Should Redbirds go Greene? You don’t think so.
I see the mere mention of San Diego shortstop Khalil Greene, who broke his hand in a snit last season and barely hit his weight , has stirred considerable ire among some of you. I will publish one of the questions asked in reference to him, but I only suggested his name as someone to look into. I know it’s all about “What have you done lately?” but in 2007, Greene hit 27 homers and drove in 97 runs and he had 15 home runs in each of three seasons before that. The Cardinals need to make SS more of an offensive position and Cesar Izturis’ 24 RBI weren’t productive, just offensive.
Q: Commish,
What is (seemingly) everyone’s obsession with Khalil Greene? He was injured for the final two months of the 2008 season. He only hit a Kennedy-esque .213 last year. I understand he’s a good fielder, but has no Gold Gloves to show for it. Why would anyone want to actually give up a player in a trade for Khalil Greene when we could re-sign Izturis for cheaper? What does the front office see there that I don’t, or is that just ignorant fans’ speculation? Thanks for your insight.
A: I don’t think it would cost all that much to get Greene, who will be a free agent after next season. Perhaps a young arm. And, for the record, Kennedy hit .280 although also without much pop.
I know the Cardinals have many needs but why is Ludwick seemingly mentioned in every deal that the Cardinals try to make? I think all rumors have at least a little truth to them. I would hate to see how bad they would have been if he wouldn’t have been around so why do they seem so willing to get rid of him?
Q: I would be interested to know how the Cards measured up against the rest of the league in quality starts. I keep thinking we fell short there resulting in our pen’s ineffectiveness. I’m also worried regarding our inability to score in the later innings. If you were the GM, what would be your overall off-season strategy? Where would you put your emphasis? I realize that this may be a better subject for a full article, but in general terms maybe you could rank your objectives. Thanks Mr. Hummel.
A: Roger, I would rank the priorities as more bang from the middle infield (second base, shortstop), two lefthanded relief specialists, another starter and a veteran righthander who could close, in that order. I’m not a big fan of “quality” starts because I don’t think giving up three runs in six innings (an ERA for nine of 4.50) is all that good, but the relievers probably were called on too early too many times last season, mostly because of the ineffectiveness of the young pitchers replacing injured Carpenter and Wainwright and then Joel Pineiro’s inability to take many games past six innings.
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Q: Commish, can you explain the love for Barton ? He didn’t seem to have much of a season either here or on rehab in the minors, he can’t throw, and he doesn’t play the OF very well, at least as far as we have seen him up here. and he didn’t hit a whole lot. What is it that people (including TLR, whose opinion is the only one that counts) see in him ?
A: I don’t think TLR or anybody else in authority considers Barton anything more than a fourth or fifth outfielder and he is apt to spend much of next season at Class AAA. He does have speed and has a little sting in his bat and also has improved a bit as an outfielder.
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Q:
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Mr. Commish,
I read recently where the Cubs & Royals are talking about a possible trade involving Sean Marshall & Fontenot for Mark Teahen. Would the Cubs and Cards be willing to trade with one another? I think Sean Marshall would be a great addition to the Cards’ rotation. Assuming Colby is ready for the show, would Ankiel be too much to pay for Marshall?
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A: Rob, this might have some merit in another world, but the Cubs and Cardinals, as long as they’re both competing for the same prize, will never talk trade. It’s like the Red Sox and Yankees never trading with each other.
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Q: What if any are the chances of the Cardinals pursing Trevor Hoffman? I know the Padres gave him a ridiculous offer with 1 year/$4 million with incentives. Does he have any interest in the Cardinals and if so what would it take to get him? Thanks.
A: I would think Hoffman would have interest in coming here, but, so far, I haven’t heard concurrent interest from the Cardinals.
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When teams like the Cardinals announce that they have a $100 million payroll are they including in that figure the millions they are getting back from insurance on players who are on the DL (Carpenter, Mulder, Issingringhausen, Incarnacion, etc.)? If so the Cardinals “payroll” is more likely around $80 million.
Fred Walton
A: The payroll figure is the actual monies paid out to players in a particular season. Some of the players you mentioned have their contracts insured, in part, but certainly not that of Mulder, who had been injured before. It’s very hard to get insurance on a player with a previous injury history.
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Q: ont-size:70%;font-family:monospace;direction:ltr}Would the Cardinals consider making an offer to Looper as their closer
for next season?
I think moving him back to that role would be a viable option.
