Well put! Although, I am a little disheartened that this Dr. is getting more coverage than the slain Army recruiter.

If this president was shocked and outraged by partial birth abortions, he would not have twice voted to deny medical care to the children spunky enough to survive the attempted murder.

Just heard the report that Tiller the baby killer, killed 60,000 babies in 35 years.

To bad the laws didn’t get him 35 years ago.

Perhaps Scott Roeder (the man accused of the murder of Dr. Tiller) is the sort of single-issue, fanatical, right-wing, extremist, potential home-grown terrorist that Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano tried to warn us about… and conservatives skewered her for it. And to think, this entire incident could’ve been avoided had all the parishioners brought their pieces to worship. Sometimes I’m glad I’m Jewish.

This morning when I got up Foxnews.com was featuring an OReilly piece where Bill’s producer stalked Tiller, confronted him in a gas station, and Tiller had to call the police for assistance. As if to give instructions on how to confront him.

Then, OReilly defended the stalking…

Sad

I think Fox finally removed it

doubtingthomas: If this president was shocked and outraged by partial birth abortions, he would not have twice voted to deny medical care to the children spunky enough to survive the attempted murder.

Here’s the truth…

such protection was already on the books as Illinois state law.

(LINK) Fight the Smears
The attackers torture and twist logic and history by willfully misinterpreting votes by Barack Obama in the Illinois State Senate to come up with their wild accusation.

Here’s the truth about Barack Obama and the bill:

– At the time Barack voted against a bill containing language designed to protect infants who were “born alive,” such protection was already on the books as Illinois state law.[1]

– The accusations against Barack are so reckless that not even the Republican state senator who sponsored the bill will support them. In fact, he freely admits that “None of those who voted against SB-1082 favored infanticide.”[2]

– The bill was opposed by many legislators and groups like the Illinois Medical Society because of the unintended impact it would have had on other laws and legal precedents in Illinois.[3]

– Barack is on the record[3] saying that he would have supported a similar bill that came up in Congress — but that didn’t pose a threat to a woman’s right to choose the way the Illinois bill did.[4]

Don Berra, budb, doubtingthomas, and magnum,
So if your wife was pregnant and her life was at risk, you would prefer that she die rather than have an abortion? And you believe that no woman should have the option of abortion to save her life? She should always die?

Lisa, queen of stats, your link to an Obama campaign web site is kind of pointless, of course he says he doesnt support infanticide, not that that position would effect your opinion of him. He did, in fact, vote against a bill that would provide medical care to those babies who survived an abortion. The bill he references applies ONLY to babies who were intended to be live birthed, not those who survived an abortion.

Next you bring up the straw man “what if it was your wife who was dying”, show us the stats on how many women have abortions due to life threatening situations.

http://www.rawstory.com/exclusives/avery/partial_birth_abortion_feel_good_bad_831.htm
[Partial Birth Abortion] was developed as an alternative to an older, more ghastly procedure: dilation and evacuation. This is when the mother is partially dilated and some sort of grasping tool is used to pull the fetus out—piece by piece.

This procedure is somewhat dangerous to the mother, though, as bones begin to calcify at about 13 weeks gestation (24 weeks is the legal point of viability, at which time states are allowed to limit abortion rights), and shards or even entire body parts can be accidentally left in the uterus after the fetus is dismembered inside, causing infection and other injury.

Partial-birth abortions account for less than 0.2 percent of all abortions in the United States. Of those, most are performed at 20-24 weeks of gestation, or late into the second trimester but within the Supreme Court’s time frame. A study conducted in 1996 could only locate two cases of “partial birth abortion” performed after 24 weeks in that year in the United States.

Of those performed, the reasons most commonly given (although again I emphasize that statistics are very difficult to come by) were:

*The fetus had died late in development, and delivering it through natural means would have harmed the mother both physically and psychologically. (This type of procedure is not prohibited under the ban, but accounts for many, and possibly a majority, of the procedures included in statistics.)

*The fetus suffered from anencephaly, meaning that while it would carry to term, it would not have developed most of its brain. If not still born, such a child will usually die less than five days after birth. This defect is not usually discovered until late into the second trimester, when a partial birth or dilation and evacuation are the only options. The ban then leaves mothers with a choice between dilation and evacuation, or giving birth to their brainless child, then watching it die.

*The fetus developed a severe case of hydrocephalus, a swelling of the skull (due to a flooding of cerebrospinal fluid around the brain) which in extreme cases makes it impossible to pass through the birth canal. Many (about one in 500 American children) suffer from milder cases of the disease, but the ban does not make exceptions for cases wherein the mother would suffer permanent debilitating injury (swelling can go up to 250 percent normal size), only to give birth to a hopelessly brain-damaged, if not stillborn, infant. I think it would be interesting to see how Congressmen would feel about their wives or daughters being permanently handicapped in order to go through the trauma of giving birth to a deformed, dying child.

I’ll re-post to try to make this easier to read.

(LINK)
[Partial Birth Abortion] was developed as an alternative to an older, more ghastly procedure: dilation and evacuation. This is when the mother is partially dilated and some sort of grasping tool is used to pull the fetus out—piece by piece.

This procedure is somewhat dangerous to the mother, though, as bones begin to calcify at about 13 weeks gestation (24 weeks is the legal point of viability, at which time states are allowed to limit abortion rights), and shards or even entire body parts can be accidentally left in the uterus after the fetus is dismembered inside, causing infection and other injury.

