Right you are Don. But I’d add, what if our government’s business was limited to: defense, police, courts and support (congress / exec / judicial)? As it now is, there are simply no boundaries to what they will forbid, mandate, subsidize or tax.

The only problem with this suggestion is that it assumes the workers can retire at the age of 48. By theory that is true, if everything falls perfectly, i.e. they do not lose anytime during layoffs or other work shut downs.

I have known several UAW workers some now have retired. None were able to retire at the age of 48 and most retired in their late 50’s. Some retired in their mid 50’s due to company buyouts.

People have a tendency to look at the right to retire at the age of 48 without understanding that it would require the perfect world to match their expectations.

Bob:

“The only problem with this suggestion is that it assumes the workers can retire at the age of 48. By theory that is true, if everything falls perfectly, i.e. they do not lose anytime during layoffs or other work shut downs.”

This is not theory Bob, my son was hired at Chrysler immediately out of high school, put in his 30 years including nearly 3 years of layoff while he collected more than 100 percent of his pay because of SUB Pay and TRA/TAA, generous government programs to provide for jobs lost to foreign competition and available to auto assemblers but not to the people who made the parts to be assembled. He retired with full benefits 4 years ago at 48, not theory, FACT! He was later required to refund the SUB Pay from lay-off to the union at a small amount per week.

I know he isn’t representative of every United Auto Worker there are exceptions but these are the contract benefits. There are far more in this position than you will admit.

I do not know enough about early retirement of UAW to respond. However, I would like to address “what ifs”?

What if we did have a “Canadian style” universal health care system (such as the proposed Medicare for All proposal-HB 676). Everyone in America would have health care and business would have saved trillions of dollars in those “legacy” costs which many are touting as crippling the auto industry and other companies. By the way, many of those nations are not doing this for any other reason than price control of out of control medical costs.

What if the CEOS and top executives had not raped the companies since Regan times with excessive perks, golden parachutes and pay? Trillions of dollars would have been available to those businesses and thus some would not be in such poor shape today.

No one believes that the UAW are angels floating on clouds playing harps, but then again they are not the main problem.

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I have known at least 5 UAW workers, I admit that is not has many has your son. None qualified for retirement at 48. Believe me if they could have retired at 48 with all the benefits that they claim then these people would have retired.

garyo

Here is another “what if”. Many people claim that the CEO’s made poor decisions because the stock holders demanded bigger profits. “What if” stock holders demanded reasonable profits and were not just looking at their stock portfolio. We want to blame the workers and management, but if pressure comes for larger profits we have to look at the demands of the stock holders.

Here is something else to consider. I was working with some EDS people when GM bought EDS and several other companies. I remember the CEO of GM saying that they looked at their check book and found billions in it so they thought they would spend it. The bottom line is the CEO’s had the money and time to fix their problems. Instead they spent it looking for short term profits then ran their new companies into the ground because they did not understand that computer companies did not work on the same principal as car companies. So GM management ruined more than one company during its tenure.

garyro:

“However, I would like to address “what ifs”?

What if we did have a “Canadian style” universal health care system (such as the proposed Medicare for All proposal-HB 676). Everyone in America would have health care and business would have saved trillions of dollars in those “legacy” costs which many are touting as crippling the auto industry and other companies. By the way, many of those nations are not doing this for any other reason than price control of out of control medical costs.”

You’re making a serious mistake if you think “legacy costs” are only health care costs. They’re a component and an expensive one but less than 20 percent of the cost of early retirement for auto assemblers. General Motors has a 4:1 retiree or spouse to each worker and the ratio will only get worse with current car sales and forced buy outs required to reduce force.

Medicare or equivalent single payer health care programs will not solve the problem of nearly 50 million currently uninsured being herded into doctors offices and hospitals because all of a sudden, there’s money from somewhere to “insure” them. I have a solution for you and all the proponents of universal health care, join in with the group that doesn’t have health care now and you can stand in the same lines waiting for your turn to be served.

