Hey John, The question begs to be asked; “What do you get out of this?” Write more, this letter was a hoot.

Keep up the socialist pimping.

While I find Mr. Joseph’s comments appalling, I find his honesty refreshing. He could have saved himself much typing by merely saying that everything is the white man’s fault and “kill the pig.” I know it is usually a waste of time to respond to such an emotional rant but here goes. The letter writer seems to subscribe to identity politics rather than individual rights. The only way racism will ever be defeated is if we quit viewing people as part of a group and start viewing them as individuals. People like Mr. Joseph who judge people by the color of their skins are racist.

Slavery is one of the biggest wrongs in history. At times during history, most people’s ancestors have been slaves and slaveholders. Nobody has any greater moral authority based on the color of their skin. There is not a person alive today that has owned a slave nor a person that experienced being a slave. In a free society we are responsible for our own actions, not the actions of some long dead person with similar skin pigment. White and black people were both responsible for slavery. In fact, virtual slavery still exists in many parts of Africa. The vast majority, if not all, of the African slaves that were shipped to American were sold by black people. Black people in the USA have a far greater standard of living than their counterparts in other parts of the world..

I have honestly never seen any institutional racism except that which benefits a minority group. Mr. Joseph also conveniently forgets to mention all of the various groups demanding special privileges that are not members of a group which ever experience slavery in America.

The attitude expressed is fostered by demagogues that rile up people like Mr. Joseph. The antidote for this line of thinking is a clear philosophical basis for individual human rights. Any attempt by the government to determine who is worthy of a job, admission to a school, or contract by looking at the persons race or ethnic background is an affront to all fair thinking people. Our entire system of government and society will crumble if people only think of themselves in tribes that should use the power of government to take from others.

“I have honestly never seen any institutional racism except that which benefits a minority group. Mr. Joseph also conveniently forgets to mention all of the various groups demanding special privileges that are not members of a group which ever experience slavery in America.”

I would urge you, David, to look closer at the dynamics of the city of St. Louis. The way the city is laid out is an intentional effect of the history of racism. Practices like redlining and the structure of the Metro system have strengthened the segregation of the city. The racial segregation corresponds to the socioeconomic segregation of the city. And this continues the cycle of lack of education, lack of decent jobs, lack of adequate housing, lack of social mobility.

No Mr. Joseph, I cannot say either of my parent’s families, who originated in the South, benefited
from the institution of slavery. The exact opposite in fact, in ways historic, economic, and karmic.

“I would urge you, David, to look closer at the dynamics of the city of St. Louis. The way the city is laid out is an intentional effect of the history of racism. Practices like redlining and the structure of the Metro system have strengthened the segregation of the city. The racial segregation corresponds to the socioeconomic segregation of the city. And this continues the cycle of lack of education, lack of decent jobs, lack of adequate housing, lack of social mobility.”

Willigillbert, The city of St. Louis has been under the thumb of the Democratic machine for over 50 years.

John -

Slavery was an atrocity…no one disputes this fact. However, only putting the blame on white people in American and Europe is ridiculous. American and European slaves were bought and/or traded from African warlords/tribal leaders for monetary gain…not hunted and stolen like in the far-fetched story “Roots”. Equal blame should be placed on the “motherland Africa” as well as American and European people for past atrocities.

Furthermore, collectively blaming white people for lack of black prosperity only perpetuates the sense of entitlement, and it enslaves future generations from living a productive life based on personal responsibility. The Democrats have sold black people a “bill of goods” regarding affirmative action. Basically, the Democratic liberal agenda has stated “black people are inferior and need preferential treatment in the workforce in order to thrive”

You can state your opinion about this subject matter, but that all that it is…an opinion. So tell me John, just how has slavery affected your personal life in 2008?

I wonder if Mr. Joseph holds African who sold other Africans into slavery as he does to Americans?

David H., and others who are in denial of their and America’s evils,

Please let’s not attempt to justify or redeem White America from guilt in this way that you are attempting. Your thinking that Blacks as well as Whites were responsible for slavery is error on your part and is just plain stupidity. Then to go on and state that the vast majority, if not all, African slaves brought to America were sold by other Blacks is very foolish in thinking.

Black slaves did take part in this trading of slaves because they where forced and trained to through beatings and cruel mental conditioning and training, such as was done to that poor child Shawn Hornbeck.

This mental conditioning and training was exactly as discussed in the Willie Lynch letter (speech), “How to Train a Slave” as can be read at the following:

http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewArticle.asp?id=14992

The more you learn about mankind through the eyes of God, you don’t think so much about how racist White’s or some are, but only just how evil man is apart from God/Christ. You see Satan at work through indiviuals. That’s all one should see when they see racism no matter where it has surfaced, through individuals. laws, government, employment, etc…

Look at Rowanda, even though it were White Europeans that were used by Satan to stir up the jealousy between the two African tribes. Much how some White Americans are doing in this country today to stir up conflict between Hispanics and Blacks. People must become wise and not fall into Satan’s traps no matter what it cost you. People must turn away from evil and stop taking part in it.

Look at the Drew Peterson case, now, it took many in authority, other policeman, the coroner and others taking part in the evil of protecting that cop from prosecution and covering up that homocide as an accidental drowning. These types of evils are happening everyday in our government everywhere. These ones with authority truly believe that they will escape punishment and Hell. Or, they foolishly in error think that they will just have to spend some time in the non-existent place some call Purgatory to pay for their sins then go on to Heaven.

Americans make strong claims of being a Christian Nation, ignoring the fact that no Christian Nation (government) could possibly participate in such evils as slavery, murder etc…, if it were a Christian Nation. Such evil would grieve a Christians spirit and he would not be able to live with such evil(s) because Christ lives within the true Christian. Just isn’t possible to carry on in evil ways when Christ lives within you. Evil behavior separates one from God.

Evil is not tolerated by God from those that He consider belonging to Him.

This country (government), even in this present day have not turned away from its unfair and oppressive practices and the White superiority complex that is a curse to so many in this country even though they are blind to the fact that it is indeed a curse to them and not the privilege that some see it as.

This country also attempt to justify itself as being a great place to live by comparing our government to other countries who do not claim to be Christian Nations, how narcisstic. We Americans fail to realize that we are in a worst state than all those non-christian nations in the eyes of God because we like the Pharisees claim to be godly.

Remember that it took God 500 years to come against the great country of Eygpt when they held the Hebrews in slavery. Just because this country have faired well thusfar, we are foolish in our thinking that it was because we were a godly and righteous country. The one thing for certain is, if this country ( government) keep in their foolish and evil ways, this country will be brought down to nothing just as Egypt was. We are getting a glimspe of what is to come unless we change.

The citizens of the country reflects the heart of the government.

What are the symptoms of oppressed people in a Country? Think about that one.

When a governemt is corrupt, the citizens behave dishonestly and corrupt also, and some including our corrupt authority behave as though they are surprised by high crime etc…

Our citizens are nothing more than a reflection of the government they live in.