Partial-birth abortions account for less than 0.2 percent of all abortions in the United States. Of those, most are performed at 20-24 weeks of gestation, or late into the second trimester but within the Supreme Court’s time frame. A study conducted in 1996 could only locate two cases of “partial birth abortion” performed after 24 weeks in that year in the United States.

Of those performed, the reasons most commonly given (although again I emphasize that statistics are very difficult to come by) were:

*The fetus had died late in development, and delivering it through natural means would have harmed the mother both physically and psychologically. (This type of procedure is not prohibited under the ban, but accounts for many, and possibly a majority, of the procedures included in statistics.)

*The fetus suffered from anencephaly, meaning that while it would carry to term, it would not have developed most of its brain. If not still born, such a child will usually die less than five days after birth. This defect is not usually discovered until late into the second trimester, when a partial birth or dilation and evacuation are the only options. The ban then leaves mothers with a choice between dilation and evacuation, or giving birth to their brainless child, then watching it die.

*The fetus developed a severe case of hydrocephalus, a swelling of the skull (due to a flooding of cerebrospinal fluid around the brain) which in extreme cases makes it impossible to pass through the birth canal. Many (about one in 500 American children) suffer from milder cases of the disease, but the ban does not make exceptions for cases wherein the mother would suffer permanent debilitating injury (swelling can go up to 250 percent normal size), only to give birth to a hopelessly brain-damaged, if not stillborn, infant. I think it would be interesting to see how Congressmen would feel about their wives or daughters being permanently handicapped in order to go through the trauma of giving birth to a deformed, dying child.

si vis,
What difference does it make how many women have abortions to save their lives? What matters is that there ARE women who have abortions for that reason, and you and your buddies would rather let your wives or daughters die than have an abortion. And you would force a victim of incest to have the baby rather than have an abortion. And you would force a victim of rape to have the baby rather than have an abortion.

Former SCOTUS judge O’Connor has intimated that had the anti-abortion proponents yielded on the issue of protection of the health and welfare of the mother the courts may well have acted against partial birth and maybe 3rd term abortions by now. Middle ground is difficult for extremists of either side yet reasonable people recognize this as the ultimate end of this divisive issue.

I can support a ban against all abortions after the 22nd week except to protect the health and welfare of the mother. Should serious medical problems, genetic disorders or gross deformities be detected in the fetus past 22 weeks into the pregnancy the mother has the right to terminate the pregnancy. During the 1st 22 weeks of pregnancy the decision to carry to term is entirely the mother’s.

While I’m certain that after consideration better solutions are possible but a position such as I have outlined is a place to begin.

Abortion is legal. Repeat:abortion is legal. The murder of the doctor is nothing more than CHRISTIAN TERRORISM.Looks like the DHS report put out a couple of weeks ago warning about right-wing domestic terrorists was right on. Im sure we will be hearing Carlson and the other reich-winger Burke speak out about this soon!!(i won”t hold my breath).

Lisa, dont tell me my positions, you have NO clue how I feel about abortion, so do us all a favor and shut up! You throw out rape/incest/health of the mother abortions as a defense for the act, and you are so adapt at providing left wing links to back up your “facts”, so how about it, can you provide any numbers?
If your entire defense of abortion is for the rape/incest/HOM cases, then how about we allow ONLY those?

“Well, son,” my mother once told me, “If you feel so strongly about abortion and a woman’s right to choose, then you should never have an abortion.”

It’s the extreme talk that killed Tiller. O’Reilly should be ashamed.

Now the religious right wing whackos are for murder???
How moral.

For the sake of discussion, I would point out that this incident is not about abortion. One’s stand on abortion has no bearing in this case. This is about a doctor in Kansas, performing legally sanctioned procedures and being gunned down for it, in what is supposed to be a universally recognized sanctuary, his church, in front of his wife, by a fanatic who has an opposing viewpoint. This is about the cumulative guilt of right wing talk radio, and Fox News who fanned the flames, with epithets like “Dr. Tiller, the baby killer,” and their influence over simple minded listeners/viewers who cannot maintain control of their passions. This is about those same media types, who claim they are defending the Second Amendment, by easing the requirements for securing and possessing weapons to be used by these unfortunate misanthropes. Abortion is, by its nature, controversial. As a pregnancy comes closer to term, it becomes more controversial. I do not pretend to have the answers. Murder is not controversial; most people hold a rather dim view of it. I would hope we could all agree on this point.

Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum, Lisa’s answered your questions rather thoroughly, I’d say. If this were Law & Order and I were Sam McCoy, I’d say, “asked and answered, your honor.”

Move on.

Bill O’Reilly should be charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
He has been railing on Dr. Tiller on his little propaganda program for years.

HKCHAS

What is sad, is that he KILLED 60,000 innocent lives for $5000 per abortion, and the law didn’t stop it. So you condone murder, and that is sad.

Lisa12

I have said a few times, that for rape, incest and the life of the mother, abortion should be an option.

— Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
“dont tell me my positions, you have NO clue how I feel about abortion, so do us all a favor and shut the hell up! ”
.
We’ve read your position on this board, many times embedded in your obvious struggle to compose understandable prose.
You’ve just supplied another on top of a heap of glaring examples of how virtually everything you post is contradictory, a lie or a repeat of a lie that has been many times debunked.
Your credibility is non existent.
.
We all here would benefit greatly if you would follow your very own advice and shut up.
Pretty please with sugar on it.
.
thank you

Lisa,
“Don Berra, budb, doubtingthomas, and magnum,
So if your wife was pregnant and her life was at risk, you would prefer that she die rather than have an abortion?”

