The aid money we spend is not to foster peace. I wish it was, but those dollars are spent for political reasons. Isreal is considered a balancing force to other groups in the region. Egypt is a desirable strategic partner because of the Suez Canal and their unique location as the confluence of Africa and the Middle East. I don’t think the government sees it as rewarding or punishing anything, but rather an investment in protecting our interests. I am not saying I think that is right, but I do think that is very accurate.

The reactions by American Muslims and Jews don’t help, but it is understandable given the passions of each side already in place even before this latest incident. At least our fellow Americans are keeping it at words and not getting into the violence that has cropped up in several European countries. It is hard to start a meaningful dialogue at times like this, but now is when the real leaders of each faith and the real leaders of men need to step up and foster that dialogue and create a useful discussion that will help end this mess.

If it can be done in Ireland, it can be done anywhere.

I don’t disagree with Khalid about the other areas of the world that have much larger problems than this that don’t get the attention of the world. At least for America, there are more Jews and Muslims in the media than Congonese, so naturally their attention will go to the Middle East first and foremost…

I must respectfully disagree.

“After over 40 years of violence and turmoil very little seems to have changed.”

Perhaps for Arabs, but not for Israeli’s. Israel thrives because it maintains enlightened Western ideals of religious,economic, and political freedom. It is the only truly representative and free democracy in the entire region and is one of the few states in the region that does not expressly forbid or repress non-Muslims. Certain other Arab nations have made progress over that time, but for the most part Arab states remain autocratic, backwards, and oppressive.

Palestinian Arabs have created for themselves a culture that glorifies death, destruction, and martyrdom that only they can abolish. It began in the 1960’s with the rise of militant nationalists like the PLO, but has gotten progressively worse as nationalist aims were overtaken by extreme religious fanatics with the overall goal of Islamic supremacy supported by the the mullahs in Iran and the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia.

“It seems each side only goads the other to ever more depraved acts of violence.”

I suppose that depends on how one defines depravity. I consider people who strap bombs on themselves and then detonate them in supermarkets, discos, commuter buses, and pizza parlors with the express purpose of killing innocent people depraved. I consider people who drive bulldozers into crowds of pedestrians depraved. I consider people who lob missiles and mortars indiscriminately into residential neighborhoods depraved. I consider people who use women and children as human shields depraved. I consider people who belong to and support organizations that openly declare as the prime goal of their existence the world-wide extermination of Jews depraved.

By any objective standard, there is only one side that acts with a callousness that can only be described as pure evil. While it is certainly true not all Palestinians adhere to this barbaric ideology, far, far too many of them do.

“Over the years, both sides have committed so many acts of violence against civilians that neither has any real claim left to moral righteousness for their position.”

This is, of course, complete rubbish. I find attempts to rationalize a moral equivalence between a culture that openly believes in the mass extermination of another to be repugnant in the extreme. One would be hard pressed to find a group of people less deserving of sympathy, much less moral and political support than today’s Palestinians.

There is only one side in this conflict that has a decades-long track record of utter disregard for innocent lives, be they the lives of Jews or their own people.

“Also consider that in these intervening years others were able to find peace in places with arguably just as difficult conflicts (like Northern Ireland and South Africa and the former Yugoslavia) while there is no peace in sight in Palestine”.

What was it Golda Meir said? When the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate Jews, there will be peace. The Irish, South Africans, Serbs and Bosnians never devolved into a culture that glorifies death, genocide, and martyrdom like Palestinian Arabs have.

“Each side in Palestine is very adept at blaming the other but neither has any real vision of peace.”

Again, this is rubbish. There have been numerous chances for peace between Israel and Palestinian including repatriation, establishment of a Palestinian state, land swaps, etc. Palestinians and their Arab state supporters have undermined them every single time.

“There has been a complete lack of leadership in both the Palestinians and the Israelis on how to achieve peace. A dispassionate observer would conclude that perhaps neither side really wants peace.”

A truly dispassionate observer can see quite clearly which side doesn’t want it. Palestine has been one of the longest running, and least deserving episodes of Grievance Theater in modern times. “Palestinians” could have had their own country in 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians countries of their own. Arabs rejected the UN offer and chose instead to wage a war of annihilation with the infant Israeli nation. They did it again in 1967. Both times the Arabs lost badly and have been whining about it ever since.

“As an American I am concerned that we have over that past 40 years spent more aid money in this area (mainly to Israel and Egypt) than the rest of the world combined and yet there has been no progress on achieving lasting peace.”