“What if the CEOS and top executives had not raped the companies since Regan times with excessive perks, golden parachutes and pay? Trillions of dollars would have been available to those businesses and thus some would not be in such poor shape today.”

A few top executives wallowed in the lap of luxury, requiring attendants to empty their silver drool cups but that didn’t cost trillions. Top labor leaders enjoy the same perks, do you cry yourself to sleep at night thinking about that too? And, just how many “top executives” do you think a corporation has?

“No one believes that the UAW are angels floating on clouds playing harps, but then again they are not the main problem.”

Management has screwed up badly in contract negotiations, caving into union greed and soaking the customers with years of “sticker shock” to maintain “market share” which is very much like Social Security. It works fine as long as there is steadily increasing production or loan terms can be increased from 3 to 4 to 5 or 6 years, until … a credit crunch kicks the slats from under the whole stinking mess.

It sounds like Don Hart is one of many “experts” on the auto industry that has never set foot in an auto plant. The sad fact is his knowledge auto industry economics is equally bare. Just for entertainment sake it would be interesting if he assumes that the benevolent corporations would give the workers a “fair share” during good times and bad without a union contract? If we can use history as a guide the answer is clearly - NO! As a matter of fact we can look no further than the vehicles made in Mexico for a reality check Can you tell the difference in sticker price at your local dealer? Coincidentally, the general economy of Mexico reflects the fact that workers are underpaid and unable to create more local jobs, fund local schools, and live a dignified life due to the expoitation of their labor. All of this so more profit may be made by the corporation. I assume Mr. Hart is an enthusiastic supporter of the Wall St. bailout since he is evidently in favor of cutting the living standards of middle class people so that the wealthy can receive just a little more wealth from the efforts of workers.

Dan:

“I assume Mr. Hart is an enthusiastic supporter of the Wall St. bailout since he is evidently in favor of cutting the living standards of middle class people so that the wealthy can receive just a little more wealth from the efforts of workers.”

Your assumptions are wrong, it was a necessary evil to bail out dimwits who squandered other people’s money buying worthless paper and paying themselves huge salaries and bonuses based on the original phony valuations.

I have no problems with the living standards of the middle class or auto workers in general. My problems are with the legalized extortion of a labor monopoly and the privileged few with a highly developed sense of entitlement who keep all the goodies for themselves instead of sharing time on the automobile assembly line with those earning substantially less wages and fringe benefits, like a coal miner, gandy dancer or a sand hog that take food out of their children’s mouth to make payments on overpriced cars to provide those “living standards.” Let everybody take a year at a time earning the benefits of a “middle class” United Auto Worker.

Why should middle class be the exclusive province of an extensively trained lug nut tightener or highly skilled (?) driver moving a car from the end of the assembly line to the parking lot?

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Morning.

I see from your post that you do not know very much about “union” pay packages by claiming that unions “extort” cash and benefits from poor management. In most contract negoations, management has a superior hand at the table
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Indeed, the overpayment of the top executives from Ronald Regan times to now is in the trillion dollar range. An early retiree would have had to go to work about mid Regan times and I doubt any on the million dollar pay scale.

In 1987, CEO pay was about a million dollars average a year or so for those companies listed on the S%P. Last year the amount was $14.2 million which was 350 to one to the average worker. Incidentally, this amount was 22 times the European CEO average and 17 time that of Japanese Ceo. Really think those folks worth that sort of cash? Think that added up over the period of 20 years or so that the combined “overpayment” of top executives does not equal trillion (especially if one includes numerous “golden parachute deals”? I think it does and that does not count perks.

GM had 9 top executives paid $3 million last year. Ford the same. Others most likely simular. I hardly believe any organized labor folks making even a good fraction of this. I believe UAW president made $160k in 06 not counting any perks. His pay came from union dues and not company. UAW by the way pays top scale to its leader as does the Steelworkers and other major unions. Middle class compensation.

What is wrong with workers recieving fair wages and benefits?

Now, if we both agree that execs overpaid, then legacy costs.

Health care/legacy cost next post