This posting was about a shooting. Don’t drag me into your abortion rights campaign. I won’t dignify your insulting presumtion about me with an answer.

If the left wing idiots blame FNC for Tillers death, we can blame MSNBC for the death of the recruiter.

The argueing continues to more firmly entrench my stance on anti-prolife and christianity. It is completely clear that christianity is on the same radical level as Islam. Allowing radical christians control over this issue leads to their next conquest, execution by burning at the stake of individuals not praying to their satisfaction.

STLDB, since you seem to want to help, can you provide the numbers that Lisa cant?

The debate seems to less about abortion and more about rhetoric. We’ve seen and heard some pretty uncivilized rhetoric in the last year or so. “Tiller the baby killer” Oh really, O’Reilly!

It seems implausible to me that we have a slice of our population who will gladly agree with their leaders, Rush, Sean, and Glenn, to question our President’s citizenship and patriotism. We have right-wing religious Christian Taliban referring to Obama as the Antichrist. What makes no sense to me is how these very same people become almost apoplectic and call you crazy when you question their leadership’s explaination of torture, the War in Iraq, and the implications of 9/11.

In response to Si Vis, Budb et al., may I quote Simon and Garfunkel: “All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”. Si, Lisa gave you a very thorough explanation of late term abortions but you don’t want to hear. You just want to believe that a women wakes up one day 7 months into her pregnancy and says “this is such a drag. I don’t want to have this baby any more”. Sheesh!!

Heather,
Have I mentioned anything about abortion so far? How do you know how I feel about it? You don’t. I did mentioned that this posting was about a shooting.

Heather, I asked Lisa to provide numbers for the abortions connected to rape/incest and the all encompassing HOM, she couldnt provide them, yet continues to use them as a defense for abortion. As far as her description of PBA, here is another; the mother is dilated, the doctor then sticks scissors into the skull of the baby and the brains are removed. Then the babies body is removed.

— Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
“I asked Lisa to provide numbers for the abortions connected to rape/incest and the all encompassing HOM,. . ”
.
I’ve been here for months and it’s is obvious that your SOP includes trying to send posters off to provide additional references on items they have already fully documented.
You reward them by running and hiding after the poster provides additional data reinforcing their point.
You are to unable intellectually to refute their point so you resort to running and hiding after the poster has provided additional data reinforcing their point.
.
Your actions feed your jollies of having somebody do some work you don’t give a hoot about and have no intention of reading or commenting about.
You are a disingenuous individual that is a habitual liar, constantly repeating lies that have been debunked numerous times on these boards or just flat making up stuff to post to feed your desire for attention.

Well put! Although, I am a little disheartened that this Dr. is getting more coverage than the slain Army recruiter.
— budb1969
5:36 pm June 1st, 2009

By now you should know the mindset of the Post and loyal pro-abortion people…

Abortion doctor……..Great Man.

Army Recruiter………Despicable Man.

STL, where did Lisa post the number of abortions that are tied to rape/incest/HOM? It is possible that I missed them in some other thread, but I still dont see them here.

Amazed,
Yes, I know better. I really don’t know how this turned into an abortion topic in the first place.

Amazed–

You KNOW that is absolutely untrue, and only a dispicable character like YOU would say anything like that.

Shame on you

Ok, HK, where is the Post’s coverage or your concern for the military recruiter that was shot dead? Do the anti-war protesters share in the responsibility of flaming the tensions against our armed service recruiters as you folks are accusing anti-abortion folks of doing for Tiller’s killer?

Si-

Most reputable studies indicate about 30,00 rape pregnancies per year.

I really don’t know any statistics on incest, health of the mother, etc….

Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum rants and raves: “Don’t tell me what I think! You don’t know me, so you don’t know what I think!”.

Instead of frothing at the mouth, why not just tell us what you think? Do you think women should be forced to carry a fetus that is putting her life at risk? Do you think a woman should be forced to carry a fetus that was conceived by way of incest? Do you think a woman should be forced to carry a fetus that was conceived by way of rape? Do you think a woman should be forced to carry a fetus that was conceived by way of pressure or consent, yet, despite earnest consideration of the best interests for herself and those of her developing embryo, she makes a personal and legal choice otherwise?

It seems to me that “preparation for war” is unsatisfying to you, and so you angrily “make war” any chance you get. I’m not sure how your loud mouth and holier-than-thou rhetoric demonstrates that you in any way “wish for peace”; maybe you can explain? No need to whine and complain “no one knows what I think”, when you have every opportunity to make your opinions plain.

Amazed–

Read the paper

and

No

SHAME ON YOU. Using lies like that to promote your minority political opinions. I take it back, Rush is NOT ” the worst person in the world”…YOU are

hkchas,
So, are you saying that Tiller’s death was from right wing whackos and the recruiter’s death was just a shooting from a deranged individual???

There was no recruiter shot. It was 2 enlisted soldiers.
And what does that have to do with O’Rielly calling on his pinheads to take out “Tiller, the baby-killer”?
Are you whackos saying some one at MSNBC was calling for the murder of a Little Rock Naval Recruiter? Have a link for that? No?

hkchas,

What happened to the Army Recruiter was terrible, but it has nothing to do with what happened to Tiller. You didn’t have wingnut-whackos out there calling the recruiter names on national TV. The death of the recruiter, though terrible, is being used by the right-wing wack-jobs as a diversion.

