As much as I agree w/ you Joe - that we ought to stop this bailout (or really wealth redistribution) - I would think the automakers would run for their life from it. Just look at the reaction from their flying in on corp-jets to mooch money from us. If we own them, why stop at what jet they all use? I’m not sure I approve of the price of their shoes. Come to think of it, maybe I don’t approve of yellow cars.

They want to sell their soul (read whore out their company), they deserve to rot, and fast!

We should have let all these companies go belly up. Talk about “spreading the wealth,” these corporate fat cats need to take a major pay cut if the companies are failing. So much for capitalism.

How about the automakers take care of their own problems. The execs need some huge cuts and the union members too. Why is it my problem to take care of a private company? Every company needs to work out their own problems. This is so ridiculous and so easy to fix. I want to see everyone involved in their own company work to help their own company survive! Not Joe tax payer!

Quoting David Brooks (NYT) from a couple of days age, “It is all a reminder that the biggest threat to a healthy economy is not the socialists of campaign lore. It’s C.E.O.’s. It’s politically powerful crony capitalists who use their influence to create a stagnant corporate welfare state.”

We should help the working families that will bear the brunt of the American auto industry’s failures however not one dime should go towards giving life support to the poorly managed companies themselves.

We owe them nothing. Help those that will lose their jobs but let the companies go down the tube.

Be careful what you wish for. Do I want a blank check without Chapter 11, NO. Do I want Chapter 7 for the automakers, NO. That would absolutely devastating to a lot of American Workers. I want a implicit guarantee that GM or Ford won’t be liquidated. This can be down without the ridiculus circus yesterday.

Finally, Rick Wagoner’s the CEO of GM salary dropped to 3.5 million. How many ballplayers in the Cards organization get that? How many of us run a world wid organization employing hundreds of thousands? Knocking down these CEO’s shows just as much ignorance of the situation on our parts.

It is getting confusing and perhaps shows one more time how inept the Bush administration can become. The Secretary of Treasury rushes out and says he needs X number of dollars and he needs it now. He also tells us how he intends to use it. When congress goes along and provides the funds the Secretary then changes his mind as to how to use the money. Now he says that he does not need all the money right now and will use less than half of it, leaving the rest for the next administration. Remember just one month earlier if he did not get all the money and get it now there would be serious problems.

At the same time while they have no idea what to do with the remainder of the $700 billion Paulson has said that the money cannot be used to help with the credit card crunch of the average person. He also says that the money cannot be used help the auto industry.

Yet with $350 billion dollars allocated and sitting unused, Bush has suddenly become a fiscal conservative. According to him it would not be fiscally wise to offer an extension of unemployment benefits, which would go to the average person. This despite unemployment jumping to a 16 year high, which was also when a Bush was President.

The Dow is down below 8000 and in 3 months the Nasdaq fell from about 2600 to almost 1300. This has pointed out that investors have lost confidence in the American economy.

What is going on at this time is just highlighting how inept the Bush administration has been.

Just an update. In an earlier posting I said Bush does not support an extension of the unemployment benefits. He now says that he will. Evidently a jump to a 16 year high unemployment has moved him some.

Hey, did anyone hear how those great paragons of society, the UAW execs showed up? That’s right, in private jets.

The pensions should never have been granted - it would have been better to have the plants close than to have given in to the UAW. Holding current execs responsible for terrible decisions made 20-30 years ago is ridiculous. That being said, they certainly don’t have a plan to go forward with.

Here it is - the pensions have to go while in Chapter 11. Offer reasonable buyouts to discharge the obligation as best the auto makers can but let them and the UAW know the country believes in freedom and accountability so it will not subsidize their past excesses.

The GOP sure didn’t mind bailing out their bank executives….Go figure?

bob—-blow it out your liberal ass

jvqb

First of all I do not think that many people would defend the executives of the UAW. With that said to try and lay the blame on the UAW is ridiculous. Yes there are excesses by the workers, i.e. some to lazy to do their job. Also one of the problems unions run into is when they are established to defend the worker that means they must also defend the bad worker.

Next the UAW probably have gotten to much from the car companies. However, it was the decision of the executives of the car companies to cave in to their demands rather than risk a strike. When the UAW got much of what they have today the Big 3 were really the Big 3. The executives were raking in the money like there was no tomorrow. They did not want a strike for that would effect that years bottom line and that would effect their bonuses. The executives thus found it cheaper for them to give the UAW what was asked for, and why was that? It was cheaper to give in because by the time the price tag came around the executives would have gotten their bonus and turned the company over to someone else. So the executives saw no reason to fight the UAW.

If you were working for a company and you told them you would refuse to work unless they doubled your salary and gave you a big retirement plan, would you have turned it down? I doubt it, even if it made little since for the company. There were times the UAW went into negotiations with demands they really did not think that they would get, but they wanted to start high and then come down. The companies gave in with only minor adjustments, because the executives were more worried about their bonuses (my opinion for I am sure they would give other reasons).

Now you say give the retirement a reasonable buy out. What are you calling reasonable? Something reasonable for a retired 80 year old is very different than that of a retired 65 year old. This is especially true if you have been told for 30 years that when you retire you will have X number of dollars coming to you each month. So for 30 years you built a life style built around the idea that you would have this income. Now you say that the life style must change when it is to late for the retired worker to find an alternative income to supplement their retirement.

It is inevitable that something will happen and there will be pain. With no bailout one or two of the companies will go into chapter 11. Plants will close and people will lose their income. Others will work for less and pay more for their insurance, and some who are further from retirement will be offered a smaller retirement package.