Indeed. Billions of dollars and tons of food and materiel are poured into the Palestinian territories each year, yet the people live in squalor. One wonders exactly what Palestinian political leaders are doing with all those resources. Somehow I don’t think their plight has as much to do with Israel as it does their own culture.

“Are we enabling and rewarding bad behavior and so making the situation worse?”

The UN, Arab world, and West certainly are. So long as a visceral hatred of Jews persists throughout Europe and the Muslim world and Westerners continue the culturally suicidal notion that says all ideologies and religious views have equal merit, the situation will get a lot worse. And not just for Israelis and Palestinians, but for people around the world. Islamist radicalism and global jihad is a cancer on civilization that must be eradicated.

“The same question goes to the American Jews and American Muslims. By our knee jerk responses are we also enabling and rewarding bad behavior and so making the situation worse?”

Not really. The problems the Palestinians currently face are solely their own doing. Only they have the power to change it.

“Looking around the world, there are humanitarian issues far greater than the Palestine-Israel issue in the world today that receive a fraction of our attention.”

Indeed. If you want an example of a group of a people who truly deserve the world’s moral support and sympathy, you need look no further than Tibet or Darfur.

“The rapid rise in grain prices and the impact on billions of poor the world over is surely a much greater crisis. Also the continuing problems in Western Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo impact far more people. Perhaps in view of the continued lack of progress in Palestine we need to focus some attention on these issues where we may have more positive impact.”

I agree completely. Decent people around the globe should do all we can to help the truly deserving and stop focusing on some of the world’s worst inhabitants.

“Finally I would like to offer this thought from Prophet Muhammad : ”help your brother whether he is a wronged or is a wrong doer.” And he went on to explain that: “the way you support your wrong doer brother is by stopping him from that bad action”. I hope that all of us exert more influence on our co-religionists in finding peace for all in Palestine.”

Which would be a nice sentiment if didn’t conflict with the Muhammad’s other thought that “brother” only extends to other Muslims.

Tim,
Thank you for your comments. I agree with everything you wrote and do lament that we cannot do more good with our actions as a nation.

Go Fish,
Your comments, from my perspective, completely validate everything I wrote.So I will just add two comments. Of course each ’side’ considers all its actions justified and all the ‘other sides’ actions heinous. But killing of any civilians is heinous, whoever does it. In the past few days Israeli bombing has killed more civilians in Gaza than all the civilians killed in years of rockets from Gaza. To not consider BOTH the actions of Palestinians and Israelis equally heinous is irrational a immoral double standard.

Your comments about Prophet Muhammad reveal ignorance. Muslims, good or bad, everywhere try to emulate the great example he left (the bad Muslims aren’t very good at following the his life example). I offer you only one fact left as a legacy of Muslims. The Jewish Book of History which states that the Golden period of Jewish Civilization was in the centuries of Muslim Spain. Surely if Jews consider their thriving civilization that existed under the patronage of Muslims as their Golden age, the life example of Prophet Muhammad deserves much credit and more serious study by all.

For peace and love to be present they each must give up being “right.”

I will disagree with your last statement, and I do so respectfully knowing it is the word of your prophet.

Both sides are committed to stopping the “wrong doers.” If you disagree, ask them.

The argument about a universally acceptable “rightenss” is never ending in the history of mankind, and has been the source of all wars, especially religous wars.

It is interesting to note the in my faith the ten commandments are very clearly inspiration, yet we call them “right” and “laws,” and if we don’t abide them we are “wrong,” if we do abide them we are “right”.

God says, “Do not kill.” It is simple, clear, and inspiring that it takes my breath away.

God does not say, “Killing is wrong.” or “Not killing is the right thing to do.”

God says, “Do not kill.” in a clear an inspiring way that touches me to my very soul. He does not declare it in a judgmental or righteous way.

Righteousness is in the realm of men, not God.

We, as human beings, will kill each other to be “right.”

It is this judgment in the name of “God” that we use to justify our killing. I do not see God making these judgments and doing this killing. I only see men doing it in the name of “God” and rightousness.

Men agree to respect life, to protect it, to honor it and nuture it because they are inspired to do so. Inspired by God if they choose.

To allow people to kill each other in the context of that commitment doesn’t work, and we will act to stop it. In this context nobody needs to be wrong or right. We will act to stop the killing.

There is no judgement, no right or wrong, no good or bad to confuse the commitment.