“Well, where’s your outrage over this?!!” Stick to the point.

Ohhh, Keith Olberman, er, HKCHAS has deemed me the worst person in the world. What will I ever do?

Look dufus, two people were recently killed by nuts. One was a doctor responsible for numerous abortions the other was a uniformed serviceman. You blamed anti-abortion folks for the first, why not blame the anti-military (ie democratic establishment) folks for the latter?

juanita4748

One of these days, you will post and actually know what your talking about.

Amazed,
Who says Democrats are ant-military?
Just you?

Doctor: I’m sorry, sir, but your wife’s chances of survival are not good. Her body just can’t handle the stress of pregnancy right now.

Husband: What can be done to save her life?

Doctor: There used to be 3 doctors who were willing to risk their lives to save the lives of women like your wife. They were the only ones willing to perform abortions at this stage of pregnancy. Unfortunately, all 3 have been assassinated.

Husband: So you are saying that my only option is to watch my wife die?

Doctor: I’m afraid so. I’m sorry.

Oh, Lisa that little fairy tale brought a tear to my eye.

Question: If it’s such noble work this fool was doing, why the hell aren’t more than 3 people willing to do it?

Answer: Only three freaking people were are doctors without a conscience and a complete disregard for the hypocratic oath.

Si Vi-
” I asked Lisa to provide numbers for the abortions connected to rape/incest and the all encompassing HOM, she couldnt provide them…”

Why don’t you look it up yourself and quit harping on this. Lisa has nothing to prove to you so drop it, nobody is your research clerk. Your incessant yammering on a rather meaningless point is boring. Get this, abortion is legal and will remain so in the future. Now if you’re looking for some data go get it yourself.

AmazedbytheLunacy questions incredulously as if unfathomable: “Why are there only three doctors willing to perform this noble work?”

Answer is too simple, except maybe for right-wing talk show hosts and babbling lunatics: No one wants to enter a profession where they are open targets for anyone with a cause, a gun, and God on their side.

“Why don’t you look it up yourself and quit harping on this. Lisa has nothing to prove to you so drop it, nobody is your research clerk. Your incessant yammering on a rather meaningless point is boring. Get this, abortion is legal and will remain so in the future. Now if you’re looking for some data go get it yourself.
— Lunar Chiroptera ”

Because I am not the one using it as a defense for abortion, SHE IS!

Get back to your cave.

Answer is too simple, except maybe for right-wing talk show hosts and babbling lunatics: No one wants to enter a profession where they are open targets for anyone with a cause, a gun, and God on their side.
— SeaAnenome
2:30 pm June 2nd, 2009

Lots of good folks become police officers in this country. They are known targets and more of them have been murdered than have abortion providers. Your answer holds no water.

Si–

I GAVE you the stats.

Why do you ignore them ?

Amazed–

It’s easier to argue if you state both sides of the augument yourself. And truth doesn’t need to enter the argument, then, either

The democratic party does not now, nor have they EVER prayed for the death of anyone in the military, and only a dufus like you would even suggest such a thing.

People you support prayed every day for Tiller’s death, and even stalked him as a primer for assassins. OReilly TODAY is saying that he wouldn’t change ANYTHING….

HKCHAS

What in the hell is your problem? There is only 1-one-uno person to blame for the killing of Tiller. That is the bastard that pulled the trigger and NO ONE ELSE. Get a grip.

AmazedbytheLunacy relentlessly picks cherries, “Cops are murdered, yet people still become cops”. True, but they aren’t singled by zealots armed with God and His Cause in addition to their guns. Furthermore, Cops take the job knowing that death is a recognizable risk that comes with it. People don’t volunteer to enter medicine expecting that death by armed religious nuts is likely.

Besides, who’s arguing? I just pointed out an alternative to your self-serving one. Just because you lack the imagination to admit its validity doesn’t mean anyone is “arguing” with your narrow point of view. It’s just an observation that there are more perspectives than yours alone.

People you support prayed every day for Tiller’s death, and even stalked him as a primer for assassins. OReilly TODAY is saying that he wouldn’t change ANYTHING….
— HKCHAS
2:46 pm June 2nd, 2009

I’ve never prayed a day in my life, much less for anyone’s death. Nor do I support ANYONE that prays every day for anything.

If you want to hold O’Reilly accountable for Tiller’s murder, go right ahead.

Allow me to hold John Murtha, Barack Obama, John Murtha, Code Pink and all the other folks that accused our servicemen of atrocities accountable for leading to a nut actually gun one down in Little Rock.

Fair enough?

“I GAVE you the stats.

Why do you ignore them ?
— HKCHAS ”

Seriously, you call those stats? You chose a number out of thin air and called it “reputable studies”

“Magnum” the typical GOP crap weasel, speaks his drivel again!

Dr. Tiller was the victim of domestic terrorism after ther killer was egged on by Faux News and O’Reilly (who should be charged as ‘aiding, assisting or encouraging the commission of a crime!’).

Reputable studies have proven that Garrison says something stupid about 20,000 times a week…….

And Tim Hogan follows closely behind with 19,000 a week.

Do any of you libs have any evidence that Bill O’Reilly did anything other than report that this Dr Tiller had committed some 60,000 murders?

Tim Hogan

If you weren’t so stupid, you’d be funny, but your pretty damn pathetic.

Lets charge the ACLU with the death of some of our troops because they sued for the release of the pictures a few years ago.

