Wah wah wah. Why should it be the government’s responsibility to address such special needs? In fact, I think kids would be better off going to a private institution to address those needs. Let the public schools focus on the run of the mill, cookie-cutter education.

The only reason Ric Stephenson wants public schools to do it is so that his beloved union gets the dough. He doesn’t care about the kids. No unions do. Why else do you see whiny union teachers go on strike when they should sit their butts in the classroom and teach the kids they supposedly care about?

The only reason I disagree with you is that I think that public schools should be closed because they do such a poor job as it is. Look at the number off indoctrinated fools that attend these poorly run schools.

Its time the government gets out of the education business. When a business does such a poor job then they are run out of business. The NEA is the most dangerous organization in the US today. Look at the results and then we can talk!

Agree the government(US taxpayers) should get out of the education business. Im tired of paying for people”s kids education.You had the rug rats,YOU pay for their education.

As is normal the right wing is at it again.

Especially dave hos is less than zero and myomy.

The talk about the results of the public schools. Yet they do not look at the limitations that the public schools work under.

The public schools are not allowed to pick and choose which students they wish to try and educate, the private schools do. So if a student has a low IQ or is disruptive the public school is required to take the student, the private school is not.

The private school can defray the cost of support staff by requiring parents to work a certain number of hours at the school each year, the public school cannot.

If the state or city chooses to provide bus service or medical service to a private school this does not come from the budget of the private school, it does for the public school.

Schools try to retain students that are failing in hopes of turning the student around. This results in the schools GPA falling. Years ago, as recent as the 1960’s, if a student had low grades they could quit school and still make a good living. Today that is not true. So schools are holding onto these students in the hope of teaching them enough to be productive.

To acknowledge any of these factors that public schools must deal with is repugnant to such conservatives. To do so would cause to many problems with their simplistic view of problems. Perhaps their educational system did fail because they cannot comprehend complex problems so they fall back on simplistic answers.

Then we have people like myomy. This one says that it is not his responsibility to pay to educate the children of others. Yet he receives the benefits of the education. The doctors, the engineers, the truck driver who learned to read so that he knows where to make a delivery all were the children of someone else.

If what myomy is true then why should any of us pay for any road that we do not use? The answer is we do get a benefit out of those roads as we get a benefit out of the education of other peoples children.

To acknowledge such facts though would require that they think beyond a simplistic world, and perhaps their education did fail them in denying them that ability.

The way I read this story is perhaps a little different from the rest of you:

First, there are laws that require public schools to provide special ed classes.

Second, if the public school district chooses to not provide special ed, for any reason, then they can be required to pay for those services elsewhere.

Third, some districts have been trying to balance their budgets by slashing these programs.

In response to the above, SCOTUS ruled that if a district cuts these programs, then the parents can sue the district and demand that they pay for these services elsewhere, even if it costs more than it would have cost otherwise.

Think-Dave-Ohmy …

Do you consider yourselves ” compassionate conservatives ” ?

You liberals just have no problem with failure. Why is success so foreign to you? Don’t you get it? Why in Gods name(sorry liberals) do you continue to throw money at failure and then complain about it?

Oh, I forgot. Cant you liberals see what government education has done for you. You guys are mess and you can only survive if you have a slimy politician make decisions for you. So, what was the point of having the government educate you. You are perfect examples of failure.

Of course as usual zero Dave does not wish to be bothered by facts. To do so would interfere wit his right to rant uncontrollably.

He looks at private education has uses that has his example to show what is wring with public education.

Do not let the fact that private education does not work under the same rules in who they must educate, get in the way. Do not let the fact that private education makes demands on parents that public education cannot make, get in the way. Do not let the fact that public education must educate the handicapped, get in the way. Do not let the fact that if busing and nurses are provided by government to private institutions at no cost the same service comes for public education comes from their budget get in the way.

No let us not let any of the facts get in the way for zero Dave. If we let the facts get in the way then he would be wrong. By ignoring the facts zero Dave is secure in the knowledge that he is correct, but then to do so we need to ignore the facts.

By ignoring the facts zero Dave is secure in the knowledge that he is correct, but then to do so we need to ignore the facts.

allow me to translate: Zero dave-you are a right-wing d-bag (and most likely “teabagger”) who gets his “facts” from Glenn Beck and other nimrods at Fox Noise rather than actually obtaining FACTS and then drawing your own conclusion.