A: They signed Looper initially to be a potential successor to Isringhausen. But Looper, having experienced some success as a starting pitcher, wants to continue to do that. I don’t think he’ll sign anywhere else as a closer.
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Q: Commish,
I read many posts assuming Looper would only be as good (or worse) than last year’s version. Is it possible he would be much better with the experience gained in a starter’s role last year? He hasn’t been a starter very long. If I’m not mistaken, he pitched some really good games this past year. If he was more consistent and eliminate the really bad games his numbers would be much better. Am I wrong?
A: No, you aren’t wrong. But the odd bad game has been Looper’s bugaboo in his first two seasons asa a starter. He had fewer of those last season and showed himself to be very durable. But I don’t know if the Cardinals could compete with another team if it offered him a three-year (or more) contract. I’d like to have him back, though.
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Q: BODY{font-size:70%;font-family:monospace;direction:ltr}Mr. Hummel,
Thanks very much for taking our questions. I know that Carp’s status
is very much up in the air for next season, and
it depends on nerve tests, how he feels in springs training, etc. I
wonder if his arm condition would prohibit him from throwing 200
innings, but maybe he could handle the workload of a reliever. I think
a dominant starter is more important than a closer, so I disagree when
people suggest Wainwright as a closer. But if Carpenter can’t handle
the workload of a starter, he could be a shut-down closer,
Smoltz-style. I know it’s all dependent on his health, just some
wishful thinking. Would you take Carp as your closer if he can’t be
your ace?
Mark in St. Louis
A: Mark, I think being a closer might take more strain out of Carp’s arm than starting. I don’t know if he could warm up as quickly as might be necessary. But Tony La Russa did entertain that (closer) thought in 2008 when Carpenter was recovering from his shoulder aiilment and Smoltz was very successful at it. Basically, La Russa thinks the closer is the most important pitcher and Duncan thinks it is the starter. La Russa doesn’t back down to too many people, but if coach Duncan is strong enough in his desires, that is the way the Cardinals will go.
(16 votes, average: 4.31 out of 5)
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27 Hr’s & 97 RBI in 07 and 15 Hr’s in each of the 3 seasons prior to that.
The power is nice and the defense is as well. However, we DON’T need the power from the SS position, especially whenever it comes attached to an AVG & OBP that is inferior to even Izturis.
Now if his HR’s came with an average of .265+ and an OBP of .330+ that would something kick the tires on, but I’d rather have a consistent AVG & OBP hitter playing SS. Look at the team stats, offense was not a place we were really struggling at.
Team Rankings (ML)…Offensively for 2008:
AVG - 2nd
OBP - 4th
SLG - 7th
All of this was done, mind you, with an absurd amount of AAA players over the course of the season. Greene brings the extra pop that would put us in the top 5 in SLG, but it comes at the expense of dropping our AVG & OBP. Two things that should not be taken lightly.
And our ranking of 12th in Runs Scored isn’t going to be aided by his .247 AVG with RISP. Though Izturis only hit .216 in that situation, he’s not typically the guy your expecting to come up in that situation. Whereas with Greene, your looking for him to be more of an RBI guy. .247 just doesn’t cut it, for me.
If we get Greene, he better come with a good pitcher and we better get a reliable bat for 2B. If we get him, it’s understandable because of the Defense and Power. I just hope that we aren’t looking at the SS position like that….ie…HR’s over Base Runners.
I like Greene defensively, but don’t care for his weak OBP.
I think Trevor Hoffman is looking for one more big payday. Have fun, he’s 41 yrs old!!
I like Ludwick a lot offensively and defensively. But I also liked J.D. Drew. If the Cardinals can swing a J.D. Drew-like-trade with Ludwick, go for it!!! (King, Marquis, and Wainwright were very big pieces to the Cards ‘04-’06 years)
GO FOR BROKE, trade and lock up Peavy for four years. Compared to other pitchers he’s a steal, and he wants to come here.
Regarding Carpenter, hope for the best but plan for the worse.
But a Wainwright/Peavy as a one two punch, with Lohse and hopefully Carpenter will make this the best starting rotation in the NL.
Besides- Cards paid
Loshe 41 million over 4 years for a
(career) 78-80 4.67 ERA
(last year) 1.30whip 3.78 ERA (his best)
Trade anyone but Albert and Rasmus for
Peavy -
(career) 86-62 1.19whip .232BAA 3.25 ERA
(last year) 10-11 1.18whip .229BAA 2.85 ERA
2009 opening day age: 27
2009 salary: $11 million
2010 salary: $15 million
2011 salary: $16 million
2012 salary: $17 million
This guy is a stud on a bad team, MO has to work a deal.