You need to get some help from a shrink with a white coat.

magnon
Here’s hoping your Goose Creak meth-lab blows up.
Cheers, moron.

I guess with Tim the idiot Hogan’s reasoning, I could be blamed for juanita4748 going out and beating up a right wing whaco.

Wonder if juanita’s last name is Hogan?

There can’t be that many STUPID people.

Doubting Thomas: “Do any of you libs have any evidence that Bill O’Reilly did anything other than report that this Dr Tiller had committed some 60,000 murders?” The libs can’t do that be cause all O’Reilly did was report the facts. We can’t blame him for doing what journalists are supposed to do. The suspect in the murder of Dr. Tillman had previous arrests, has a history with an far far far right-wing group way before he crossed O’Reilly’s radar. This is an ideological issue. Very few (if any) normal pro-life advocates condone violence in getting their message out to the public. And, yes, there are a lot of normal pro-life advocates out there trying to educate women about the truth.

juanita4748

Where is Goose Creek?

Momof1girl,

I think you’ve hit the problem clearly on the head. Your claim that Tiller committed 60,000 murders is the kind of rhetoric that gets people all fired up and then go kill someone. I thought he’d performed 60,000 abortions, something completely legal in this country. I must be mistaken, somehow.

Until you change the laws of this country, abortion is legal. You cannot call it murder until the laws say that it’s murder. You’re totally confused.

Now, if you don’t like abortion, change the law, ammend the Constitution, load the Supreme Court with other wing-nuts. Until then, this Dr’s murder had O’Reilly’s hands stained blood red by calling him a ‘baby killer’.

juanita4748

I have gone off the deep end before in how I phrase my view. I also have been called some unspeakable things.

You and I if we were told we had to be a liberal or a conservative would probably both be in the same camp.

Yet I have to agree that you have gone to far with your language.

Si–

As you often say, search yourself. It’s EASY. Google rape pregnancies

Jellio: If you feel better not calling abortion what it is, I guess that is your choice. The supreme court can do what it wants, but killing living, breathing babies in the womb or elsewhere is murder and calling it anything else will not make them less dead.

Oh and Jamie,
Since when do you let cowards having three different IDs on here?

Folks,
Some of the offensive language and personal attacks have been removed.
– Jamie

Jaime

Thanks

This thread has become too emotional on both sides and I woun’t post anymore here. See everyone on some other ( perhaps calmer) thread.

For Si Vis:

“The Louisiana Department of Health compiled statistics over a 14-year period and found that the justification for 99.12% of abortions in that state were “mother’s mental health.” Mother’s physical health made up .75% of all abortions, fetal deformity another .09%, and rape/incest at .04%.”

Anyone willing to look hard enough will find mild variations on the above statistics, usually skewed towards the political leanings of the source. Whatever the source, however, it’s clear that abortions are very rarely associated with rape, incest or concerns for anything other than the “mental health” of the mother.

Doubtingthomas,

Isn’t this what the whole Supreme Court Justice argument is all about? It’s not about how you or I feel about abortion, it’s about the law. The law says that abortion is legal (for now) murder, however, is not.

What you feel is to take the law into your own hands or at least justify someone else doing so.

Jellio: My handy pocket Websters dictionary defines murder as “the unlawful OR premeditated killing of one human being by another.” Now, it is hard for me to conceive of an abortion that was not premediated. I admit it is kind of a play on words for shock value, and this definition would actually make state executions and killing on the battlefield while protecting our country murder, both of which I support. I certainly condemn the murder of Dr Tiller, and it actually hurts our cause as abortion opponents. I realize the supreme court has deemed abortion to be legal. That does not mean I am going to stop opposing it and trying to get the law reversed. I will not break the law while doing so.

One woman’s story…

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031222/ayrey
A whirlwind of tests and consultations ensued during the following week, all determining that her quality-of-life outlook was markedly low. Alarmingly, two parts of her brain were missing completely, other areas were malformed and there was a heart defect, as well as acute limb irregularities. My heart sank in disbelief, as time began to tick…

Taking a life for what one believes shows a step into revolutionary thought and a frustration with the more evolutionary process of bringing about change by winning hearts and minds and trying to change the law. Killing doctors does not win hearts and minds. All it does is solidify the opposition.

So, clearly, the killer was not thinking rationally. What drove him to take revolutionary action? Was he weak minded and easily influenced by the rhetoric on TV and talk radio? Was this an act of religious ferver much like the terrorist who would bomb a restaurant because of his beliefs?

Any way you look at it, the rhetoric needs to tone down. We don’t need Gordon Liddy telling people to shoot for the head when confronting BATF agents. Yes, he actually said that. The psycho-talk coming from the media needs to be seriously considered. Maybe we could look at the example of what happened in Rwanda when talk radio personalities compared the Tutsis to cockroaches and that they needed to be exterminated. One of the things that should have been learned from Rwanda was that people are easily influenced through the shock of the zeitgeist. The here and now of fear can make people to crazy stuff.