You probably think that the AIDS quilt causes global warming and that Sarah Palin is a misunderstood “maverick” too,

As usual, you leftists ignore the failing facts of government schools, but then again when did facts ever matter to you. It’s certainly not about the kids or success but more for jobs for NEA teachers and government indoctrination. Our government spends more and more on education and results are getting worse. So, instead of revamping a failing system you want more money for a failing system. That sounds like communism to me!

Dont tell me you care for the kids, it insults my intelligence. Why did Obama change his mind in DC when the parents were complaining about pulling the charter schools from those kids which was very successful. That’s because its not about the kids and success. If you dont agree, prove to me on a logical level why we should continue this failing system.

Zero Dace

How can one insult your intelligence when you have yet to prove that you have any.

There is a simple way to find out who is correct and who is not. The private schools take the students from a failing school. They do not get to choose which ones they get to accept. They do not get to exclude the low IQ students. They do not get to set rules that require the parents provide a certain amount of free labor. They must provide busing and a school nurse at their own expense. They must provide special ed classes when required, whether for remedial reading or the handicapped. If they do all that is required of the public school and within their budget and the test scores rise then it is the NEA’s fault, but then you only need to find the private school that is willing to do this.

But no you crow about the charter schools. The schools that get to ignore many if not most of what the private schools labor under. They can exclude a student for being a slow learner or having a special need that the school is not willing to provide.

You care not for the student that has learning difficulties for what ever reason. You care not for the troubled youth, you would rather see them fail and enter the prison system for the charter school will not wish to be bothered with such a student.

No you prefer to point to the schools that can pick and choose their students and proclaim that superior. The same could be done in the public schools if you release all the under achievers and the special needs children. Then you would see a dramatic increase in the schools test scores. However, that fact would then go against your preconceived idea’s and ruin the little world in which you live.

You are such an idiot!

So, you choose to keep a system that fails? So your idea is to continue this farce of fixing the schools by ignoring the successful ones? You idea of fixing the schools is to base everything on the lowest common denominator? What is your idea Mr. Smart guy? From what I read your idea is to delete the successful charter schools and go back to failure? Yes you idiot! You have no plan. Please name what parts the government does so well that you are so proud of. Please tell me how much money is enough to insure that kids will not be like an idiot like you who continues to fail. You cant even find a job and you are telling everyone else how things are going to make it.

So, come on Mr. Smart guy, tell us all what to do. You obviously have all the answers. You people make me sick. You have no solutions, all you do is bitch and moan and do NOTHING to change the current failing system!

Zero Dave

I might be an idiot as you say, but that still puts my intelligence at least 100 points higher than yours.

Were did I bitch and moan? I pointed out facts. But, hey, do not let facts get in your way.

You wish to do away with the public schools and have private/charter schools. So what are your answers for the students that those schools will not accept? Allow the public schools to only accept the smart and well behaved students and I am sure that their school GPA’s will go up.

Let the public schools not have to pay for busing and nurses out of their budget. Let the public schools only accept those students whose parents will provide free labor each year. I bet you see their school budgets go down.

But then you have offered no answer about the hard to educate or the special needs children. These are not addressed by private or charter schools. So do you see them has sub human and not worthy of our concern?

Then as always you play the card I am a successful businessman and you are unemployed. So are you saying that you are better than 14 million Americans. If that is so what about the American that is employed but makes less than you, are you better than they? What about the American whose business is twice the size of yours are you half the American that that person is? Is wealth or owning a business what matters in intelligence? If so Bernie Madoff was one heck of an intelligent man until a year ago, now I suppose under your scale he went from extremely intelligent to being an idiot.

My private investments have so far done $3 million in transactions to date. This foes to pay taxes and commissions so people are keeping their jobs. yet you can only focus on the idea that my normal job has a down period. So I guess $3 million does not carry any wright these days. You seem to look on it with disdain.

You are pathetic less than zero dave.

See, you have no solution. What is it with you people to believe that government is the answer. I am still waiting on all the things that government has done well and efficient.