Lastly, affirmative action is needed in the United States because sadly we have here due to this country’s ugly past and history, tand present, he demonic spirit of racism. Racist, unfair and oppressive ways will not disappear from one’s heart unless that person is changed by God, which happens only once that person truly becomes a child of God.

And just think, churches have one of the most racist histories than any other organization in the United States. We justify that too instead of accepting God’s truth that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. There is no justification for any of America’s evils.

Mr Joseph,

you are suffering from “white quilt”. the origination of the term is from a book written by
Shelby Steele in 2006 titled White Guilt: how blacks and whites together destroyed the promise of the civil rights era.

here’s an excerpt:
“Whites (and American institutions) must acknowledge historical racism to show themselves redeemed by it, but once they acknowledge it, they lose moral authority over everything having to do with race, equality, social justice, poverty and so on. [...] The authority they lose transfers to the ‘victims’ of historical racism and becomes their great power in society. This is why white guilt is quite literally the same thing as black power.”

you would enjoy reading this book, Mr. Joseph, as the author is black.

Keep blaming the white man. Who sold you as slaves? Your Chiefs.

The problem with slavery wasn’t that people sold slaves, it was that people were willing to take away the human dignity of others for their own economic gain. The market in the USA was created by whites who wanted to make money on the backs of others.

What is the greater and more damning offense? Any one with a moral compass above the age of three would acknowledge that the system of slavery was the more evil. And if others did not sell people into bondage those intent on enslaving others would have found a way to ensnare humans into their immorality.

The river denial is a long river and apparently quite wide according to some of the slavery apologists on this forum. What was done to the African-American in slavery is just one part of a story on how white people in America treated people of other races. The Native American was slaughtered, the Asian workers exploited and the African-American enslaved. And, yet it was their fault for not being in power, or white. America has a cruel history when it comes to race. Slavery cannot be so easily dismissed by those who will not take responsibility for the wreckage that has been our history since white folks got off the boat. Whites continue to live on the advantage created by those cruel racist practices.

While acknowledging Mr. Johnson’s noble sentiments, I must admit that his proposal smacks of the selling of indulgences by the fourteenth century Catholic church. I agree that the actions and attitudes of some white Americans (and others) in the past, directly affect conditions experienced by other races in the present. The deed is done, and no amount of affirmative action or recompense can make it undone. I would add to Mr. Johnson’s list native Americans who were forced to walk the “Trail Of Tears,” during the Andrew Jackson administration, Mexican Americans forced from their ancestral lands during the takeovers of Florida and Texas, the Chinese who were exploited during the building of the country’s railroads, and the Japanese who were interred during World War II. America’s history, in many ways honorable, has had its periods of imperialism, persecution, and oppression. We would rather not think about them, but the consequences endure. If allowed to continue, the condition is always fatal.

And yet, civilization has a universal legal tradition that “the son should not be made to pay for the sins of the father.” Some would see that as justice, others would see it as a loophole–it is both. We owe something to the progeny of those our ancestors have oppressed. Aside from a promise to never do it again, I’ll be damned if I know what it is.

Monkaton— I agree with you. There were white slaves too. It was wrong for anyone to be a slave at any time or any place.

And as a post script. White companies also exploited white workers until labor unions came about and swung the pendulum back to a more just position. Remember the company store and how workers would have to buy their goods from the company that paid their wages leaving the worker with little or nothing? Remember how worker’s safety and child labor laws were obstacles to free enterprise and capitalism? African chiefs had nothing to do with that exploitation. White business men exploiting white workers for their own economic gain in a harsh and brutal system.

Now that labor unions have diminished in power we have corporations exporting American jobs to exploit poor people around the world at the expense of the American worker. Who is the patriot? Who believes in America? Not the people who would make their bones on the backs of kids and those unable to rally for themselves. And once again, it’s not the African Chiefs who have set up this system. It was the white industrial power base of America.

It is much easier, and salves the conscience to blame the exploited and not the exploiters.

Commander, I agree with you.

One of the steps that America has taken, besides allowing all Americans to participate in the American system through the ballot box and other laws, is affirmative action. It is not an answer, but an acknowledgment that there is a need for retribution to even out the years of injustice based on race.

And yet, people still claim it was those damn African Chiefs that caused all this. Not the will and intent of the those in America who would discriminate and exploit based on race and race.

The gamut of response here runs from people angry at the very CONCEPT of historical culpability
in slavery to those trying to yoke the reality of oppression in the past to what we’ve become now.
Societies are fluid, changing—and what was accepted and the law of the land once is now seen
for what it was. Slavery: the great tragic flaw of our nation’s history, running counter to all those ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence. As #11 stated, America does have a cruel history when it comes to race, but then that is the history of the human race, is it not? There has also never been a nation where those evils have been as relentlessly challenged and questioned as ours.

The fact of Mr. Obama’s candidacy, at this time and place in our history, shows the changing dynamic of thought and heart in the United States. There are millions of his supporters who have voted for this man in primaries not because of his race, but for what is seen as the content of his character and his abilities as a leader. We are not as good as those who deny the worst of our history, and neither are we the worst example of a nation grappling with racial injustice
in the world today. Think about it.

Amazing that the same people who want to apply 2008 norms to 1808 culture ignore the damage racism causes in all eras of history, including today.

Blacks who are able to get over their blackness are accused of “acting white.” Blacks who see themselves first as a person, friend, employee, teacher, or student have every right to the same respectful treatment as any other race. Those who see themselves first as “black” can expect to be treated with that self imposed discrimination.

Panderers’ arguments notwithstanding, I see that reality in my daily interaction with people of several ethnic origins. If the letter writer’s “payback” is important enough to foster racism in generations to come, so be it. Go burn a Confederate flag and feel good about yourself Mr. Joseph.

I’ve always wondered how America can be painted as such racist, oppressive country, but millions of people have come here from countries all over the world, unable to speak the language and without education, yet they succeed beyond their wildest imaginations. Hmmmmmmmm.

Since our family has ancestors who fought for the north during the civil war, I feel that my guilt has been washed away.

Self righteousness is never a way to solve anything, such as the hearts of those who say, “Whites have been slaves also”…..

But, then people should not be moved or surprised by the denial and self justification of any people because they are blinded and no one but God can and will unblind these ones if He and only He finds them worthy of removing their blinders.

So one must learn who to overcome evil people inspite of because Satan’s children on this earth will not be disappearing for a long long time.

It is useless attempting to reason with those who belong to the devil. All who are racist, oppressive, unfair, conceited, and all who do not love righteousness, but get off on their power to do wrong and treat others unjust, all are children of the devil.

Those who are good people who love righteousness must stay focused on not becoming like these evil people, we see them everywhere, at work, in government, as neighbors, in your own families, etc…sometimes all you can do is pray to get through it each day without killing some of these demonic oppressed people.

Racism is just one of Satan’s many vehicles to destroy others. Evil people working as tools of the devil are everywhere causing others to suffer greatly from their deeds. They are truly devil operatives. And the good people out there know what I am speaking about, but FOOLS will never understand. Some there are no hope for, but the thing is we as humans don’t know who these are, or and which ones God will allow the blinders to be removed from.