Another woman’s story…

(LINK)
Instead of cinnamon and spice, our child came with technical terms like hydrocephalus and spina bifida. The spine, she said, had not closed properly, and because of the location of the opening, it was as bad as it got. What they knew — that the baby would certainly be paralyzed and incontinent, that the baby’s brain was being tugged against the opening in the base of the skull and the cranium was full of fluid — was awful. What they didn’t know — whether the baby would live at all, and if so, with what sort of mental and developmental defects — was devastating. Countless surgeries would be required if the baby did live. None of them would repair the damage that was already done…

Everyone said, of course it’s the right thing to do — even my Catholic father and my Republican father-in-law, neither of whom was ever “pro-choice.” Because suddenly, for them, it wasn’t about religious doctrine or political platforms. It was personal — their son, their daughter, their grandchild. It was flesh and blood, as opposed to abstract ideology, and that changed everything…

The doctor who performed my termination talks about the women he has helped through the years — the pregnant woman who was diagnosed with metastic melanoma and needed immediate chemotherapy, the woman who was carrying conjoined twins that had only one set of lungs and one heart, the woman whose baby had a three-chambered heart and would never live. Now, he is turning these women away. “Now, today, I can say no, but what is she going to do?” he says sadly. “What is she going to do?”

Another woman’s story…

(LINK)
But a routine ultrasound on October 26 — meant to be a time of great joy (my best friend came with us to the appointment — revealed terrible news: one of the twins had died, probably about a week before. We went from the ultrasound appointment to my obstetrician’s office and were met with even more grim news. My weight had spiked up about 18 pounds, my blood pressure was soaring, and I had protein in my urine.

It turned out that I was in full-blown preeclampsia. I was admitted to the hospital immediately.

After that, everything happened very quickly. I was put on medication (magnesium sulfate) in an attempt to treat the preeclampsia and save the remaining twin until he reached outside-the-womb viability — a mere two weeks away (I was just over 22 weeks pregnant). But I got much worse overnight; my blood pressure couldn’t be controlled, I had a massive headache and was vomiting uncontrollably. My kidneys shut down. I was moments away from seizures, coma, and death when the doctors came and told us the bad news: my remaining twin could not be saved. My pregnancy had to be terminated or both the baby and I would die…

Here’s the part of the story where choice comes in. I could, of course, have gone through induced labor and delivered my tiny twins. But my blood pressure was hovering around 165/120 (often going higher), even with treatment. Can you imagine what labor would have done to my body with blood pressure that high? My doctor recommended, and I agreed, that I undergo the much less stressful intact dilation and extraction procedure — what the “pro-life” forces often like to call a “partial birth abortion.”…

I was lucky because the partial-birth abortion ban was not yet in effect in October of 2004. If it had been, I would have been forced to undergo labor and delivery, no matter the risks to my health, and I might right now be either dead or so brain damaged I would be unable to type this.

Another woman’s story…

(LINK)
I could see my baby’s amazing and perfect spine, a precise, pebbled curl of vertebrae. His little round skull. The curve of his nose. I could even see his small leg floating slowly through my uterus.

My doctor came in a moment later, slid the ultrasound sensor around my growing, round belly and put her hand on my shoulder. “It’s not alive,” she said…

My doctor turned around and faced me. She told me that because dilation and evacuation is rarely offered in my community, I could opt instead to chemically induce labor over several days and then deliver the little body at my local maternity ward. “It’s up to you,” she said.

I’d been through labor and delivery three times before, with great joy as well as pain, and the notion of going through that profound experience only to deliver a dead fetus (whose skin was already starting to slough off, whose skull might be collapsing) was horrifying.

I also did some research, spoke with friends who were obstetricians and gynecologists, and quickly learned this: Study after study shows D&Es are safer than labor and delivery. Women who had D&Es were far less likely to have bleeding requiring transfusion, infection requiring intravenous antibiotics, organ injuries requiring additional surgery or cervical laceration requiring repair and hospital readmission.

I could feel my baby’s dead body inside of mine. This baby had thrilled me with kicks and flutters, those first soft tickles of life bringing a smile to my face and my hand to my rounding belly. Now this baby floated, limp and heavy, from one side to the other, as I rolled in my bed.

And within a day, I started to bleed. My body, with or without a doctor’s help, was starting to expel the fetus. Technically, I was threatening a spontaneous abortion, the least safe of the available options.

I did what any pregnant patient would do. I called my doctor. And she advised me to wait.

I lay in my bed, not sleeping day or night, trying not to lose this little baby’s body that my own womb was working to expel. Wait, I told myself. Just hold on. Let a doctor take this out.

On my fourth morning, with the bleeding and cramping increasing, I couldn’t wait any more. I called my doctor and was told that since I wasn’t hemorrhaging, I should not come in. Her partner, on call, pedantically explained that women can safely lose a lot of blood, even during a routine period.

I began calling labor and delivery units at the top five medical centers in my area. I told them I had been 19 weeks along. The baby is dead. I’m bleeding, I said. I’m scheduled for a D&E in a few days. If I come in right now, what could you do for me, I asked.

Don’t come in, they told me again and again. “Go to your emergency room if you are hemorrhaging to avoid bleeding to death. No one here can do a D&E today, and unless you’re really in active labor you’re safer to wait.”

Another couple’s story…

(LINK)
In 1994 my wife and I found out that she was pregnant. The pregnancy was difficult and unusually uncomfortable but her doctor repeatedly told her things were fine. Sometime early in the 8th month my wife, an RN who at the time was working in an infertility clinic asked the Dr. she was working for what he thought of her discomfort. He examined her and said that he couldn’t be certain but thought that she might be having twins. We were thrilled and couldn’t wait to get a new sonogram that hopefully would confirm his thoughts. Two days later our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.

Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies. … The point is that the pain and suffering were only mitigated by the compassion and competence of Dr. George Tiller and his staff. We are all diminished today for a host of reasons but most of all because a man of great compassion and courage has been lost to the world.

I agree murder is murder!

