To sum up the entire TRUTH that I am attempting to get across reagardless of where any one of us stand on this issue is:

Most Conservatives (fundamentalists) contrive a version of Christianity based on control, domination and submission, because they are obsessed with control due to their addiction to power. We can only control what we do morally, not others. We were left with instructions by Christ the work that Christians are to contend themselves with. It was to go out into the world spread the news of the Kingdom of God so that hearts could be changed. In the days of Christ for God’s sake, woman sacrificed their children and never did we see an example in scripture of Christ attempting to force through government morality. Christ’s theology is based on learning and understanding.

D Walker, what conservatives are you talking about? Conservatives in the general population are usually for less governmental power, more personal freedon (AND responsibility), and the right to succeed without being punished for it.

You apparently are talking about POLITICIANS. In case you didn’t know or notice, all of them are power hungry. Those are the only conservatives I know that fit your narrow definition.

Not counting the few fringe nutjobs that invade all of the various political spectrums, conservative religious types are not oppressive, dominating, or any other description that you can come up with.

More to D Walker: The more I read your posts the more I am amazed. You said: “Why do you people fret so much over these innocent children of God?” How can you call yourself a Christian???

You also wrote: ” I do know without any doubt that Christians should not attempt to control the actions of non-Christians and non-believers or force anyone to behave as Christians. Again where politics are concerned we must fight to practice our faith as written.” Using your logic, Christians should not try to stop genocide…THAT makes a lot of sense.

I can argue against abortion in biological terms, Constitutional terms, or religious terms. Take your pick.

Sorry hs, I agree this doesn’t belong here but I got sucked in anyway. By the way, abortion should not be the “last resort”…it should never be an option at all.

dwalker:

1. Who condemned anybody to Hell? You’re posts are the only ones with the word in them. You are being dishonest with this.

2. Would you be concerned if a law was passed legalizing rape in America? Murder? Child molestation? If so, when will you realize that you can’t force people to be like you? Why do you think you can solve these problems by passing laws? It’s in God’s hands, so just sit back, share the gospel and smile while death, destruction and evil abound…I hope I sound like an idiot. This is a direct extension of your nonsenical thinking.

You see, you want to believe that you can believe something, and not let that set your values - the things that should be guiding what you do and how you vote. It’s nonsense. It seems like you’ve perverted your concept of Christianity to fit your political views. You’ve twisted it around your desire to support people whose stances are indefensible by Biblical standards. You claim to be anti war. Why? From your morality drawn from Christianity? Then by your standards you should leave that all behind when you vote…but you won’t…and you rightfully shouldn’t.

Your inconsistencies are astounding

Tim and Mike,

How does one stop genecide from talking place, it is a heart problem that will never disappear from the earth.

Mike,the question that you pose to me asking if I would be concerned if a law was passed legalizing rape in America? Murder? Is ridiculous because everyone regardless of if they are Christian, atheist, Jew or Muslim heart convicts them in their hearts that these acts are wrong.

I am saying that yes abortions are immoral and wrong, but because I know that these babies are in a better place, I feel that the concern should be more for the woman’s soul and condition.

I see no reason here to continue to explain myself here, it’s right there in writing, my view as I feel that I am being lead to see this issue. You don’t agree? That’s your right. You feel that most Pro-Lifer’s are in error and most are hypocrites concerning their concern for other people’s children. Now must I go any further about how the religious truly do not place the welfare of children first, including areas of rape? Now let’s not pretend to be so falsely holy here.

I wish that abortions had never been made legal to be honest. But, the world is under the control of Satan and you are wasting your time and spinning your wheels if you think the answer to sin in our world is to legislate it out. My hope is for woman who turn to abortions because of their lifestyle to have a true change of heart, and no one’s heart is being changed by people like you who want to force people to live moral when they don’t understand where the heck you are coming from and frankly, don’t like what they see in people like you and most Conservative Christians who manipulate, distort, outright lie to try to cause change when Christ have given us His directions.

What good is a woman who keeps her child and raise it apart from God because she does not know Him? There’s a high chance that neither will ever know God, and one of the reasons are because of those Christian Pro-Lifer’s who are neglecting them and not bring them that good news Christ instructed that you take out into the world.

As far as me voting my conscience, I am, but does my choice make me wrong because you and those “Pro-Lifer’s” disagree with my choice of Obama? I can tell you I see more goodness in Obama than McCain on any day of the week.

Vote my conscience? I am going to do that as God leads me, not you and those like you who refer to yourselves as “Pro-Lifer’s.”

By the way, the church should begin looking realistically at its own conscience and judgments concerning children already here on this earth because the church has been in much error for decades concerning the protection and lives of children who were alive and well until their life was ruined due to evil within the church. My desire more than anything else in this world is to worship God in spirit and in truth. I don’t believe that anyone who has the stupidity to attach a title to them as “Pro-Life” is worshipping God in spirit and truth. And where does this leave us? I guess in disagreement with one another. That’s find, just don’t attempt by FORCE to make me or anyone believe or behave as you do, and we can all live in this world peacefully until Christ returns where my hope is that we all will be enlightened even more into the ways and mysteries of God. Then we will learn what we had right and wrong.