As people, we are inspired by life, we choose this for ourselves.

We can create for ourselves a community that exists without judgement, without righteousness, that honors what inspires us.

Nobody accepts themselves as a “wrong doer.” We can not convince or transform a “wrong doer.” The battle is lost when the judgmnent is present.

If the people in this world had integrity around their commitment to not kill. We would walk into this conflict and stop it, in a minute.

This is not what happens. What happens is we must first determine who is right in the matter. While we busy ourselves with this “Godly” work of who is “right” the killing continues, and the “righteous” men are glorified for upholding “righteousness.”

What is more important to people than life is maintaining their righteousness. Lives can be sacrificed for righteousness. Our leaders will tell us this.

Human beings will sacrifice their integrity under the veil of righteousness.

You will argue that “they” are abusing righteousness, not you, “they” are not abiding the right righteousness, we know the right rightousness because we are faithful followers of the one true God’s righteousness. Our God’s righteousness is the right righteousness. Ask us, and we will tell you.

Rightousness is for God not men. We use it for our own glorification.

I would assert that only God has power over it.

As people, we have what inspires us, we have choice and our integrity, we have committment. We have faith in these because they are from God.

As a Christian and a believer in the God of the Bible, I am not to judge or use the knowledge of sin. It doesn’t work for me to do so. I will surely die if I do so. God does not want this for me. God wants eternal life for me. I am inspired by this, and accept it as my own.

I believe the word you’re looking for is refutation, not validation. The argument that the deaths of innocent civilians is never justified has been refuted so many times that it needn’t be rehashed here. The claim is ridiculous on its face. So are the recently popular and patently absurd demands that Israel adopt some sort of “preportional” response strategy.

When Arab armies massed on Israels border in 1948 and again in 1967 with the expressed goal of pushing them into the sea, no one called for the Arabs to “exercise restraint”. No Arab or Western state demanded that Iran and Iraq employ some phony “proportional” strategy in their awful war of attrition. The Muslim world was silent as Russians killed hundreds and perhaps thousands of civilians in Georgia last summer. There has been little outcry over the tens of thousands killed by both Russians and Chechens in Chechnya over the last decade. Conspicuously, there appears to be no concern at all in the Muslim world at the plight of innocent Thais, Philippinos, non-Muslim Yemenis, Indians, and the Christians of Sudan who are butchered by the hundreds every day at the hands of jihadis. Given that fact, handwringing over the deaths of some not-so-innocent Palestinians amounts to nothing more than crocodile tears.

When faced with an existential threat, as Israel most certainly is from the genocidal fanatics of Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran, the only rational response is to use whatever force is necessary to stop or destroy that threat. This has been an internationally recognized principle since the dawn of the modern era. I recall no Muslim or Western state demanding the govt of Sri Lanka exercise restraint in it’s current civil war. Nor were very many concerned about the innocent citizens of Lebanon during it’s decades long civil war.

No other country on earth is held to such a ridiculous standard. The only ones who advocate such a thing are apologists for violent jihad and Israel’s enemies.

Of course the death of civilians is a horrible thing and something to be avoided whenever possible. However, when states or proxy organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah deliberatly target the civilian population of Isreal use their own civilian populations as human shields, and worse, those same civilians tacitly condone such tactics by keeping the thugs of Hamas in power, they necessarily waive any claim to innocent victimhood.

Again, the attempt at moral equivalency is repugnant. There simply is no way to compare the goals and values of a state like Israel with those of organizations like Hamas or Palestinians in general. Only one side in this equation openly and proudly advocates the complete extermination of the other and has demonstrated time and again its zeal in achieving that end. Only one side has openly and proudly declared that they will never accept peace no matter what the circumstance. People who don’t recognize or dismiss these most obvious facts have no business lecturing others about the morality or war.

Go Fish,

No the word I wanted was DEFINITELY validate and your second entry would make it validate 2x. The argument is simple ‘what we do is right and justified, what they do is wrong and horrible’. Both Palestinians and Israelis (or rather their respective fervent supporters) use this same line of argument. Which is why while people in South Africa were able to overcome apartheid but this problem seems still stuck in the past.