Are you an advocate for partial birth abortions - please take time to actually view what the process is. Heinous is an understatement if see how these babies are being killed.

Lisa: The other day you posted that you wanted everyone involved in torture (you may have said war crimes) punished. I see you are an advocate of abortion. I am trying to start a movement to re-label saline abortions as waterboarding, as there is a shocking similarity. Perhaps then you would be properly horrified. Maybe not, as the prospect of a terrorist being frightened apparently is much more repulsive to you then a child fighting for his or her life, but having no chance of surviving.

Doubtingthomas

Heard last night that there have been 45,000,000 abortions since Roe vs Wade. That many babies KILLED and they have horror attacks over waterboarding. They are sick.

amazed: Lots of good folks become police officers in this country. They are known targets and more of them have been murdered than have abortion providers. Your answer holds no water.

Police officers do not have their offices bombed, as happened to Tiller in 1985. In 1993, Tiller was shot in both arms. Police officers do not have folks like OReilly calling them “Tiller the Baby Killer.” Police Officers do not have groups of protesters in front of their homes. Police Officers are not threatened with phone calls and letters.

Here is what one doctor said in an interview on TV…
Dr. Hern: Well, we have lived with these kinds of problems for 35 years or more. When I first started doing abortions in boulder, co., at a non profit clinic, I started getting obscene death threats in the middle of the night two weeks after we started. and the anti abortion people have made attempts on my life, threatened my life 1000’s of times, every doctor who does abortions in this country is under this kind of threat.

One day, all of you who celebrated the “partial birth abortion” ban may wish it was still available if YOUR wife or daughter is pregnant and dying. All of you who *celebrated* Dr. Tiller’s death, may someday wish that he was alive, so you could take your wife or daughter to him to save her life. Or maybe not. Maybe you feel so strongly against abortion, that you would prefer to watch your wife and the baby die. And maybe it makes you happy that everyone in the country will be forced to watch their wife or daughter die, too.

And of course, none of this applies to amazed, because no one in his family will ever experience a “what if” scenario. He somehow knows that no one in his family will ever experience anything bad.

What website feeds you your constant barrage of BS, Lisa?

A police officer is about 100X (opinion) more likely to die as a result of the profession than any abortion doctor. I can find 100 police officers killed in the last 12 months. You can find one abortion doctor.

Lisa, first it’s ball cancer and now you want women in my life to face a problem pregnancy? Geesh woman you are a twisted nut.

“In many states it is illegal to abort a viable baby. This includes Kansas, where Tiller practiced.”

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=99924

Who are all these people on the right who celebrated Dr Tiller’s death? Name them.

Dr. Tiller was a “law-abiding” citizen performing a perfectly LEGAL medical procedure requested by women.Now I see whe the DHS said we need to watch for right-wing domestic terrorists. I hope they are monitoring this board-seems like their are a lot of Religious Taliban on here.

“Lisa, first it’s ball cancer and now you want women in my life to face a problem pregnancy? Geesh woman you are a twisted nut.”

Well? You’re advocating for procedures like the ones Dr. Tiller performed to be banned, meaning that many women will die very painful deaths, bringing to birth dead or very deformed fetuses. You don’t give a crap about those women. Maybe if the problem happened to a woman you DO care about - a woman you can’t just dismiss as “promiscuous slut who got what she deserved” because she isn’t a virgin - maybe then you’d have some empathy. Maybe if you saw that women DON’T have these procedures carelessly or casually, so they can fit into that cocktail dress or whatever - maybe when you see the heartbroken would-have-been mother mourning for a pregnancy gone horribly wrong (or dying, because people like you have scared off all the providers who might have helped her), maybe then you’ll think of the woman as a full human being.

But asking an anti-choicer to have one thought or concern for the woman is pointless. A two-celled blastula without brain or nerve endings, to you, is more human and more real than the thinking, feeling woman in whom it is living and whose body parts and energy it is using. A baby whose brain is missing, or who is unable to survive outside the womb for more than a few agonizing hours, or a baby who won’t survive the birth that would kill its mother too - making sure that baby is either born dead instead of removed surgically from the womb, or gets its few agonizing hours of pain and terror outside the womb, is far more important to you then ensuring that its mother can live, survive, care for her existing children, maybe have more children who can live healthy and happy lives.

Because to you, there are only three kinds of women - virgins, mothers, and sluts. Virgins are OK until they have sex (even within marriage), or are raped - then they are sluts who can only be redeemed by becoming mothers. If she fails in any way to become a mother, other than miscarriage, you feel free to judge her motives and her life, to call her a murderer, instead of a woman who makes a difficult ethical choice for herself and her family. You would never agree to have your body parts made the property of another, even your own child, without you having any say in when and how they could be used, even if it cost you your education, your health, your life. But you want this to be the punishment for any woman who has the gall not to be a virgin.

And you have the nerve to whine because Lisa wishes you to suffer some of what you wish on others, while you egg on the crazies who murder doctors who help women in desperate and horrible situations.

Another woman’s story…

(LINK)
The expression on his face I will never forget, the change in color from pink to ash, as if he had died standing at my side. “Lie down,” he said quietly. “Lie down on your left side. Now.”

The numbers were all wrong, two hundred plus, over and over again, his eyes darkening as he watched the mercury climb on the wall. He shook his head. … He told me to go into the tiny bathroom and pee into a cup. “We’ve got to dipstick your urine, see if there’s any protein.”