Monkaton,

Thank you, but I suspect you mistook my meaning. Something should be done, but I do not think affirmative action is the answer. It’s like playing one of those handheld games, where you try to get the little balls in the holes, by tilting one way or another (I’m really dating myself)–it can’t be done until you first level the playing field. We start by recognizing past injustices and making a commitment not to repeat them. We then must attempt to remedy any existing consequences available, that are practical, to guarantee a level playing field in the future. I fail to see the fairness or effectiveness of discriminating against my offspring, to make up for past wrongs against someone else’s. Bias one way is every bit as wrong, as bias another way. The balls still don’t go into the little holes.

You cite, as an example of progress, African American participation at the ballot box. But a closer inspection of the 2000 presidential election, shows obviously that the intent of thousands of blacks living in Florida and elsewhere was either manipulated or disregarded. It’s a little late in the day to demand a recount, but the event happened nonetheless. Perhaps, instead of affirmative action, the next step on the road to recovery should be to actually count their votes in 2008.

Mr. Joseph, do two wrongs ever make a right? You forgive, you move on. You reform. Affirmative action isn’t sensible in a democratic and free society, just as slavery wasn’t. It is a continuation of an eye for an eye, punishment for long past issues. Furthermore it does nothing to continue the mending and growing of race relations, instead it exaccerbates it like a festering sore.

D. Walker (Post #8 & 29),

Your posts consist of irrational rants, biblical verses, and purported damnations to hell. It is impossible to decipher your point on most of your posts. There have been many recent publicized violent incidents at least partially related to untreated mental illness. I have no intent to insult you. This is a serious thought. I would humbly suggest that they get a thorough checkup from your doctor if you are not already under the care of a competent mental health care professional.

I get that slavery was a horrible thing and should have never happened, however, I was not around for this. I did not get anything out of slavery. I am tired of being blamed for something that my great(times grandfather or grandmother MIGHT have done. There isn’t slavery in america anymore and I highly doubt that anyone that was in slavery is still around. I just get tired of being blamed for slavery when I wasn’t involved in it and neither was the person accusing me of it.

Post 22-

Logus- your comment makes the most sense.

To continue digging up the past will only create further hatred. Yes,
things should be fair for all, and let’s make sure they are.

But the free rides and handouts only worsen the situation for all
and continue the racial divide.

Women had been cheated for years when it came to working
pay and voting. As a man, I believe they are equals and I work
with a lot of women. But I very seldom hear women complaining
of their treatment 100 years ago. They have gotten to this point
by working and proving they can do it, not by complaining and
expecting a handout.

Let’s keep moving ahead.

No white guilt here. The black race is it’s own worst enemy. Like Bill Cosby said, if you don’t want to spend your life in a ghetto, get an education, get a job and don’t make a baby until after you are married. I grew up in East St. Louis, not the best place to start out. But then I was willing to work my butt off and make a good life for myself. Sorry folks but it is not where you start out, it’s where you end up. They need to change their role models from gangsters to blacks who have achieved (and there are tens of millions of them.) The married Rev. Jesse Jackson goes to the White House to talk to Bill Clinton about Monica and who does he take with him? His pregnant girlfriend, now that’s leadership. We need to sent up programs that help the poor get ahead, no matter what their skin color.

Should be ’set up” sorry for the typo.

I doubt if we will ever come to a point where many people are not calling for affirmative action. Next year, ten years, or five hundred years from now, some people will use excuses and demand affirmative action.

First of all, I am not nor ever have done anything racially modivated towards anyone because of their skin color in my life and don’t feel that I am to blame for anyone else that did. Let me compare that to the present day. The PD and all media oulets are now into “Muslim” sensitivity.
The “don’t blame your Muslim neighbor for 9-11, they did not do it and would never be a part of terrorist activity.” Okay, I won’t blame my Muslim neighbor for 9-11 if the media will stop blaming me as a white for slavery and black opression. If anyone has had a white daughter trying to get into college lately, you will understand the “logic” of affirmative actions.

All people should be judged on their own individual actions and ability and not as a group based on the color or their skin or their religion. Period.

The 29 previous responses illustrate perfectly why black Americans, as a group, will continue to spurn the Republican party even though they cannot point to much that the Democratic party has accomplished for them in the last quarter century.

If someone can prove that I did something wrong, I’ll be happy to pay retribution. I don’t consider myself culpable for the mistakes of my ancestors, and I don’t see any reason that I should consider anyone of any race on anything but their merits. There is absolutely no legal or even moral reason for affirmative action.

Meg-#26

You hit it square on the head. Go girl.

Bottom line…. affirmative action is racist. The only possible discussion is whether some racism is good and other bad.

Chew on this…13% of America is black, 7% of the pro baseball players are black but 11% of the pro baseball managers are black. Should we not fire the extra 4% of black managers and replace them with Latino managers because they are 15% of the ball players and a larger minority in America than blacks??? Now there is some affirmative action I can get behind. The time of the black man/woman is over, if they haven’t made a life for themselves by now then that’s just to bad. Here come those hard working, I will have a better life Latino’s. They don’t cry and sob “Poor me” they work as hard as they can because they know that’s the way to pull yourself up the economic ladder. I have a hard time feeling sorry for a group of people who are at the bottom because of self inflicted wounds.

“It’s payback for 250 years of slavery. It’s payback for masters being able to beat their slaves whenever they felt like it, rape the women whenever they felt like it, give the women to a friend for his pleasure whenever they felt like it, sell a slave whenever he needed a few extra dollars, and finally for a master being able to murder any slave at any time for any reason and the only punishment he might be subjected to would be to pay his victim’s master the slave’s market value.”

In case anyone hasn’t noticed, my political views run left of center, which is to say, they are mainstream positions. I think affirmative action is a reasonable tool when wielded appropriately. What I despise is when persons use the argument above to validate their views. Cheez-whiz, talk about your “liberal guilt”.

No one in this country should be held accountable for the sins of their slave owning forefathers. No one I know of, and I hang out with a “liberal” group (maybe conservatives have different experiences…but I digress), owns a slave, has beat a slave, has raped a slave, sold a slave, lynched a slave, attended a slave auction, slaved away at a hot stove or a job they hated, they have not slaved in any manner of fashion…so to hold me and the folks today accountable for these transgressions is a non-starter for me. The second words like this tumble from your mouth you are automatically tuned out and are a person to be ignored due to your ignorance.

My forefathers hopped a boat from Ireland and other European countries because they were impoverished in their home countries, went through the Ellis Island process to get to this land where the streets are paved with gold…only to be told that the Irish weren’t wanted and the Irish need not apply…talk about discrimination…Where’s their affirmative action? I want restituion for the bigotry my ancestors faced when they got to the US. Come on you blue-blooded WASPs, pay up. I’ll settle for $15,000 in cash (preferably 10’s and 20’s) Come on, who doesn’t like knocking back a cold one with an Irish guy!! We’ll drink ya under the table…especially the French…which I am also part.

You know what point you missed? Black soldiers returning from WWII, returning from defending the US, who were expecting a heroe’s welcome were treated just like all the other black people at the time…even if they were war heros.