Remember how the D-Backs won with Schilling/Johnson or the Braves with Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux. It’s a no-brainer. Get three starters with Wainwright, Peavy and Carpenter and let TLR change the line-up every night and win with pitching.
It’s also the best thing to do fiscally. Give your team a chance to win 4 out of every 5 games - and the fans will hit the turn-style.
I even promise to buy a Peavy shirt.
starting rotation-
1-Peavy
2-Wainwright
3-Carp
4-Lohse
5-Joe the Plummer for all I care
See ya Lugnut and Skippy, throw in 5 other players, I don’t care, just get Peavy for 4 years and win a world series.
get the word out!
I like Peavy, but not a fan of trading a bunch of studs for him. (see Mulder).
Cubsreek,
You just sold me on Peavy. What makes your proposition so enticing is that you are dead on about letting LaRussa make MLB diamonds out of AAA coal. He does it every year: pulls some no-namer up from the minors, i.e. duncan, skip, ryan, ludwick; bats them around Pujols, sits back and watches as they devour meatballs out of sheer terror of El Hombre on deck… In fact, it is plainly obvious we must improve the ONLY area were Pujols can’t directly affect: our pitching. Wait a minute… would there be a more intimidating sight with 2 out in the bottom of the ninth than massive Sir Albert staring down at you??? Just throwing it out there… MO, GO GET PEAVY!
I agree with you cubsreek! This is a way to lock up another fantastic pitcher for long term at a huge market discount. I am worried about injuries though. I don’t think we’ll make the trade due to short term memory of Mulder! Also if we do give them what I heard they wanted Lud, the shoeman, and Motte we will need to get a leadoff hitter and closer. Right now I view Motte as our closer. However, if the Padres are serious about moving Peavy, I just read the Braves are done talking to them and we have more to offer than the Cubs, we might eventually be able to get him for a little less.
If Greene didn’t have a down year he wouldn’t be in the Cards’ conversation right now. I have no problems with Izturis, but if there’s going to be a change, I say taking the risk for Greene will require reasonable “green,” keeping in mind we have another Greene down the road.
Sign Renteria and Lopez for SS & 2nd base. Trade excess outfielders Skip, Mather, Duncan for good young starting/emerging pitcher to a team that needs offense — e.g. AZ or SF. Sanchez or Scherzeror somebody like him would do well.
Or if you have to trade Ludwick, get Escobar! Make McClellan your young starter!!
Get Reyes or Ohman for lefty relief! Sign Randy Johnson or Brad Penny if Carpenter can’t go next year!!
Why does everyone assume that the players the Padres are asking the Cardinals for doesn’t include Wainwright. He is who I would be asking for if I was the Padres GM. People who propose trades should start thinking like opposing GMs not fans.
Padres payroll is expected to be 50mil compared to the Cards 100mil.
Wainwright is guaranteed 4 years at 15 mil. The Padres might ask for Wainwright but they won’t get him. Not with their intentions on reducing payroll and his value to the Cards.
MO should at least be trying to get a little Jockety out there and work some deal. He won’t come cheap but he’s needed here.
Pitching wins championships. And if MO was scared of another Mulder fiasco then he would have never signed Lohse at 40mil.
Cards have enough to pull this deal off.
I agree that we should go Greene, just not Khalil Greene. I would really like to go Tyler Greene. We don’t even have to trade anybody to get him or worry about him leaving via free agency anytime soon.
I think the Cards need to go gung ho and get Jake Peavy and Khalil Greene. Now I know what happened to us about Mark Mulder but guess what? Ever heard of what goes around comes around? And when those goings come back around they sometimes bite pretty hard. Remember what the Cards did on March 23, 2000? You don’t? Well, that’s when we traded Kent Bottenfield and Adam Kennedy to the Anaheim Angels for Jimmy “Ballgame” Edmonds. The key here is Kent Bottenfield. Remember just how good he pitched for us in 1999? He was 18-7 with a 3.97 ERA in 190.3 IP. He had a career year in 1999. Then after the ‘99 season he would never pitch that effective again. Why? I think I can explain that. I think the reason Walt Jocketty traded Bottenfield is because he, LaRussa and Duncan knew he had at least a career threatening injury to his (right) pitching shoulder. To put it all in a nutshell, I think the Cards traded damaged goods to the Angels and sooner or later it was bound to come back and bite us hard in the behind. Well it did when we traded for Mark Mulder. I just somehow keep thinking that the A’s traded damaged goods to us in exchange for Dan Haren, Kiko Calero and Daric Barton. Essentially we got what we asked for.