I sat on the toilet and listened to him crash through the cupboards. I gave him the paper cup, the gold liquid cloudy and dense. The dipstick changed color quickly, from white to powdery blue to sky to deep indigo. My protein level was off the chart. “No,” he whispered. “No, no, goddammit, no.”

I asked what, over and over, not believing that things could be as bad as what his face was telling me. “Your kidneys aren’t working,” he said. He pulled me out the door, across the street to the hospital. He pounded the buttons of the elevator, pulled me flying to the nurses’ station, spat numbers at them. I thought, don’t be a bully, nurses hate doctors who are bullies; but they scattered like quail, one of them on the phone, another pushing me, stumbling, into a room…

There was a name for what I had. Preeclampsia. Ahh. Well, preeclampsia was certainly better than eclampsia, and as long as it was pre-, then they could stop it, couldn’t they? And what was eclampsia? An explosion of blood pressure, a flood of protein poisoning the blood, kidney failure, the vessels in spasm, a stroke, seizures, blindness, death…

“Baby needs at least two more weeks for viability. He’s already too small, way too small. But you . . .” He looked at me sadly, shook his head. “You probably can’t survive two weeks without having a stroke, seizures, worse.” He meant I could die.

This is how they said it. I was toxemic, poisoned by pregnancy. My only cure was to not be pregnant anymore. The baby needed two more weeks, just fourteen days.

I looked at John hopefully. “I can wait. It will be all right.”

“Honey. Your blood pressure is through the roof. Your kidneys are shutting down. You are on the verge of having a stroke.”…

I signed papers of consent, my hand moving numbly across the paper, my mind screaming, I do not consent, I do not, I do not.

Another woman’s story…

(LINK)
I sat in a university hospital with obstetrician number five as he patiently and painstakingly presented ultrasound scans from “normal” pregnancies and then scans from my own pregnancy. Each of the multiple anomalies present — omphalocele, spina bifida, anencephaly and others — were explained and, for the first time I fully understood why the child I already deeply loved and wanted would never survive outside of my womb.
…
Although we had made the decision to terminate the pregnancy, we first had to deal with state law requirements in relation to late term abortions. When our waiver was denied, our doctor referred us to another physician in a nearby state. An ultrasound the morning of the two-day procedure showed that our child had already died. Further tests concluded that I had already developed an infection.
…
If there is such a thing as adding insult to this sort of injury, however, the award goes to Congress and the Bush administration for their passage of the “Partial Birth Abortion Ban,” and the U.S. Supreme Court for their ruling in Gonzalez v. Carhart. While this piece of legislation does nothing to limit late term abortions, it does outlaw a specific procedure that allowed doctors to remove the fetus body intact.

Just to be clear, given that in my case the child suffered from anencephaly, it would be next to impossible for me to have had a true dilation and extraction procedure. To be graphic, an ancephalic child has no skull to prohibit its passage through the cervix. However, if I were to undergo a termination for an ancephalic child today, the doctor, according to law, would not be able to deliver the fetus in one piece. That is, our law now requires the fetus to be dismembered prior to removal from the uterus. Not only is this a more invasive procedure, but it prevents the parents of ancephalic children from holding their child after a termination has been completed.

Another woman’s story…

(LINK)
Up until the moment I sat across the desk from my OB, I held out hope that he would give my son some chance to beat the odds. I couldn’t believe it when he said that there was no chance that he would live very long after he was born. Since I had not even entertained that idea, I was even less prepared for the next thing he had to say, but those words are burned into my memory forever.

“There is no one in Texas who can do this procedure. The only doctor you can go to is in Wichita, Kansas. I talked to him. He seems very nice. Here is his number.” That was it. There was nothing more he could do for us. I could barely stand up when we rode down the elevator.

Even then, I didn’t connect this doctor to the story on the news. It wasn’t until I was on the phone with them, after we went through the procedure, the schedule, the cost, and all the other details that the woman said, “I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the doctor was shot last month.“

Another woman’s story…

(LINK)
Catherine and her husband of eight years live in the Midwest, and learned during the 14th week of pregnancy that their child had Trisomy 13 and that the pregnancy was threatening her health:

If I tried to carry to term and suffered a late term fetal death or miscarriage, there was a serious chance of complications for me. I might
hemmorrage [sic], I might get an infection, the trisomy might interfere with the development of the placenta and leave me deathly ill. My OB told me, in very plain language, that if I carried this pregnancy to term, there was a very high chance that I would never bear another child. There was no good choice. There was no hope of a healthy child. There was no hope of a living child. I could have an abortion, or I could see how
my luck went with carrying this doomed pregnancy to term and risk my life and future fertility, and I elected to have an abortion.

~~~ Anencephaly ~~~

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/anencephaly/anencephaly.htm
Anencephaly is a defect in the closure of the neural tube during fetal development. Anencephaly occurs when the “cephalic” or head end of the neural tube fails to close, resulting in the absence of a major portion of the brain, skull, and scalp. Infants with this disorder are born without a forebrain (the front part of the brain) and a cerebrum (the thinking and coordinating part of the brain). The remaining brain tissue is often exposed–not covered by bone or skin.

The cold-blooded murder of Dr. Tiller sadly shows that the so-called “pro-life” movement is an hypocritical farce. They have more “compassion” for a fetus than for a living, breathing human being.

ABORTION ISN’T MURDER.

Its time we start calling these “pro-lifers” what they REALLY are which is they are “RELIGIOUS TERRORIST”.I hope the DHS steps up their surveillance of these terrorists.