And your closing…how the heck to you equate paying high gas prices for reparations? Now if you want oil companies to give money to today’s ancestors of slaves, I wouldn’t be opposed to that….

Your premise, arguments and points, and conclusion make as much sense as Republicans who still write letters and try to defend the Bush administration and the shoddy, criminal job it has done running this country for the past 7.5 years.

#23, David H.

Not surprising that you feel the way you do as expressed in your #23 post.

So are you so blind as to think that our system of government is not crumbling now?

You think that your post #2 is rational and sane? You sound like someone trying very hard to sound sane.

Lastly, it is obvious that you do not understand what the human being’s purpose is on this earth, neither, of course, your own purpose on this earth as a human being which explains why you would write such a letter which shows the schizophrenic state we as a country have been in for so long.

But it is true as scripture teaches us, that fools are incapable of understanding such things. And, yes, it would do you good to learn who and what God considers a fool.

I was a fool for a very long time just like you, thinking that I made sense based on the standards of this world and my own ideas of what was right, wrong, sane and insane. Back then, no doubt you would have thought that I was sane beacuse I was not much different than you sound, one who based all things on my own moral system of right and wrong.

You probaly judge yourself to be a great person, but my question to you is by what or whose standards?

After slavery was abolished we have since and continue until this present day oppress Blacks in this country through oppressive and unfair laws (our very government). This oppressive behavior can be found in every aspect of the laws in this country including the way funds are distributed in our public education system and how teachers are hired to teach our students.

Laws are even applied differently and unfairly to Blacks when compared to Whites, now these things are facts.

All of you screaming that you never owned any slaves, (notice that I have not claimed all White people) only the types here screaming that they never owned slaves, these ones cannot honestly say that they do not believe that whenever they come up against a Black person in any situation, weather a job, the law, or any other area, in their corrupt hearts, they feel that they should fair better or win because these types cannot see it in their hearts that a Black person is worthy or good enough and certainly not as good or better than they are in any situation. These types will do whatever is necessary, (deceptions, lies, cheating etc…), to make a situation reflect their warped hearts and views that a Black person is not good enough.

These types go through extremes to cause things to appear as they want them to and to reflect their wanted outcomes. These types are truly evil people. Many and most are our supposedly upstanding citizens, they sit on benches, they are on our police forces, in our classroom, workplaces, corporate boardrooms, courthouses, they are everywhere posing as decent people, when in fact they are devil operatives.

It is not just Blacks who experience taunting from such evil people, but they do experience as a group more than any other group in this country just because of the fact of being African American.

Good people must come to the realization of the truth that we do live in an evil world, and it is not just the rapist, child molestors, murderers and robbers who are evil and under the control of Satan.

In fact, crime and evil in a society high when leaders and those in authority in society are corrupt and evil. (Note: this is a biblical truth.

D Walker take a look in the mirror ……..I got your evils of society hanging low

This liberal hyperbole is just base opportunism. An excuse…….nothing more. There is no substance to their argument.

Blacks have had affirmative action, special programs and handouts for generations. Anyone remember race norming? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=race+norming As a race blacks have gone downwards because they sit back and rely/demand handouts. Why is it that Asians move to America not speaking a word of english then win the nation spelling Bees? The Asians usually attend public schools that Blacks can’t get an education from. Because their parents and culture demand an education the kids achieve one. But they know that the way to achieve success in life is through an education. Blacks (as a sterotype race) just want the handouts.
Look at Saint Louis and the Fire Department test. One of the questions is like “A fire hose is 30 feet long and a fire is 90 feet from the hydrant. How many lengths of hose do you need to reach the fire.” This is a racists question according to the Black Fire Fighters union. It’s racists because too many blacks can’t do basic math. So they instead want to be promoted based on “street smarts.”
Generations ago my ancestors owned slaves. We legally bought and sold them, complete with bills of sale. In violation of the Constituion the U.S. government took our property away without payment. So I’m all in favor of repartations for slaves. My family is owed a lot. First is the loss of our legal property. Then the loss of earnings from illegally taking our property. We fed the slaves, bred them and worked them. Nowadays I pay taxes to feed and breed them, but don’t get any work from them.
Affirmative Action is just discrimation for people who won’t put forth the effort to better themselves.

Mr. Joseph, how dare you. Do you not mention the hundreds of thousands of WHITE civl war soldiers that fought and died
to free slaves.

And not mention the great white presidents of the US that put their reelections on the line to speak out against slavery. And the many US ships like the US Constitution that left their families in America to patrol 2500 miles of African shorline to intercept slave trade ships. My great grandfather came home from the civil war (union army) permanently wounded so you could be free. Did you ever bother to look at the Islam/Black Slavery connections; yet black parents name their kids Mohammad (a pedophile), Jamal..etc…and that the young black males are the biggest fastest growing Muslims recruits in the world. You all have come a long from the sixities and you have white conservatives compassionate politicians to thank for it. How ungrateful.

Why don’t you denounce the money grubbing gods like, Jesse Jackson (the adulterer), Al Sharpton, NAACP elite, nappy headed ho rappers, the draft dodging coward Mohammad Ali(Cassias Clay), Black Caucus.etc.. to name a few. Facts: Hispanics commit more violence against blacks and blacks against blacks. Of course fear stops you from speaking out, you might sound too white in the black community.

Get over it and stop stirring up your racist hate. I worked for the government where 95% of the workforce was black. Every time I contact a federal, state or local government agency, a black person answers the phone.

I am a born again Christian; I just wonder if I could start a racist war against the Italians (Roman Empire) for cruxifying Jesus and the disciples or throwing them in the lions den. And I don’t see the Jews discriminating against the Germans today for what they did in the holocaust. The Jews went back to Israel worked their nation and land from a desert wasteland into a virtual garden to make it one of the greatest nations on earth.

Ann S.,

One of the obvious problems with Americans is ignorance about your own history. How is it that you do not even know your own history?

Why is it that you think that the Civil War soldiers fought to free Black slaves? So wrong you are.

Slaves were offered freedom for two sole purposes only and hey were:

1. To weaken the South’s economic state. (Kind of like Ben Laden planned and is accomplishing here in the United States).

2. To strengthen the North’s army, (man power). The North offered slaves freedom in exchange for rebelling against the South, their oppressors and fighting own their side. In addition each male head of a family were offered 40 acres of land for their services.

But, fitting very well with the rest of America’s ugly past, Black were distributed this land only for a short while and the agreement was recinded, the land taken back.

Just another of America’s evil truths concerning Blacks in this country.

Ann S., as one proclaiming to be a born again Christian, you should seriously look into locating someone familiar and experienced in deliverance. I don’t doubt that you desire to be a Christian, but it is apparent that you are tormented by evil spirits.

I have only been posting here for a few months, but one of the things I have noticed is that there really IS a “Liberal Fascism” when it comes to the discussion of race. If you are black, hispanic, or a white liberal, you can pretty well get by with saying just about anything. You can have a “Black Values Statement” for your church and that is just fine with everybody. If it is discovered you belong to church that has a “White Values Statement,” your political career would be over.

Blacks can use the “N” word, the “B” word, or whatever word they want, but if a white uses them, his career is done.

