’t.

Your inconsistencies are astounding

Tim and Mike,

How does one stop genecide from talking place, it is a heart problem that will never disappear from the earth.

Mike,the question that you pose to me asking if I would be concerned if a law was passed legalizing rape in America? Murder? Is ridiculous because everyone regardless of if they are Christian, atheist, Jew or Muslim heart convicts them in their hearts that these acts are wrong.

I am saying that yes abortions are immoral and wrong, but because I know that these babies are in a better place, I feel that the concern should be more for the woman’s soul and condition.

I see no reason here to continue to explain myself here, it’s right there in writing, my view as I feel that I am being lead to see this issue. You don’t agree? That’s your right. You feel that most Pro-Lifer’s are in error and most are hypocrites concerning their concern for other people’s children. Now must I go any further about how the religious truly do not place the welfare of children first, including areas of rape? Now let’s not pretend to be so falsely holy here.

I wish that abortions had never been made legal to be honest. But, the world is under the control of Satan and you are wasting your time and spinning your wheels if you think the answer to sin in our world is to legislate it out. My hope is for woman who turn to abortions because of their lifestyle to have a true change of heart, and no one’s heart is being changed by people like you who want to force people to live moral when they don’t understand where the heck you are coming from and frankly, don’t like what they see in people like you and most Conservative Christians who manipulate, distort, outright lie to try to cause change when Christ have given us His directions.

What good is a woman who keeps her child and raise it apart from God because she does not know Him? There’s a high chance that neither will ever know God, and one of the reasons are because of those Christian Pro-Lifer’s who are neglecting them and not bring them that good news Christ instructed that you take out into the world.

As far as me voting my conscience, I am, but does my choice make me wrong because you and those “Pro-Lifer’s” disagree with my choice of Obama? I can tell you I see more goodness in Obama than McCain on any day of the week.

Vote my conscience? I am going to do that as God leads me, not you and those like you who refer to yourselves as “Pro-Lifer’s.”

By the way, the church should begin looking realistically at its own conscience and judgments concerning children already here on this earth because the church has been in much error for decades concerning the protection and lives of children who were alive and well until their life was ruined due to evil within the church. My desire more than anything else in this world is to worship God in spirit and in truth. I don’t believe that anyone who has the stupidity to attach a title to them as “Pro-Life” is worshipping God in spirit and truth. And where does this leave us? I guess in disagreement with one another. That’s find, just don’t attempt by FORCE to make me or anyone believe or behave as you do, and we can all live in this world peacefully until Christ returns where my hope is that we all will be enlightened even more into the ways and mysteries of God. Then we will learn what we had right and wrong.

A Centrist
Here is a religous questions for you.(and others who religously judge others)

Is drinking alcohol a sin? Has drinking ruined many lives? Can someone claim to be a Christian and be okay with their wife owning a liquor distribution company? Does God look at the sin of drinking the same as the sin of abortion? Do you normally question an individuals claim to be a Christian or just Obamas? and Wouldn’t you agree that only God knows the heart and someones profession of faith is a personal thing between them and God?

D,

You do a nice job of fitting your moral code into your political beliefs. Life is God’s greatest gift to us. Without that gift nothing else he has done for us would matter because we wouldn’t be here to enjoy it. I don’t care if there is a “high chance” that they won’t know God, it is better than no chance at all. Primitive tribes in the Amazon have almost no chance to know him either, but yet aren’t they of his hand as well?

You admit we are called to bring the word of Christ to others, yet you say we waste our time and spin our wheels trying to pass laws? You admit that we should carry God’s message but you want to sit on the sidelines until Jesus returns?

You cut a sad hypocritical figure D. Hoping that right will prevail isn’t good enough. Sometimes you have to get out in the trenches and help make it happen. Pro-Life is not just a religious stance, it is a biological and the Constitutional one. Until you see that forest for the trees you won’t even comprehend what you are arguing against.

Tim,

I never said passing laws were a waste of time, do you realized that you have twisted my words?

LIFE, Tim, do you really know what LIFE is from the spiritual sense, meaning God’s eyes? It is the hope for ALL to receive ENTERNAL LIFE, that’s the life that matters to God, not the one you are so short sighted concerning.

Do you even know what DEATH really is in the spiritual sense? It is Hell, quite frankly.

It appears that you believe that aborted babies go to HELL?

I guess this is where the promblem is, because I am sure that they DO NOT and, is why I feel that the concern should be more with the mothers soul being saved because her aborted child’s soul is, but hers may be in danger.

Tim, you do twist ones words, it reminds me of someone else in scripture that all Christians should be familiar with because you have distorted what I said that I believe.