Here are my solutions. First off, get rid of the ridiculous certification crap that does nothing but make the NEA stronger. The NEA is a joke and majorly responsible for the failure of our schools. Then allow private enterprise to take over. I believe the education of our kids would be done more efficient and more successful. Our nation didnt get where it is today because of government. Our nation got where it is today because of the people and their initiative and creativity, which is being stolen from our children. Your answers are always government. Its our government thats causing our demise as we speak. If we dont grab back our liberty then tyranny will take hold of us.

Look, I am hard about this because I see major indoctrination of our citizens. It steals creativity and critical thinking skills. I see lock step going on and frankly it saddens me to see so many fall for this garbage. Instead of people trusting themselves they put their faith in government, who continually screws us over and fails the very citizens it claims to represent.

So, here’s the difference. You want to entrust government who cannot be successful at educating our children. You wnat to entrust government to take care of your health care, disregarding all the things that it does so poorly. We are at a standstill. You trust Barney Frank Chris Dodd, Ted Kennedy, Obama(who has never run anything) and all these other people then your fellow American citizens who have given us choice and have done a wonderful job at bringing us products every single day.

I trust business and the private sector to do a much better job. I would hope that many of the dedicated teachers would form businesses to teach the children. You see, I have confidence in the people of the United States, its just too bad that you still believe that the lowest common denominator should dictate everything.

I grew up extremely poor. If I would have had the same attitude of many of you liberals there is no telling where I would have been or what I would have become. I was NEVER given anything. I have always worked very hard at everything I have done. I have been an entrepreneur most of my life. I believed in myself and the people I hired. I always tried to encourage anyone that worked for me that they could do well if they stopped making excuses. I feel I have turned many lives around. I have fired people and have them come back later telling me that they were sorry and totally understood why they were fired. Many have become successful.

So, you can take your failing system any day. I wont and will always work for individualism and success. In the mean time, you keep depending on your politician. He/she will steal from you every chance they get and you dont even have the intelligence to see it. What a shame!

Less than zero Dave

Your suggestions first of all do not address the question of the handicapped or the difficult to educate. Your system works just wonders for the average or bright kids but do nothing for the others. By the way the average and bright kids are the ones that are graduating anyway.

You want to place the education in the hands of the private industry. First of all did you ever hear about the private turn around firm they brought in to the STL schools and gave freedom of decision. They made a mess of it and only at a very high price.

Last year during a discussion about schools I asked questions about the private voucher system and I was jumped like crazy bu the right wing even though it is the conservatives pushing the system. I must assume that when you talk charter schools and private schools you are talking vouchers.

Guess what you idiot no one answered my questions.

You want answers well here are some answers. Close some schools and concentrate the students more, this reduces the staff.

If you cut something the first thing to go is the sports programs. I do not care if 5 members of your football program can get scholarships to college. Most of those will not graduate and the money spent keeping a sports program going will pay a teachers salary.

For those that are obviously not going to make it to college offer alternative courses. When I say alternative I mean trade programs. I also mean real trade programs. I do not know how it is today but several years ago they offered courses in how to run a printing press, the problem was that they were using out dated equipment so they were not teaching to industry standards.

According to some studies within ten years we are going to have a severe shortage of plumbers electricians and carpenters. So start a trade program to teach this and urge the students who are not going to college to enter these programs.

Secretary is a trade so do not demean it and teach it to those not going to college.

Do not teach computer programming etc in the trade programs most of the students who come out ready for this are not very good. I know when I say that someone will say that they work with a good one. I have worked with plenty and they are not very good.

Start a job placement service in the school. Primarily for graduating seniors but also to help the lower classes find summer jobs.

Of course I would continue the remedial classes. If there are enough handicapped students for a class then have a class in school otherwise pay for them to go to alternative teaching facilities.

Increase the honors classes. If the student is bright let them work at a harder level. My nephew will be a second semester college freshman when he graduates from high school.

Do away with the no child left behind program. It is expensive and just encourages people to teach to what is on the test.

Talk about lock step. When I went through the education system we were taught about how the indians loved the presence of the white man. We were taught it was just a few bad indians that stirred everything up. We were taught how the British were so terrible during the war of 1812. Guess what a lot of what we were taught was wrong. When it was corrected the conservatives wailed about revisionist history after all others could not dislike us because we are the USA.