A Centrist
Here is a religous questions for you.(and others who religously judge others)

Is drinking alcohol a sin? Has drinking ruined many lives? Can someone claim to be a Christian and be okay with their wife owning a liquor distribution company? Does God look at the sin of drinking the same as the sin of abortion? Do you normally question an individuals claim to be a Christian or just Obamas? and Wouldn’t you agree that only God knows the heart and someones profession of faith is a personal thing between them and God?

D,

You do a nice job of fitting your moral code into your political beliefs. Life is God’s greatest gift to us. Without that gift nothing else he has done for us would matter because we wouldn’t be here to enjoy it. I don’t care if there is a “high chance” that they won’t know God, it is better than no chance at all. Primitive tribes in the Amazon have almost no chance to know him either, but yet aren’t they of his hand as well?

You admit we are called to bring the word of Christ to others, yet you say we waste our time and spin our wheels trying to pass laws? You admit that we should carry God’s message but you want to sit on the sidelines until Jesus returns?

You cut a sad hypocritical figure D. Hoping that right will prevail isn’t good enough. Sometimes you have to get out in the trenches and help make it happen. Pro-Life is not just a religious stance, it is a biological and the Constitutional one. Until you see that forest for the trees you won’t even comprehend what you are arguing against.

Tim,

I never said passing laws were a waste of time, do you realized that you have twisted my words?

LIFE, Tim, do you really know what LIFE is from the spiritual sense, meaning God’s eyes? It is the hope for ALL to receive ENTERNAL LIFE, that’s the life that matters to God, not the one you are so short sighted concerning.

Do you even know what DEATH really is in the spiritual sense? It is Hell, quite frankly.

It appears that you believe that aborted babies go to HELL?

I guess this is where the promblem is, because I am sure that they DO NOT and, is why I feel that the concern should be more with the mothers soul being saved because her aborted child’s soul is, but hers may be in danger.

Tim, you do twist ones words, it reminds me of someone else in scripture that all Christians should be familiar with because you have distorted what I said that I believe.

I never said that we should sit on the side-lines until Jesus returns. I said that Pro-Lifer’s are going about the work of God and Christ instructions in the wrong way, much error in how they conduct themselves with the pro-life movement to ban abortions.

Do you even believe scripture when it tells us that Satan is ruler of this world and is where his throne is?

The way you guys behave on this issue and most other issues, it is hard to see that you believe this. The very ones who need to hear about the Kinghdom of God don’t hear it because you ones are so busy talking about things that Christ never told you to speak about in order to save souls, you just run these away from ever wanting to hear about the “Kingdom of God” to come. In fact, most after seeing how you behave and think assume they don’t want to be in God’s Kingdom if they resemble people like what they see in “pro-lifers”.

coopstlou,

To answer your questions, in order.

1. No

2. Yes

3. Tough question. No real right or wrong here. It would be tough for me to be in that type of a position. That’s okay. I would say that the scriptural guideline that if it makes you stumble in your walk with God, or if it makes others around you stumble it may be best to avoid it. But, this is not an absolute standard and can be widely different from person to person.

4. Drinking in and of itself is not a sin. There are plenty of sins that can revolve around drinking. While all sin makes us worthy of hell God does not necessarily “look” at all sin as being “equal.” This is a complex topic, but suffice it to say that there is scriptural evidence that God sees certain sins as particularly aggregious compared to others. Sins involving taking others life are generally in that category.

5. I don’t get into publicly quesitoning anybody’s faith. I do believe that you can know a tree by the fruit it produces, and bad fruit comes from bad trees. I don’t so much care what people SAY they believe. I care what that means through their actions and stances they take.

6. Yes, only God knows anybody’s heart, but as i alluded to above, we are absolutely called to be discriminating with our leaders, and to hold what they say and do up to the standards of scripture, and let that be our guide.

I can smell some attempt at a trap with your line of questions, but I can’t see what it was or what you wanted to prove, but there’s a stab at it - from somebody who does not judge others religiously. Oh, and learn the difference between judging and discerning.

Tim,

One last thing, your statement:

“You cut a sad hypocritical figure D. Hoping that right will prevail isn’t good enough. Sometimes you have to get out in the trenches and help make it happen”.

This is exactly the mind-set that has caused GREAT EVILS IN THE NAME OF GOD AND CHRIST. Be careful and on guard from that one of darkness because this is the heart-set that lead churches and religious people of our past into much darkness and not light or life.

There are some things that another cannot make happen for others such as REPENTENCE, these type moral issues fall under the need of repentance before one’s heart will truly change and is something that only God can bring one to through His word that Christ instructed us all to go out into the world and preach. Why do you ones have such a hard time following His instructions prefering to follow your own mind?

Abortion does not lead the other human life to DEATH in the spiritual sense like other sins involving another human being. Only the humans performing the abortion and agreeing to the abortion (mother etc.) are in danger of DEATH in the spiritual sense and must come into repentance which no one else can do for another person or make it happen. Only God can do it and He told us the only thing that we could do to untie his hands to cause this to happen for many.

Again, when one takes the life of someone who has reached maturity we don’t know if that life has received God’s grace of forgiveness and salvation or what God’s plans were for that life in the area of salvation which is the ultimate prize, what this life on this present earth is all about.

We cannot know for sure if anyone including ourselves will be rewarded salvation, it is what I hope for and is why I desire more than anything else in this world to be obedient to His word and worship Him in spirit and in truth.