If you criticize Barack Obama, or illegal immigration, you are a racist. You aren’t supposed to notice that Canadians aren’t pouring over their border by the millions. You aren’t supposed to notice that Mexicans are colonizing all of our southwest and will add fifty million to our population in the next couple decades. If you acknowledge that, you are “anti-hispanic.” It is a silly game of political correctness, pushed on us by leftist academia, the media, the Democratic Party machine, hustlers like Sharpton and Jackson and the motley bunch of holier than thou liberal crusaders like the ones posting here. They don’t really want honest discussion of race. It might hurt. They want to have their say and they want a muzzle on everyone else.

Happy Pants:

Is there anything negative or wrong with the below church’s mission statement? well its the mission statement of Trinity United Church of Christ which you have so wrongfully judged. Do people such as you ever check out things for yourselves or do you just prefer being as trusting as sheep, trusting whatever is put out there?

Mission

Mission Statement: What Trinity Is About

Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of “who we are” and “whose we are,” call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!

We are called out to be “a chosen people” that pays no attention to socio-economic or educational backgrounds. We are made up of the highly educated and the uneducated. Our congregation is a combination of the haves and the have-nots; the economically disadvantaged, the under-class, the unemployed and the employable.

The fortunate who are among us combine forces with the less fortunate to become agents of change for God who is not pleased with America’s economic mal-distribution!

W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ.

I’m with #23, Mr. Walker - you need to be evaluated by a trained professional. It’s not healthy to harbor that many delusions and that much hate.

I think the best statement was made by Logus in #22. Short - but it speaks volumes. Slavery was wrong. Affirmative action is wrong. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Before you Christians get too carried away by your righteousness you need to do some historical research. Start with the crusades of the middle ages. Follow with the Spanish inquisitions and the Salem witch trials. Finish up with sanctioned pedophiles in the priesthood or the fire and brimstone abuse of innocent children by fanatic Christian parents.

Then come back and tell the non Christians about the devil. OK?

D. Walker,

I referrenced the United Trinity Church’s “Black VALUES Statement” and you came back asking if I ever “really checked out” their “Black MISSION Statement.” Nice try.

48. Happy Pants,

Under #45, I asked you if you have ever:

1. checked out the MISSION STATEMENT for yourself, not Black Mission Statement.

I also asked you:

2. based on that church’s mission statement, if you found anything negative or wrong with it?

What sense are you making by stating, nice try?

Now, show us all that you do have the basic intelligence of human and try answering the question. Please…..

#47, It is foolish to reject Christ because of people who behave as the Pharisees (hypocrites)as shown to us in the Holy Scriptures and sometimes even worst.

Through staudy of the Scriptures you will learn why there is such evil in our world.

Through study of the Scriptures you would understand know that there are false teachers posing as wise Christian leaders who lead people astray.

If you were familiar and knowledgable of the Holy Scriptures, such evil behavior would not be mind boggling or suprising to you because it is part of man’s evil nature and the influence of Satan in our world.

To go further on the subject would require going into the role of Satan on in this world who is always on the prowl to corrupt and tempt man and all things of God.

You would understand that people who start out with good intentions in following after Christ are at greater risk at becoming corrupted because these are the ones that Satan place alot of energy into taunting because these are the ones that he wants to destroy, these are the ones who do not behave as his tools, but have good intention and genuine desires to follow Christ and do good things on this earth and by other people. Then one day this one does something so destructive and evil that is so totally out of character for that person.

You would also know that just because one proclaim that they follow God/Christ is not necessarily so.

You would learn through study that some of the ones who claim to be Christians are imposters (truly evil people), children of the spiritual devil.

You would understand that you and no one else is responsible for you knowing what God’s word, instructs and the teachings of Christ. Ignorance is no excuse when it is freely available to you.

You and no one else is responsible for your salvation. You that personal responsibility thing that is talked about so much concerning other things?

#46, Nom de Plume. Perfect example of how Satan distort things and uses people as his tools. Or, maybe I am incorrect about you distorting things. Would you please point out to me how anything that I have written are delusions and hate.

D. Walker,

I must be crazy myself to even bother responding to your post. You have yet to make any arguments much less a logical one. The topic is whether giving special treatment to certain races or ethnic groups is moral and logical.

Most of the various posts make the case for or against the preferences and state the reasons for the opinions given. You have yet to state anything vaguely resembling a logic thought on racial preferences. You have merely laid out a bunch of random biblical references and labeled various other posters as evil. To most sane people, this constitutes being severely delusional.

The anger you express in labeling so many people as evil makes me uneasy regarding your mental state. Your comments closely match many who have gone off the deep end. This is why I have questions regarding your mental stability and suggested you get check out by someone qualified to evaluate your mental state.

#50. David H.,

Just how do you suppose that you can have any discussion concerning affirmative action without discussion and the fact of racism.

1. How do you have a discussion covering racism without speaking of about the truth about evil.

2. How do you have a discussion about evil without the truth about Satan in our world?

Just how do you suppose that you can figure out if something is moral as you yourself call it .

You state:
“The topic is whether giving special treatment to certain races or ethic groups is MORAL and logical.”

Tell me David H.,

3. How do speak as to if something is moral or immoral without speaking about how and where you get your moral standards from?

In fact, David H.:

4. How do you determine what your moral standards are or will be?

Obviously, you reject what God teaches us concerning evil through the Holy Scriptures. I determine my moral standards from the Word of God (Holy Scriptures).

Okay, it can be determined based on your statements that because I am a bibilical believing Christian, and that because I determine the Bible to be the Word of God and mankinds moral authority, then according to you, I am insane.

So, David try answering the above four questions and less test your sanity.

“Morality was not defined by G-d; it was the code a given generation of men wanted to live by.”, and standards of absolute good and absolute evil are constantly changing. (Edmond Morris)

D Walker,

People who are deluded rarely know it, and those filled with hate think that it is normal. However, others who read your rants can’t help but shake their heads.

Lets walk through your first post, #8.
Mr. Walker’s 1st and 2nd paragraph:
Everyone who disagrees with you and the letter writer is “in denial of their and America’s evils” and is trying to “justify or redeem White America from guilt”. Also, you completely discount or dismiss African involvement in the slave trade, and say any attempt to point out their involvement is “just plain stupidity” and “very foolish in thinking”

My response:
Calling America evil is not helpful - it’s hateful and wrong. Name any other country in the past 200 years who’s black citizens have done more, invented more, progressed farther than America. There isn’t one. Black progress is synonymous with America. Compare this with Liberia, Haiti, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Sierra Leone, Rwanda, etc. The fact is, if your successful and black – your probably American.

Furthermore, Africans are partly responsible for the slave trade. No, they weren’t trained to do it – they just hate other tribes, so capturing them and selling them into slavery both eliminated an enemy and made them a profit.

Mr. Walker’s 3rd and 4th paragraph:
You lament about “how racist White’s or some are” but then go on to say it’s really not their fault, it’s “Satan at work through indiviuals.” (Spelling error left in place). Then you cite “Rowanda” (miss spelled) and explain that “White Europeans that were used by Satan to stir up the jealousy between the two African tribes”.