So less than zero. You depend on your private enterprise to reduce the cost after all they not only need to cover their cost but they also need to make a profit. So current cost plus profit, yep a good way to keep the cost down.

This is where public education has been headed for years. When schools are in trouble, we ask lawyers, Doctors, Politicians, Clergy, Business leaders, what’s wrong with public education? We never ask teachers. We don’t want to know the truth.

Prediction: Within 20 years, every child in public schools will have an IEP. They’ll also probably have a lawyer to go with them from class to class, payed for by taxpayers.

So, government wins again. What a surprise! You government idiots are ruining this country. I am still waiting for you to tell me what government does great. You cant answer that question because it does nothing great, except for the military. However with politicians putting their grubby hands in then it too is inefficient but thats not the commanders fault.

So, you keep kissing those politicians asses. Im glad you love your government. Hitlers people did too.

Our country is great because of people and not government. Private enterprise has mad our country great but according your sissy butt you still love your corrupt politicians. Enjoy, I am done with idiots like you. You again are ruining the greatest country ever. Do you care? Obviously not.

Done!

I can see that they brought a computer into his padded cell, again.

Zero Dave

You are waiting for me to tell you what the government does better than private industry.

Funny thing is that since you brought up how I am still waiting for you to answer my question. You suggest that I have no right to give my opinion because I am unemployed or if I have the right it should be discounted. So are you saying that 14 million Americans opinions should be discounted? Are you saying income levels should be considered as to their opinions validity? If so does that mean someone making $2 million is worth twice as much as $1 million.

YOU FAILED TO ANSWER THE QUESTION,

So you want something that government does better than private companies?

Government does EDUCATION better than private companies. The reason is simple government will try, perhaps fail in some circumstances but it at least tries, to educate everybody. At the same time PRIVATE industry will skim the easy and profitable part of the population and throw the rest aside.

Your plan is to do away with government education then HOPE that enough private companies are formed to educate everyone, even those in the rural area’s were the population is sparse and spread out making it unprofitable for private companies.

You see that is what is wrong with your pea brain you only look at the easy to educate and densely populated area’s. Your pea brain cannot comprehend that private industry would skip over large portions of the population.

But then if your plan did go into effect we would have those large portions of the population that no attempt was made to educate. So that portion of the population would be unemployable. So then taxes could be used to support that portion of the population. So you would be happy in the end, because it would give you somethi9ng to moan and groan about and it all was thanks to your plan.

Bob,

You continue to ask abou the special needs and hard to educate (meaning the parents don’t give a S**T). In a free market system any need will be met by a private business. Some entrepreneur will see a need that is not being met and create a business to fill that need. This is the same reason you have non-religious private schools. Someone saw a need for a better than public education and decided to fill that need.

So I believe that private enterprise does a better job and you believe that government does a better job. You have NO examples of what government does better but it doesnt matter to you because you are so small as a person that you need a politician and/or government official to make decisions for you. And I’m the one with a pea brain? You are hilarious! Over and over and over private enterprise does extraordinary things and a good price and government overspends all of them.

You know, there really is something wrong with you people. If you have so little faith in your fellow man then how the hell do you expect them to have faith in you? You nanby-pamby weak sissy people are a disgrace. We already have a pathetic government school system which ranks somewhere around 18th throughout the world and you people keep funding this disaster. Until your socialist hands got into business we used to be ranked #1 business wise but with all your over-regulation and over taxing we have become a second rate place to operate a business. Of course your sorry butt wouldnt know that because you have over-regulated and overtaxed yourself out of a job. Hey, do you want us to retrain you too? Isnt that the liberal way of doing things?

Look Boob, I dont care what you think of me, but to have such little regard for your fellow citizens is sickening.

Now, go find a politician what you should do next since you are too inept to do it yourself. Perhaps a poor person will give you a job. In the mean time, I will stand by all the kids and do my level best to make sure they have a shot in life. They sure as hell dont get it currently with this embarrassing school system. What a twit!

James R

So you are saying that a mentally disabled child are a physically disabled child is simply the result of the parent not caring? So all those parents that have one or more of these children do not care?

So far I do not see private industry rushing to fill the needs except for those parents who have the money to pay.

So you are saying that private industry will rush to rural area to fill the need of the students? To date they have not.