I personally would not be concerned or worried at all about trading for Peavy. Things like that happened with Mulder seem to happen for a REASON. In dealing for Peavy it would more of an equal deal, unlike the Bottenfield for Edmonds deal or the Haren, Calero and Barton for Mulder deal. Mr. Mo needs to pull the trigger on this deal and make this Cardinal team great again.
Happy and safe Thanksgiving to all!
Peavy is a luxury the Cardinals can’t afford until they solve some of their other problems. We didn’t miss out on a playoff berth last year because of the lack of starting pitching. It was because of the lack of a closer, LH relief and an inconsistent offense, caused primarily by the lack of production from the middle infield. If these problems aren’t addressed this offseason then the Cards will be sitting on the side lines next October even with Peavy heading up the rotation. Having Peavy got some very good Padre teams exactly one play-off win from 2004-2008.
“Having Peavy got some very good Padre teams exactly one play-off win from 2004-2008.” You are correct Sailor Jay but whomelse did the Padres have noteworthy behind Peavy in thier post-season rotation? That is the reason why they only got one play-off win in the time span that you mentioned. We on the other hand would potentially have Wainwright and Lohse to compliment him in our rotation. Our top 3 rotation guys would be Peavy, Wainwright and Lohse. To me, that’s a pretty darn good 1-2-3 punch that in a way kinda reminds me of the 1985 1-2-3 punch we had in Joaquin Andujar, Bob Forsch and John Tudor. Now as far as not being able to afford Peavy, well Mr. DeWitt would have to open DeWallet but the time has cometh for him to open it. According to Forbes magazine, the St. Louis Cardinals are worth a whopping $454M compared to the 1995 purchase price of $150M. There is one thing our upper brass would love to see and that’s more butts in the seats at Busch and trading for Peavy would hands down be one very good way to achieve that. Yea, it may hurt us a bit prospect wise in the short run but we have a few guys we could trade for prospects. But in the long run it would be well worth the money spent. As long as we keep our team payroll below what the team net worth is I have no objections to Mr. Mo trading for Jake Peavy and Kahlil Greene and maybe even signing Randy Johnson.
I have been a Cardinal fan since the WS of ‘46. Pujols is a terrific player…maybe as good as Musial. Alluding to the question above concerning trading Ludwick I am wondering how good Ludwick would be w/o batting behind Pujols? And seeing how the Cardinals could have finished in first place in the Central if they had only blown 19 games instead of 31, the need for a top notch reliever seems to be their number one need. Maybe they should trade Carpenter if that is contracturally possible? And, I noticed the WS winner this year didn’t have Pujols. Maybe he’s the player to trade…that is if the GM don’t mind getting shot!!!! After all, how long do you think the Cards can keep him?
Commish, what are the chances to see this lineup in 09? Escobar, Rasmus, Pujols,Dye,Ankeil,Glauss,Molina,pitcher,Miles. Trade Ludwick for Escobar and prospects for Dye. Spend free agent money on lefties and a starter. Thanks Mr. Hummel.
I think picking up Greene would be a great benefit for the Cards offense. He would provide a little pop toward the end of the lineup, something the team has lacked the past few years. I still love the idea of moving Skip to 2nd, freeing up space for Rasmus, and still being able to keep Ankiel and Ludwick. Mo would just need to be willing to pony up the dough for a SS and pitchers we would need. Just imagine this lineup:
1. Skip
2. Rasmus
3. El Hombre
4. Ludwick
5. Glaus
6. Ankiel
7. Greene
8. Molina
Enough to strike fear into the hearts of any pitcher!
I don’t understand all the fuss about Tyler Greene. He had a good half-season in AA ball after a career of under-achieving expectations, doesn’t do well after his promotion to AAA, and people are ready to hand him the starting shortstop job.
Khalil Greene, despite his poor 2008 season, is a reasonable risk, and wouldn’t cost us that much, in terms of what we have to give up, to obtain. And I should point out that much of his problems lie in Petco Park, where he has a .225 lifetime batting average. His road splits - .270/.324/.424 - are much more reasonable, especially given that he’s a good defensive shortstop.