My response:
You really should do some research on Rwanda, it would change your world view. In fact, why don’t you look up all of the countries I listed above. It’s very sad reading. No matter what you try and believe, there were no white people around when one tribe was killing hundreds of thousands of another tribe using machetes.

From Mr. Walker’s 5th paragraph:
“Americans make strong claims of being a Christian Nation, ignoring the fact that no Christian Nation (government) could possibly participate in such evils as slavery, murder etc…, if it were a Christian Nation.”

My response:
We now universally recognize the evil that slavery represents. But the Bible? Not a word. It contains passages regulating it, allowing beating and worse – but not ONE passage condemning it. We recognize slavery as evil, but not Because of the Bible – In spite of it.

The rest of Mr Walker’s post:
The conclusion is a rant against America, comparing it to the “Pharisees” and ancient Egypt. Somehow, this segues into an excuse of high crime because “When a governemt is corrupt, the citizens behave dishonestly and corrupt also” (spelling error left in place).
It then FINALLY discusses affirmative action: “Lastly, affirmative action is needed in the United States because sadly we have here due to this country’s ugly past and history, tand present, he demonic spirit of racism”. Then, despite calling for the wrong of Government sponsored racism (affirmative action), it then concludes with a rant saying only God can cure racism – but “churches have one of the most racist histories than any other organization in the United States” (grammatical error left in place).

My Response:
Two wrongs don’t make a right. And churches are one of the best things happening in America, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

-That’s just your first post. -

You have many delusions, and are blinded by hate of the “white man”. I submit that you should stop complaining about problems (real or imagined) and go out and be successful. Lead by example. We could have our first black president soon, it would be sad if despite such unheard of progress, you are still carping about how you are “oppressed”.

#49 I do not expect to partake of your vision of heaven and you can not doom me to your vision of hell. Where you derive your morality is your business, but your religious beliefs are not a necessary prerequisite to a moral life. You might even try applying the golden rule and learning to respect and tolerate those who do not share your religious dogma.

D Walker

You aren’t worth the effort.

#53. Nom de Plume:

Through you we can see how some think humans beings are Gods and decide what is moral and immoral.

In speaking about my 5th paragraph, you state that God through His inspired word (the Holy Scriptures, Bible) never stated anything about slavery being wrong, but we as man decided that it was wrong. You express man as having a higher moral standard than even God concerning the evil of slavery. That is narcissist like behavior. Satan was the most famous narcissist ever, he thought that he was more intelligent than God, he wanted to be God.

Try reviewing this law that were handed down to Moses by God:

Exodus 21:16
“Whoever kidnaps someone, either to sell him or to keep him as a slave, is to be put to death”.

You see, it was not man as you falsely believe, but God who determines that slavery is so evil that it was worthy of punishment by death. You see, believing lies are very dangerous and destructive.

It is a serious problem with God to be unwilling to accept the truth, ALL TRUTH,, even the fact that America is not what it has been made out to be. Most of American History that is taught in our schools are even distortions, but so much of it completely left out and ignored. If accepting and acknowledging truths are Anti-American, then so be it.

But, no one will ever be able to accuse me of being Anti-God or Anti-Christ.

It is so truth what Scripture teaches us that many will parish because of a lack of knowledge of the things that matters most.

Also, we certainly have different opinions about Rowanda, maybe you are studying a version of it as we study concerning our own history.

Also Nom de Plume,

You also have a problem comprehending or it could just be intentional distorted intepretations of what I havestated in my written posts. Many are extremely gifted in distorting situations, truths and causing things to be as they corruptly want them to appear through their written word by distorting.

But my written posts are there and can be seen by all exactly what was stated and covered and discussed, unlike some other situations in life where one cannot defended or correct public forum written distortions.

D. Walker,

I’ve been reading these posts with great interest. I must agree with the majority of the other posters and state that you seem to be almost entirely off your rocker. Correct grammar, spelling and sentence structure, along with rational ideas, would go a long way in getting your argument across. Then again, if you followed my advice, there would be no argument left.

D. Walker,

Affirmative action and any other action that judges a person based on their race or ethnic group is racist. Individuals are moral or immoral based on their own actions not the actions of others who shared the same skin color. I do not judge all blacks based on immoral acts by other blacks. You appear to think people are merely members of groups rather than individuals. Where in the bible do you get the interpretation that people should not be treated as individuals? Where does it say that treating a person as an individual entitled to dignity is evil?

Moral behavior is not using force to make someone do what you want. Forcing people to make decisions based race is the essence of affirmative action. You are correct in that I do not base my moral beliefs are religious dogma. However, your using of the bible to justify your own racism is pretty weak. You are either reading the bible backwards or just listening to those little voices in your head (i.e. delusions).

D Walker,

The passage you cite is anti-kidnapping, not anti-slavery. Did Jesus speak out against Slavery? No. Does the bible have many passages regulating the ownership of slaves? Yes. Despite your desires to the contrary, the Bible is not anti-slavery.

You quoted verse 16 from Exodus 21.Lets look at the rest of that chapter: the first part (vs. 1-11) regulates slave ownership amongst Hebrews. The last part (12-35) is a list of personal injuries and remedies. Here is the part that deals with slavery:

1″These are the laws you are to set before them:
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. [a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

For the sake of brevity, I will just give passages and let you look them up yourself:
Matthew 10:24, John 13:16, Titus 2:9-10, Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22, Deuteronomy 15:12-18, Exodus 21:20-21, 1 Timothy 6:1-2,etc, etc.

The truth is hard to take, but the Bible doesn’t disapprove of slavery - it regulates it. You have modern man to thank for recognizing that slavery -even the regulated slavery advocated in the Bible - is evil. It was your fellow Americans, who despite the many passages in the Bible approving of it, decided that slavery was an absolute evil.

RE #57
Your spelling is poor, your grammar is bad, and your thoughts are disjointed – yes, I do sometimes have a problem understanding your rants.

I will say what I said in the beginning; #23 is probably on to something.

Nom de Plume,

Are you stating that African slaves agreed to be slaves to pay off debts etc…which was approved by God, and where no one was allowed to hold another human being as a slaves more than seven years unless the slave agreed to this?

Are you stating these were the conditions under which slavery existed in the United States?

Why do you have such difficulty in recognizing that the African slaves (Blacks) of America, were slaves under Exodus 21:16 and not any of the scriptures that allow and regulate slavery?

What distortions you are displaying. See, if you would only study scripture with a genuine heart and pure intentions you would understand these things.

Yes, I do make many errors in my writings, If I probably should review it before sending, but I never do, so you will find many mistakes and incorrect grammer because I have no plans of going back through correcting my postings. I am not a good first draft writer by no means.

Nome de Plume,

You state that the passage that I cite is anti-kidnapping and not anti-slavery.

“Whoever kidnaps someone, either to sell him or keep him as a slave, is to be put to death”.

It is the evil that American slavery was regardless of what ever kind of spin that you are attempting to do.

You remind me of those KKK ones you see flashing around the bible and distorting God’s word.