It is just like the post office. UPS and FEDEX are quick to fill the needs of the profitable, they do not care for the unprofitable. So they do not rush in to deliver the letters and the bills, but they are quick to take the packages. They deliver in rural area’s but not has frequently as the post office and in some parts not at all.

But hey you are giving us your word that private industry will rush in and take care of all this so what do we have to worry about. Not only will they do this but they will do it at a profit, because that is what private industry does.

I now think I will invest with Madoff, after all private industry did such a good job there.

less than zero dave

First of all thank you for saying that you do not care what I think of you. That is such a load off of my mind.

Next I did answer your question, but you chose to ignore it. Yet you go ahead and fail time after time to answer my question. Why is it that you believe an unemployed persons opinion counts for less than an employed person. You are saying 14 million Americans count for less, in your opinion.

So does someone who makes $2 million count for twice as much as someone who makes $1 million? After all you keep going back to me not being employed but you running a business. Of course you ignore what I said about investments, otherwise your scenario would not work.

The funny thing about you complaining about the school ranking 18th in the world, every school system that is ahead of our school system is a publicly ran schools system. YES ran by governments and often with more regulations than we put on our schools. But hey to acknowledge that fact would not fit into your argument.

I bet it is nice in your little world to talk about the failure of the school system because of government while ignoring that the school systems in the rest of the world that are ahead of ours are government ran.

It is really nice in your world to cherry pick your arguments.

You look at the STL school system and say government run systems do not work. I look at Fergueson-Florissant, Ladue, Clayton, St. Charles, and many more. They are all succeeding.

You fail to acknowledge that the post office delivers mail that no one else will delver and when adjusted for inflation at the same cost as the 1930’s. You wish not to acknowledge the police and firefighters, both government run institutions. You wish to play down the military, government run institution. The FBI, SEC,FDA all government run institutions. Yes bad food gets into our system, but a lot more got in before the GOVERNMENT got involved.

I forget the nuts that were tainted earlier this year. Private industry was more than happy to ignore their own study of the quality of the nuts and kept shipping them until the GOVERNMENT traced it back to them.

Recently we had tainted beef enter the system, private industry was not tracking it, but the GOVERNMENT was more than capable of tracking it back to the source ind instituting a recall.

The military use to feed it self very well, but then it was outsourced. It was nice that Haliburton fed all those thousands of troops in Iraq that did not exist. I do not believe you could trace that mistake back to public schools. The Haliburton brass went to private schools and learned to count there. I guess they did not learn to count very well.

So go ahead and cherry pick, and of course you claim to be on the side of the kids while all of those on the other side just hate kids so we try to screw them over every way we can. In fact we hold meetings on it.

Of course continue your class war as well and dodge answering why you believe the opinion of the unemployed does not count.

Zero Dave

Since the subject is out there why do you hate retired people. If someone is retired and living off of their investments you must see them has a burden on society.

The reason I say that is you appear not to believe that my investments count, though they pay my bills and taxes etc.

So if mine do not count then we all must assume in your eyes those of a retired person’s do not count. The only difference is I am looking for additional employment to enhance my income.

However, if theirs count then why does mine not count though once more it pays my bills.

Only conclusion we can come up with is you feel retired people living off of their investments are not contributors to society.

So Bob, What is your solution to the education problem in this country? We are turning out tons of high school graduates who are asking the question, “Would you like fries with that?” because they have no skills. They can’t balance a checkbook, can’t find Canada on a world map, heck, they can’t even make change unless they have a machine to tell them how much. Colleges have to send a majority of new students to remedial English and math classes because the high schools are sending them students that can’t read or do long division.

In the 1950’s we had the best educational system in the world and the federal government was not involved in it. Education was controlled and funded by the states and local communities. Then along came Lyndon Johnson and his ‘Great Society’ welfare state and Jimmy Carter and his new Department of Education (which we survived almost 200 years without). This is when the downhill trend began.

Today our public schools are teaching sight words to elementary school students. What happened to phonics? These kids see a new word and don’t know how to pronounce it because they can’t sound it out. They don’t know the sounds various combinations of letters make.