The only part of your response that is of interest is where you provide no support except to say “The argument that the deaths of innocent civilians is never justified has been refuted so many times that it needn’t be rehashed here.” It has been proven many times that it is OK to kill civilians? Really!? I know that Hitler used this argument and on a smaller scale Osama bin Laden uses this argument but I hope we can agree that those are morally bankrupt persons. Of course I am aware that many of the worlds armies justify civilian deaths or the euphemism of collateral damage. But there is no moral justification for their position as far as I am aware. I have covered this issue of civilian deaths in some detail (with help from others) in a previous blog. I would be curious what MORAL argument you can provide in support of killing civilians.

Justified lost of civilian lives in war or situations such as this one is no different than if this country were to make it a practice to allow the killing of hostages in bank robberies etc…for the possibility or goal of capturing or killing bank robber(s).

Khalid, I think I understand what you’re driving at, and there is some truth to what you say. However, the Islamic community does not, and has not publicly denounced the extremists in their midst. Neither have they taken a strong stand that grants Israel the nation the right to exist. Because of this failure, the various Islamic extremists can easily justify their actions in the name of their God.

What has always puzzled me about this conflict is this: Why is it that the various Islamic groups seem to get a free pass for their failures? Arafat stole probably BILLIONS of dollars worth of aid and cash from the people he pledged to lead, and the world said nothing. Hamas and Hezbollah sets off car bombs and rockets, and the world yawns. Israel gets pushed once too far, and suddenly the world takes notice, and not in a positive way.

Personally, I think the conflict over there has roots that go so far back into history that none of us can even comprehend them. I sometimes prefer to look at it simplistically and say that it’s really nothing more than a family feud, where the cousins are fighting over the inheritance. Now, the fact that the inheritance is a patch of not terribly productive land doesn’t matter much.

I do believe that the ultimate resolution is the so-called 2-state solution, but I also believe that there are enough radicals on both sides who want total victory for themselves that it will never come about. For every Hamas leader who wants to destroy Israel there is an Israeli leader who believes in Eretz Israel and wants to demolish the Dome of the Rock so that the Temple of Solomon can be rebuilt. And, there are a sizable number of fervent Evangelical Christians who believe the same thing and want to bring about Armageddon. Because this is all tied up in Religious fervor on top of the social, political, and military issues, I think it’s a much knottier problem than anyone really understands.

Thank you D. Walker. Yes I have yet to hear any argument that says it is OK to kill civilians and my position is it is never ever OK for anybody to kill civilians.

HS, Thank you for your comments. There have been a number of public announcements by various muslim groups condemning terrorism. Unfortunately they are not always covered widely. Here is CAIR’s link with all their announcements http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx

The issue of recognition of Israel by Arab Nations is a bit more complex. But the offer to work on it has been repeatedly made to Israel. The issues of Jerusalem and the right of return for Palestinian refugees are two that there is no agreement on and Israel refuses to discuss the issues. Personally I don’t care about the Jerusalem issue as much but refugee right to return is fundamental. Israel just recently pushed and won a case against Germany from WW2. The Palestinian refugees should have the same rights. Having said that here are a couple of articles about Arab League overtures towards Israel http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-07-25-mideast_N.htm?csp=34

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1556922/Arab-League-plans-first-visit-to-Israel.html

Finally, I don’t know if you have considered a One State solution. The realities are that is probably the only practical solution given how intertwined the two societies are. There used to be a Israeli restaurant at Olive and Fee Fee about 10 years ago and most of their customers were Arabs. Because Israeli food is Arab food. Israel is not in Europe, it is in the middle east and that makes it a middle eastern country. That is its destiny. Muslims and Jews have lived in harmony for centuries. My reference to the Jewish Book of History in an earlier response is a testament to how well they can live together. I remember reading an article a year or so ago about a Jewish family in Israel moving to a ‘mixed’ neighborhood (i.e., with Jews and Arabs living together) and loving it. That gave me some hope.

One suggestion is to remove righteousness of faith from the conversation among different peoples.

I am not suggestion people give up their faith, on the contrary, I am suggesting they use it to make their choices, not to justify them.

When war and killing is present there is a lack of integrity. People are not being who they say they are.

Nations who use their government as a tool of faith will be righteous and give themselves feet of clay. It is human nature.

They will justify horrible acts as necessary, as acts of righteousness inspired by their faith. They can not justify a horrendous act alone.

My faith wisely advises that I not mix the two. It advises that I bring my faith to my relatonships, not to bring my relationships to my faith.

The United States of America wisely chose not to include religion as a basis of our government. We did this with a passion to practise our faiths freely and the power in this was made know to us by experiencing first hand the oppression of a government justified by faith.

Wonderfully, honoring faith in this way is inspired by faith itself.