Why is it that you hate God’s truths?

Please stop attempting to distort God’s word.

It is stating that kidnapping and placing into slavery, human beings as how America’s slave trade was is evil, and those who did this were to be put to death.

Michelle, you David H. and Nome de Plume are three peas from the same pod.

So Michelle, exactly what do you think concerning affirmative action, or anything that has been discussed in these posts, other than I am off my rocker, and my poor writings?

Mr. Walker,

Here is what I’m saying about slavery - unlike the Bible, I don’t think slavery is EVER justified. I don’t care what the reason is, I don’t care how well regulated it is – slavery is NEVER moral. I know this is an un-Biblical view – but it’s an American view. Yes, that’s right. The same America you call evil, corrupt, immoral – they finally overcame the Biblical teachings that slavery can be acceptable.

PS – It looks like you at least ran that last post through a spell checker – thank you.

Mr. Walker,

#63 was written in response to you post at #61. Your post at #62 is just hate filled, and unworthy of a response.

To FINALLY get back on topic, affirmative action is state sponsored racism. Like I said in my first (short) post, #22 summed it up nicely. Slavery was wrong. Affirmative action is wrong. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

D. Walker,

Thank you for including me is such distinguished company. The three of us are all against slavery and racism as well as harboring suspicions regarding you underlying mental condition.

Nome de Plume,

See, there you go again replacing your moral standard for God’s moral standards, while distorting His Word.

Your opinion is that any slavery of any kind is wrong, that is not what God’s Word say, that’s what you yourself think and say.

The bible nor doesGod say that slavery (servants) when it is agreed on between the parties to pay off a debt or for payment of keep is wrong or evil. God’s view that forced slavery as was done to the Hebrews and kidnaping human beings for the purpose of enslaving then is evil.

Such as Isaac’s father-in-law Laban in Genesis chapters, 29-31, requiring Jacob to work off the payment required for his daughter in marriage. He worked as Labens servant for seven years.

Force slavery as was practiced by the Egypt when Egypt held the jews in forced slavery is evil.

God’s view is that slavery as was known in America is evil, not having servants, same thing as slaves.

God did not view all slavery (having servants) as evil. It was regulated and no man woman or child could be held as servants (in slavery) more than seven years iregardless of if that was enough time to pay off any debt. One could agreed to continue to be a slave if that is what was desired and agreed on between both parties of the agreement.

By the way, thanks for the compliment, by actually I just got lucky that time. I did not use spell check.

D. Walker,

I believe slavery was an atrocity. I also believe what was done to the native Americans (my grandmother was 100% Cherokee, by the way) was an atrocity. I believe affirmative action does nothing to correct those wrongs, nor the multitude of other wrongs committed by our forefathers. Affirmative action is discriminatory. Discrimination is wrong. Period. End of story.

#66 D Walker,

Did you just make a Pro-Slavery argument?!!??!!
My jaw is agape. This is America, we don’t allow ANY slavery. I don’t care who’s in debt to who, who’s selling whom -slavery is NEVER moral!

OK – my mind is officially blown. I’m out.

Good luck and Good Night.

Hey John,

Nice letter, but since my ancestors were essentially serfs in eastern Europe at the time of slavery in the Uniited States, I feel that as a Polish-American I owe absolutely nothing to the black man.

So Michelle how do you suppose that we deal with discrimination. Certainly, you do acknowledge that workplace and other forms of discrimination is still very present in our society and institutions, unequal and unjust treatment based on one’s race. How do you suggest that we deal with it.

It must be dealt with in some form. How do you suppose it be?

D. Walker,

I see discrimination in the workplace. I see discrimination based on age. I see discrimination based on gender. I see discrimination based on sexual orientation. You carry on as though race discrimination is the end-all-be-all of discrimination problems in the United States. You know how I deal with the discrimination I face? I educate myself. I work my tail off. I earn the respect of my peers and my superiors. I don’t, however, expect to be handed a special opportunity solely based on anything other than my merit.

I understand.

But, imagine for a second if you will, being Black and discriminated against just because you are Black, but inaddition to that you face all these other same discriminations you mention. Because all Blacks experience these same discriminations you speak about in addition to discrimination because of being Black.

And, I certainly hope that you are not stating that Blacks who do not work their butts off and are not educated oriented? As you put it yourself, you deal with discrimination by educating yourself, working your tail off, and earning the respect of your peers. Isn’t great that you can say this actually work for you.

See when discrimination is in play, there isn’t a damn thing a Black person can do in the way of the right education or work ethic to earn the respect of their peers or to be hired or even considered for anything. Now, you know this.

There are many companies such as UHC here in St. Louis where, if you are African American, better educated, have more knowledge, do the best job, have better mangement skills, just plain more qualified than your White counter parts if you are African American at UHC you WILL NOT be advanced. Point blank.

I think that affirmative action programs should be in place only in government funded businesses or government jobs, or any other place that benefit from taxpayer dollars.

Under no circumstances do I feel that private businesses that do not recieve government funding or taxpayer dollars should be required to have in palce some kind of affirmative action program.

I do feel however that affirmative action as we know it should be changed but, there must be in place some type of program to equal and keep the playing field fair and equal for minorities because, the hearts of man will not do whats right.

For this same reason is the reason laws are needed in society. Good righteous people do not need laws, they do the right things. Laws are for the unjust and lawless people who you cannot be trusted to do the right things without laws in place.

Michelle:

I must correct last sentence in paragraph 2. Should read :

Isn’t it great that you can say this actually work for you?

#65, David H.,

Now, why don’t you try answering the four (4) questions posed to you under #51. I get it, you think I am insane. Okay, let’s see where you are really coming from.

Can you not anwser the questions? Boy, you are in big trouble, a really poor condition if you can’t answer those questions posed.

Is it that you do think you are able to hide your true state if you avoid answering the questions?

Try answering them so you yourself can see in writing your state of existence. Not to mention that I can’t wait to read your answers.

Wonder if you are someone making important decisions in the lives of others, or even making life changing decisions regarding others?

D. Walker,

I have already responded to the rambling incoherent nonsense you consider questions. It is obvious that you have no clue as to the point made in my posts or those of the others on this site. You even got yourself so worked up that you appeared to be making the case for slavery.

This exchange with you reminds me of the old axiom of never arguing with a crazy person. I made the mistake of trying to reason with you as a person who uses logic to reach a conclusion. All you do is respond with a bunch on emotional garbage. Why don’t you read some of the above posts and try to understand what the writers are actually saying.

David H.,

The 4 questions posed in posting #51to you due to you reminding me that the topic questions were if affirmative action was MORAL or logical.

You are incorrect; you did not answer any of the questions. You posted next at #59 not answering.

I have rewritten them to be more coherent, actually editing something before I post it.
The question again are:

1. How do you have a discussion regarding racism without speaking about evil, which it is?

2. How do you discuss evil without discussing the fact of Satan in the world? If there were no Satan there would be no evil.

3. One cannot discuss morals unless one come to some agreement of what morals are. How do you determine what is moral or immoral?