The public schools experiment with every hare brained scheme that comes down the road. That means they’re experimenting with your kids! Private schools are still teaching phonics, basic math, fractions, algebra, trigonometry (how many of today’s high school student take trig), English grammar and literature, geography, history and that pesky thing that keeps getting in the way of all the liberal ideas, the U.S. Constitution.

In other words, they’re still teaching the basics.

Get the federal government out of the education business and put it back in the hands of the states and local communities and we might have a chance of turning this problem around. We would also eliminate another useless, unneeded bureaucracy.

Also, for your information, the Post Office is a legal monopoly. No private company may deliver regular mail, only special delivery items that UPS and FedEx and other private carriers may deliver. FedEx and UPS don’t deliver regular mail because by law they can’t. If they could, the post office would be out of business in six months.

So, my suggestion is to get the federal government out of public education and put it back in the hands of the states and local communities since they know best what is impacting their communities and states. What’s your suggestion?

I see some good points made by all, Bob and Superdave included. Dave is right, government is failing our children. Then again Bob has a point as well, public schools play by different rules than private schools.

The biggest problem I see is the state setting the class requirements for students. When I went through public schools, we were required to have 3 years of English. I have no problem with that except the state didn’t set guidelines for what should be covered. I still can’t figure out why Shakespeare is so crucial to the English language and why I had to endure it each of those 3 years. Where was the variety such as Mark Twain or Tolkein. Of those 3 years, only in one semester were we allowed any kind of choice, there I got to read Lord of the Flies which I felt was well above Shakespeare.

I graduated from public schools in St Charles county. I learned that Daniel Boone lived and died in St Charles county the summer AFTER graduation. That same summer I also learned that St Charles was the site of Missouri’s first capital. In my view this was a failing of the schools I attended though some districts covered it and visited there. I think when the state requires certain courses, there should be greater guidelines covering what is taught. When they require Missouri history, they apparently don’t specify what part of our history should be taught.

Is government the full solution to the problem? Absolutely not. At current school districts are being run like big business. No offense here Dave but your being a business owner, I still bet you don’t run it like big business. Big business believes in big overhead that is justified by large cash flow, justified to them at least. I see a need for the NEA and other unions. Take a close look at the conditions that support personnel work under and I think you would see what teachers would deal with otherwise. If conditions were so good, why did one school district have buses parked in front of many of the schools supporting banners stating they were hiring drivers? The buses were there for 2 full years and that was before the economic meltdown. I think that speaks volumes and confirms everything I have heard from drivers I know.

All in all, the state is requiring the course load but not the correct one. They set requirements for the course load but not how the districts are managed. The state is helping create the problem while ignoring other problems. In my view, this is why we have both succeeding and failing districts, lack of standards for how a district should be run.

James R and gbones

I do not wish to say that there are not problems in the public system. Even in the best run company there are problems.

First of all though we need to reevaluate the 1950’s and 1960’s. During that period and before if a student was not college material. They were often encouraged to leave school and start their work career. This could be done because you could make a decent living in the factories etc. That is no longer true. The result of these people dropping out was that your better students were making it past the freshman year in High School. This tended to raise the GPA for the class. My own father was encouraged in the 1930’s to leave after 10th grade.

It was also easier for schools to expel students. Part of the reasoning here was once again the student was disruptive so he should go out and find a job to pay his bills. This is no longer an option.

Many of these students were not even counted has drop outs if they were leaving for work so the dropout rate was considered to be lower. That is if the school even kept a record of drop outs.

The point being is some evaluation needs to be done when you compare today’s test scores and drop out rates to the 1950’s. The 1950’s were cooked to give them a higher GPA and lower drop out rates. It was not done in order to hide anything they just were following normal practice of the day.

Your list of subjects “teaching phonics, basic math, fractions, algebra, trigonometry (how many of today’s high school student take trig), English grammar and literature, geography, history and that pesky thing that keeps getting in the way of all the liberal ideas, the U.S. Constitution.”.

My nephews who are in High School have taken all of these. With the exception that Trig. is an option and was in the 1960’s. One has had it the other probably will choose not to take it. I know they have had these by getting phone calls every once in awhile on subjects. When my one nephew was about 10 I was showing him binomials and polynomials and he got all excited. I found out then that they would study them the next year. I know History because they will cross check some of their information with me. The rest of math, well if you offer trig you have to go through the basics and fractions to get there. My nephew who graduated 12 years ago, I was talking to him one day because I thought he might not be understanding the Constitution. He surprised me when he mentioned Marbury v Madison. Of course as we all know since we went through High School before it all went to hell, that was the Supreme Court decision that established judicial review. In other words he got that from his studies on the Constitution.