I just hope, in our desire to get more “pop” from the middle infielders, that we won’t sacrifice too much defense in doing so, especially with our reliance on ground-ball pitchers.
Indeed, if we were to somehow pick up a stud second baseman (like Hudson if he could only stay healthy), I could live with keeping Cesar Izturis around for another year, given the level of *his* defense.
Look we are NOT going to sign Rafael Furcal or Orlando Cabrera to play short or any other big name free agent bat,glove, or arm to help the Cards win!!!! We cant even get Trever Miller signed to pitch to 1 left handed batter. We SHOULD trade for Jake Peavy @ Khalil Greene. I KNOW the bullpen blew over 30 saves last year. BUT if our starters were going 7 + NOT 5 or 6 the bull pen would have been much better,,if Izy had gone on the DL in May!! MOST closers want more money @ years than MO is going to give so FORGET a free agent closer!! Make our starting Pitcher the best we can get. Peavy, Wainwright,Lohse,Wellemeyer,Carpenter if arm is good, if not Pineiro. IF good pitching STOPS good hitting, that rotation is NOT BAD!!!!! Let Perez or Motte close, 1 will go to SD in the Peavy trade. Go after a low $ closer in Feb that is left on the market or bring up Mark Worrell. I THANK you could get Peavy @ Greene for Jason Motte,Skip Shoumaker,Brendan Ryan,Mitch Boggs, Daryl Jones, @ Clayton Mortensen. ONLY Motte @ Shoumaker will have a big impact on the 09 Cardinals!! Bring back Felipe Lopez for 2nd K.Greene at short Miles reserve for both 2nd @ short.
As for the Mulder for Dan Haren,Daric Barton @ Kiko Carlio trade. BEST i can RECALL EVERYBODY,couldnt wait to get rid of Dan Haren for ANYBODY!!!! Dan Haren needed a change,he was over rated,he was done as a Cardinal. We were more upset about trading Kiko @ Barton than Haren. Well look at Haren now. Two years from now we can say look at Haren @ Anthony Reyes. WHO did we get for Reyes ?? Is he on the 40 man roster?? The Haren, Bottenfield,Reyes, trade has NOTHING to do with a trade for Peavy!!!
GO GET PEAVY @ GREENE. Do NOT trade LUDWICK!!
Lopez 2nd
Rasmus cf
Pujols 1st
Ludwick rf
Ankiel lf
Glaus 3rd
Molina cat
pitcher, Wainwright,Peavy,Lohse,Wellemyer,Carpenter
K.Greene ss
NOT A BAD 09 team!!!!!!
I would like to see the Cardinals try to make a trade with the Phillies for Jason Donald (SS); he was the SS for the USA Olympic team and outstanding minor league record, but is blocked by Rollins. Cards should be able to trade some of their top minor league prospects for him–either one of their 3B or maybe an OF.
Ken, I like the idea of exploring a trade for Jason Donald. I just checked his 2008 stats and they do indeed look very impressive. Perhaps we could trade Colby Rasmus or Bryan Anderson and a lesser prospect for him. However, there are 2 problems: 1) Jason Donald has no AAA experience as of yet and therefore I would not just trade for him and plug him into the big league team. I would however invite him to the big league camp in spring training then send him to AAA Memphis under a very watchful eye and 2) Who, while Donald is at AAA, would be our SS? Would you still try to swing a deal for Kahlil Greene? Or would you try to sign someone to be our interim SS? Pleae keep in mind that there is no guarantee that Donald will be ready for the bigs anytime in 2009 (i.e. Colby Rasmus). This is a bit of a complex situation as to try to avoid the same situation (being blocked by _)from repeating itself. Now I would still try to swing a deal for Donald but I wouldn’t trade away the farm for him as we have other pressing needs that still need attention.
Mr. Commish, I find your priorities for the off-season strategy interesting. Why would you, along with a lot of other people, not have the need for a dependable closer #1 on your list? You can spin all the stats you want for 2008, but plain and simple, 31 blown saves cost us a spot in the playoffs. Are you convinced that one of our young reliefs are ready to close? I’d feel much more confident with a dependable, proven veteran in that role. Heaven forbid we do nothing in this area, then suffer through the same late inining nightmares we experienced in 2008. I appreciate you sharing your thought with the best fan base in MLB.