I never said that we should sit on the side-lines until Jesus returns. I said that Pro-Lifer’s are going about the work of God and Christ instructions in the wrong way, much error in how they conduct themselves with the pro-life movement to ban abortions.

Do you even believe scripture when it tells us that Satan is ruler of this world and is where his throne is?

The way you guys behave on this issue and most other issues, it is hard to see that you believe this. The very ones who need to hear about the Kinghdom of God don’t hear it because you ones are so busy talking about things that Christ never told you to speak about in order to save souls, you just run these away from ever wanting to hear about the “Kingdom of God” to come. In fact, most after seeing how you behave and think assume they don’t want to be in God’s Kingdom if they resemble people like what they see in “pro-lifers”.

coopstlou,

To answer your questions, in order.

1. No

2. Yes

3. Tough question. No real right or wrong here. It would be tough for me to be in that type of a position. That’s okay. I would say that the scriptural guideline that if it makes you stumble in your walk with God, or if it makes others around you stumble it may be best to avoid it. But, this is not an absolute standard and can be widely different from person to person.

4. Drinking in and of itself is not a sin. There are plenty of sins that can revolve around drinking. While all sin makes us worthy of hell God does not necessarily “look” at all sin as being “equal.” This is a complex topic, but suffice it to say that there is scriptural evidence that God sees certain sins as particularly aggregious compared to others. Sins involving taking others life are generally in that category.

5. I don’t get into publicly quesitoning anybody’s faith. I do believe that you can know a tree by the fruit it produces, and bad fruit comes from bad trees. I don’t so much care what people SAY they believe. I care what that means through their actions and stances they take.

6. Yes, only God knows anybody’s heart, but as i alluded to above, we are absolutely called to be discriminating with our leaders, and to hold what they say and do up to the standards of scripture, and let that be our guide.

I can smell some attempt at a trap with your line of questions, but I can’t see what it was or what you wanted to prove, but there’s a stab at it - from somebody who does not judge others religiously. Oh, and learn the difference between judging and discerning.

Tim,

One last thing, your statement:

“You cut a sad hypocritical figure D. Hoping that right will prevail isn’t good enough. Sometimes you have to get out in the trenches and help make it happen”.

This is exactly the mind-set that has caused GREAT EVILS IN THE NAME OF GOD AND CHRIST. Be careful and on guard from that one of darkness because this is the heart-set that lead churches and religious people of our past into much darkness and not light or life.

There are some things that another cannot make happen for others such as REPENTENCE, these type moral issues fall under the need of repentance before one’s heart will truly change and is something that only God can bring one to through His word that Christ instructed us all to go out into the world and preach. Why do you ones have such a hard time following His instructions prefering to follow your own mind?

Abortion does not lead the other human life to DEATH in the spiritual sense like other sins involving another human being. Only the humans performing the abortion and agreeing to the abortion (mother etc.) are in danger of DEATH in the spiritual sense and must come into repentance which no one else can do for another person or make it happen. Only God can do it and He told us the only thing that we could do to untie his hands to cause this to happen for many.

Again, when one takes the life of someone who has reached maturity we don’t know if that life has received God’s grace of forgiveness and salvation or what God’s plans were for that life in the area of salvation which is the ultimate prize, what this life on this present earth is all about.

We cannot know for sure if anyone including ourselves will be rewarded salvation, it is what I hope for and is why I desire more than anything else in this world to be obedient to His word and worship Him in spirit and in truth.

The fact that an aborted baby does not experience a “spiritual death” doesn’t make it any less horrific or any less wrong. No, I do not think these babies go to hell. How you even extrapolated that from my comments is beyond me…

As I just posted in the other blog, ending the scourge of abortion is not trying to legislate morality on the sinners who choose to have and perform the abortion, it is about protecting those who cannot protect themselves. The sinners will have to deal with God. No one is trying to keep them from sinning. What we want is to protect the innocent harmed from that sinning!

Apparently this whole time you’ve been under the misguided impression that this legislating morality! Typical liberal though. You spend more time worrying about the sinner and ignore the plight of the victim…

Tim,

You state:

<You spend more time worrying about the sinner and ignore the plight of <the victim…

Seriously, with all the sin and evil that was going on in the world even during the time of Christ, what was the reason for Christ and God’s greatest concern?

Wasn’t it for Sinners?

You see, it isn’t at all about how we see things, but it is ALL about agreeing with how God sees things.

Yes the concern is and should be for sinners, (all sinners), just as God saw and sees it. Do you think Christ died only for certain type of sinners only or all sinners no matter the type of sin committed?

Seeing things as God sees them and Christ certainly doesn’t mean that there is no care or concern for victims, there is much concern, but for all. And agin, no need to be concern for the aborted child because they are in the best care that will ever be possible, in the care of God for safe keeping until that time when they will have eternal life.