So in the end I do not know what school district you are talking about that does not teach those subjects. However, if they are not being taught then that was a decision at the local level and not the national level.

As for the changes I listed some of them in an earlier posting.

GBONES

When I went through High School I had the same thoughts on Shakespear. What good would it be.

Sometimes I think Shakespsear has taught is lost on High School students. It is difficult to read in the form that they used at the time and is even harder to follow when listened to. I think it should be taught by playing a CD of each play then discussing the play.

I still have trouble following Shakespear but once you get into the flow it is such a beautiful thing to follow and you can often figure out what they said by the flow.

We often do not realize what subjects they address. For instance the “Merchant of Venice” addressed how Jews were treated, but had a bunch of sub plots. Such has women were capable of doing everything that a man was and did not need to be subjected to a secondary roll.

It talks of the fine points of the law, the Merchant was promised by contract that if not repaid he could cut his “Pound of Flesh” from the borrower. The lawyer, who was a woman disguised as a man after being told she as a woman could not understand the law, pointed out that the contract called for the Pound of Flesh but not one drop of blood. So the Merchant could have his pound of flesh but violated the contract if in doing so he tool one drop of blood.

Go rent Henry V, by Branagh. The Saint Crispin speech he gives before Agincourt makes you wish to pick up a sword and follow him into battle. Your blood stirs as he talks about “My Brothers my Band of Brothers, for those of you who shed your blood with me today are truly my brother…”.

In Much Ado About Nothing as the one character is explaining why she is not seeking marriage, “If he wears a beard then I am not for him and if he wears one not then he is not for me”.

In Loves Labors Lost, as the French Princess is about to leave to attend her fathers funeral and she and the king fear that their found love is to be lost. She could have said wait a year, but said “Go away an cloister yourself. When 12 celestial periods have passed if you are for me then I am for you.”.

In Ceaser, where Ceaser is returning from a public event having taken ill. The description is clear that he had a epileptic attack. It is surprising that Shakespear knew that Ceaser was afflicted by this in real life.

I could go on but I think I made my point. There is much enjoyment that I have gotten from Shakespear, after High School, but I doubt if I would have looked again if not exposed in High School.

Not so Super Dave goes on and on railing on the horrible condition of public education…yet his wife works in public education. What a hypocrite. If you’re going to talk the talk Dumb Dave then you need to walk the walk. How much money did your wife get from public education last school year? Did you enjoy the health care provided for you and your family? I don’t know what schools you are talking about but the ones I know of are quality institutions that serve ALL children…not just the run of the mill average students such as your daughter. Quality public education abounds with quality teachers working diligently to provide outstanding learning experiences for all children….average, below average, and well above average. So, instead of criticizing something you know nothing about…take the time to go visit a high quality public school and then shut your trap.

Now, RTI, used appropriately, is an outstanding technique to meet the needs of children that struggle. Doing what is right for all children, no matter their “diagnosis” is the right thing to do. I say if it’s not good enough for YOUR child..then it isn’t good enough for ANY child.

Not So Super Dave will now rant about liberals and how stupid we are and how we don’t know anything blah blah blah. Save it Dave….we’ve heard it from you about a million times. Same old same old.

Wow, there is nothing I love more than the posting of brilliance. Of course we cannot get that from liberals because that would be an oxymoron.

Lets set the record straight here since reading comprehension seems to be major problem on your side. My wife substituted in a local district, therefore there are NO medical benefits or any other stipends. Its a check for the day. She does it because she cares about the children and want to help in every way she can. There are many good teachers as well as many bad ones. The Administrations and the school boards are the worst but still connot compare to the politicians, especially liberal ones. So, we pay our own health insurance, among many others. In fact, I pay for lots of peoples health costs besides my family.

Facts are facts! Our educational system ranks very low and has been getting worse every year at a cost that is beyond belief. I know facts bother you and failure obviously is ok with you but it sure isn’t with me.