4. By what authority do you determine what your moral standards will be?

You also accused me of not thinking people should be treated as individuals. Yes people should be treated as individuals, the problem however is that people and institutions that discriminate do not understand this. They inflict their oppressive discriminatory practices upon individuals based on groups (race) like here in America in regards to Blacks, but other minority groups also. White America is now being hateful towards Hispanics, Hispanic American citizens right along with illegal Hispanics; are being despised as a hole. Now, that is evil.

In the earlier times in Egypt, the Hebrew were discriminated against as a group. can you imagine how the citizens of some of these countries felt when all those Hebrews showed up to camp out? That is why you will be hard pressed to find a Jewish person to feel this dispisment towards Mexicans.

They remember God’s instruction: “Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner; remember that you were foreigners in Egypt”.

Race or some type of discrimination is in just about every society in our world, but God still sees it as evil no matter where it is. The main point concerning America is, America’s claim to fame is, it poses itself as a Christian Nation. If true, then America should not be able to stomach all the evil found in our government.

You and others who share your view regarding affirmative action act as if you are blind to the fact that discrimination against Blacks exists in America in just about every facet of America’s business and government and society.

In fact, destroying affirmative action was one of the reasons you people voted for Bush and the Conservative ticket. As thought, it were reversed discrimination and so unfair to present White America.

Now look at where that got us all, IN A MUCH WORST STATE. You see, you got Bush and the Conservatives. They did your bidding in every facet of White America, (institutions, government, corporations, the Justice Department, etc…). Discriminatory practices became out of control. But, all of the discriminatory ones were protected. You ones began and wanted to undo every thing that America had done to attempt to level the playing field that was completely unjust and that was in its present state due to discrimination and inequality in this country.

We do have a supreme being God, and He does not like evil. For some reason this country that claim to be a Christian Nation do not believe in God and certainly not Christ. We cannot behave as if we are a god to ourselves and others without any repercussions because we do have a God who when He decides to strike nothing can stop it, and He has never stopped a disaster from hitting a country and destroying it unless that country’s leader has the right heart and that country’s people are willing to turn their eyes to Him and repent and began doing right.

.

“And, I certainly hope that you are not stating that Blacks who do not work their butts off and are not educated oriented?”

No, that wasn’t my implication. But since you brought it up, people who EXPECT handouts of any kind, regardless of their race, generally DO NOT work their butts off, nor do they strive to educate themselves.

My point, and I believe this has already been stated by someone else, is that affirmative action is wrong. Affirmative action discriminates. Discrimination is wrong. From those two statements, which nobody has refuted, we can infer that affirmative action is wrong.

Affirmation action is not wrong due the the FACT that White America (too many White’s in power)in the workplace and our government (White citizens) do not possess the right hearts, a heart that is capable of being fair and unbiased towards African Americans. Mainly those who are screaming that one should judge the individual. I find these ones to be the most racist people, them them it is just lingo and sounds good, and right but far from their own hearts.

Too many just can’t find it in their hearts to see a competent and intelligent Black person when one is standing or sitting before them. They cannot see much pass a Black persons skin color no matter how awsome that Black person is. Too many cannot see promoting a Black person over a White person and have the attitude that it is not appropriate for a Black person to supervise or manage a White person. To many White’s have this distorted view of Blacks, their minds are corrupted. To these ones they can tolerate Blacks only when they are in a place, job or position that they can tolerate and have decided in their distorted minds are appropriate.

Unracist White people and those truly righteous White people freely admit this and refuse to wear blinders in the area of racism. But, they too are guilty because they need to speak out instead of being afraid to step up to the plate regarding discrimination for fear that they will lose something, which usually they do because then they will began to be treated as if they were Black, but I tell you, it will be only for a while because God will reward you for doing right.

How dare any White person to pretend they do not realize this serious discrimination in America. Most need not go any further than their own dinner table or a friends dinner table to see the hearts of White people towards Blacks. Well your family and your friend’s dinner tables are a good example of every facet of America in the area of race relations.

Michelle I would go so for to say that even you do not have the right heart in this area. Everytime a qualified Black person would appear before you, in your mental state, you would assume that the person was only qualified because he had received some type of handout is the reason he was before you, and you base on that distorted view would not hire, consider or promote.

Americans have this problem of lying to themselves and believing these lies. That is the state this country has been in for way too long.

Thank God, so many are waking up and attempting to turn the hearts the right way in this area. People better because there is always a price to pay and I don’t think America is wanting to pay that price, but we are heading in that direction. We must turn away from our corrupt hearts in every area of this corrupted government, including race issues.

But all, no matter Black or White and everything in between must replace all their wrong thoughts about who the are and replace them with the right thoughts and truths concerning who we are according to the revelations of God. We all have been mentally conditioned with distortions and lies and is the reason for the state we are in in this country. White’s distorted view is that they are superior, Blacks distorted view is that they are inferior to White’s. This is the reason for all the social and economic race problems that we see in this Country. Breaking away from this intentional mental conditioning by the White power structure in this country will not and is not easy, but it must be done if this country is to have any hope at all of surviving.

All need to stop following the Master of distortions. Hell, most of the American History we learn are distortions. Sad, sad state for a country to be in and not even recognize it. Just look at how the Fourth of July is celebrated in this country based on all the lies and distortions White America have made up and have made themselves believe as true.

D.Walker, you have stated you will vote for Obama……what if it turns out he’s gay with your God fearing back-round do you still vote for Obama ?

D. Walker,

You are judging me, and all other white people, based on race. By definition, that is prejudice… also generally referred to as racism. And since you’ve made the argument that racists wear blinders, I will just bow out of this pointless argument now, because obviously you, as a racist, cannot be swayed.

Michelle,

Please spare me the poor attempt by you to distort me as the racist. Why is it that almost all racist do this same thing as you have done? See how ones like you distort the truth, but no doubt you probably don’t because you choose to stay in that dark place?

Willi,

Due to the reports of many other woman that Obama has had in his life before he met Mrs. Obama, wouldn’t that had made him an ex-bi-sexual?

But if true, wouldn’t it be more likely that he use to be…..just as most obedient Christians use to be…….. (something) that was not God’s intent for a Christian.

I will not, NOT vote for anyone based on rumors, or dignify such with an answer.

Rumors are just as evil as racism.

D. Walker,

No distortion is necessary. It’s obvious. Why don’t you get a clue?

D.Walker gay men have straight sex all the time doesn’t make him anyless gay I’m still voting for him, his sexual prefeance is his buisness. But you did answer my question you’d feed him to the wolves.

Willi,

If it is true that you are truly voting for Obama and, if it is true that one’s sexual preference does not matter, then why would you be part of participating in the evil of spreading such a rumor about your choosen candidate?

See, how busy and at work the devil operatives are at this time? Busy, busy lttle demon bees, aren’t you?

Michelle,

Yes, there are alot of obvious, but also transparent things that blind people cannot see.

Who said anything about rumors you sound like the church lady on SNL,…….COULD IT BE SATAN…….LOL

I love the church lady from SNL.

To those of you debating with D. Walker, give up. It has been said before. Don’t wrestle with a pig. The pig enjoys it and you just get dirty.

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