But that is not the end. When plants close there are many non UAW workers who will lose their jobs and businesses. Around each plant businesses sprung up to service the people working at the plants. Those people will lose their jobs as there will no longer be people from the plant stopping at the small business to buy gas or lunch, etc. A good example is when ENRON went under. Almost every small business within 5 blocks of ENRONS HQ went under. One floral shop had received 80% of its business from ENRON or ENRON employee’s. The same can be said though if a plant stays open but the workers must take a pay cut. They no longer have the money to go out to lunch or stop for a beer after work. So when we talk about the big 3 or the UAW, any decision that effects them will effect many small businesses as well.

tick

Thank you for that extensive explanation of the financial situation.

Obviously you believe the Bush administration has taken dynamic steps to address the problems.

It is obvious that you are a deep thinker with a limited vocabulary. With people like you supporting Bush, it no longer is a wonder why we are in the situation we are in. Thank you from your far right position

One thing is certain. The Chinese will be thrilled by the Feds expanding our national debt to bail out the big three and UAW. They are already making a killing on the interest we pay them for past government excesses.

You’re right on target, Joe… And on top of it, Congress is `acting’ like they’re holding these guys feet to the fire. But, I guarantee, it’s just posturing. The American public should not let itself be hoodwinked again. It’s time for the public to stand up.

Tick… You should be booted from the site for that type of comment. That’s completedly uncalled for, but it is a great snapshot of your mental capacity.

EJ Rotert

Don’t believe in the freedom of speech out there in Pacific? I know you all are backwards out there, but you still have the First Amenedment.

A#

I am not convinced the Chinese are going to buy the debt, I think we are just printing the money. China has had significant factory closings, their stock market has dropped to an extent that it makes ours look good, they have their own bail out program, and they still have to pay to rebuild from the earthquakes earlier this year.

Which if all we are doing is printing once out of the nose dive we are in we could be facing hyper inflation such has had happened in the late 70’s and early 80’s.

EJ Rotert

Tick has a right to express himself as he wishes.

During the election we have said that the right wing is void of idea’s. The fact that all tick could say was to “blow it out” of part of my body just confirms what has been said.

It is a sorry idea that in these trying times that a member of the right cannot come up with a reasoned argument for his view point. With a void of ideas it confirms that the side that won was the correct side.

Where is Obamamessiah in all this? Is he busy swimming? Where is the vaunted leadership that he displayed as Community Organizer, when he ended all crime/poverty/racial divisions/teen pregnancy/rainy days/injustice in Chicago? where is the vaunted leadership dispayed when he and Bill Ayers ran the Chicago Annenberg Challenge and educated every Chicago child and made them Oxford material? Where is the leadership that got a $100,000.00 gazebo built in a park? Where is his pick for treasury Secretary? A good pick for treasury could go a long way to calming the markets. Have Obamamessiah and his Obamabots forgotten that they won complete control over every single aspect of government, or are they clinically unable to do anything but bash Bush?

tim jones

And what would you have Obama do? Can he sign a bill? Can his choice of Treasury Secretary allocate the $700 billion? By the way you are right he has not appointed one, but if he does it by December 1 it will be one of the quickest picks ever of a Treasury Secretary.

Perhaps you would have him start negotiations with foreign nations and their financial ministers? The forum they had last week did have representatives from Obama, but they held no official status.

So if Obama did start talking to congress and did start allocating funds, you then would not be yelling that he was overstepping his authority.

He has said that when he takes office he would do what it takes to get the economy going. He has sent representatives to the forums where the nations leaders come together to discuss the issues. He does this not because he wants to act like he already is President but so he is aware of what is being said and negotiated. He is choosing his Treasury Secretary once again if chosen by December 1 would be one of the quickest selections. He has endorsed loans to the Big 3. He has talked about grants to the states for repairing roads etc, both to repair the roads and to create jobs.

This is a person who realizes that he has no official authority at the moment. He also is trying to stay abreast of the situation. He is also working to put together a government that will take office in about 8 weeks.

He also realizes that Bush could shake off the lethargy and make agreements and allocations that he would then have to live with.

So tell us exactly what you think Obama should be doing know that he is not doing.

Tim Jones

My apologies. I read your posting a bit closer. You said “Have Obamamessiah and his Obamabots forgotten that they won complete control over every single aspect of government, or are they clinically unable to do anything but bash Bush”.

I never took into consideration that you have no grasp of the Constitution. Obama has won the right to take control of the Executive Branch at noon on January 20. By your posting you evidently thought that Bush has left office for you do not realize he is still in control of the government.

Now that we understand that you do not understand the Constitution we all can take your answers with a new understanding of your postings.

Well, Tick, at least I can spell the First Amendment. But anytime you want to debate any ideas, just bring it on. Besides, I wasn’t the one talking like a jerkwater cretin — it was you.

EJ Rotert

You need to go back to a different thread and check your spelling. You are not Mr. Perfect, even though you believe you are.

tim jones,

If only Bush would resign and if only Obama could take over IMMEDIATELY. Shouts of joy would be heard throught this country. The world itself is anxiously awaiting the departure of your boy, G.W.Bush. I too feel your pain. We all want Obama to take over now. The sad news I must break to you however is that you like the rest of the world, must bide you time.

True… Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone needs an editor. But I particularly make sure I don’t make a mistake when I’m calling someone else on the carpet. Comprende?

Or, if I do make a mistake, I correct it myself. I don’t let others do the work. But that is a conservative, Republican trait: letting others do the work.

Republican elephant got your tongue, Tick?