So, while you write your vile comments please come up with some facts. Good intention means very little to nothings. It’s results that count. From where I see it your side is failing miserably. Oh, lets not forget the indoctrination that your side enjoys every school day. It’s really very interesting how your side wants the kids earlier and earlier. Oh yes, to educate them. How’s that working for you? Thanks for the comedy!

As usual, all of you are too busy throwing around childish, political nonsense here that you miss the point entirely. How shocking.

It doesn’t really matter who is running the show here people. The real problem with education in this country is not who is running it! The problem is our entire society’s attitude on this subject. In general, our society puts more of an emphasis on money, sports and looks than on intelligence.

There are exceptions. Some families make it known to their children from an early age that the number one priority is their education. They stress that average grades are not good enough. I did not grow up in one of these families. I love my parents, and they did the best they could, but sports and popularity were definitely more appreciated in my house than good grades.

It doesn’t matter if the government is running the show, or if private business is. If we don’t decide as Americans that we value intelligence and academic excellence above all of the other nonsense, we will never have a good academic system. As usual, the responsibility lies within the home, and within each of us. We make our own destiny.

And one thing is for sure… Schools need to start offering classes on basic human respect and kindness. Because that is definitely something that is missing here in this blog. (yes, Bob and Dave, I am talking to you!)

Joey

I am not here to apologize my postings.

I disagree with you concerning the educational problems being based on the over emphasis in looks, sports, money etc. You are looking at just the American system and you would be correct if the other societies emphasized education over sports, money, looks, etc. All the European societies have the same emphasis and yet they rate ahead of the American system.

The question is what changed in the American system. One of them is as I have said that there was a change in emphasis in retaining students. In the 1950’s and even 1960’s if you were challenged academically you were urged to leave school and start a career. You could find solid employment in factories, etc that provided a good income. That is no longer true, in most cases. We try to retain these students as a result they lower the GPA of their graduating class.

That is not to mean that they should be discarded. However, more and better and relevant trade classes should be offered. I do not know what it is like today, but not that long ago you could get training in the technical schools to be a printer. The problem was that the techniques the schools were teaching were out of date as soon as they graduated.

Even with the drop in construction there are studies that say that not to far in the future there will be a severe need for carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc. Why not open classes so that those that will never go to college learn these careers in High School. I know that some this will require them actually to construction sites.

At the same time when cuts are made make it a law that before classes can be cut the sports programs must be cut?

For the gifted students offer more advanced classes. They are not only harder but allows one to earn credit towards college.

Specialize some of the classes. When I went to High School the same teacher who taught history taught the Constitution. Few of them were capable of doing both. Why not have a separate Constitution class?

The special needs students are a different issue. If there is enough of them to warrant a teacher then teach in the school. If the number does not warrant the teacher then out source.

To compare the public schools to the charter or private schools is ridiculous. They non public schools get to choose their students, can expel the student much easier, they can make demands on parents that public schools cannot, and they must try to educate the student no matter what the disability or problems the student might have.

If we dissolved the public school system that leaves a large number of questions. Assuming we go to a voucher system we still have the following questions and probably more. Who administers the voucher system? Will there be a minimal standards that the schools must meet? Do the vouchers include transportation, so if you live in South County and go to school in North County because of the curriculum how much of the transportation is paid for by the vouchers? Are we going to guarantee that schools are accessible to all students, meaning will we be sure that there are sufficient number of schools in the inner city and they will not all open in the county? How do you decide who gets into each school, are we going to allow the schools to decide etc. for the schools might all fight for the better students? How do we evaluate a school? i.e. if all the good students do go to one school and the bad students to another then one school has a high GPA and the other a low GPA. Is that how we evaluate the schools or do we evaluate them by doing the best with what they have? If we do evaluate them by them doing the best with what they have who evaluates them? Assuming we use the voucher system how do you certify or de-certify a school? A school receiving voucher money might be turning out nothing but straight A students, but that might be because they set such low standards that it is difficult not to get an A. They then advertise that they have all these A students and the cycle just continues.

I know some argue that wanting to fix the public school system is pandering to politicians and unions. However, it is a better alternative than abolishing and then just hoping that private industry steps in a meets the needs and does it for the same cost. Remember private industry does not wish to break even, their goal is to meet the cost plus make a profit.

So you might not like the tone etc. of the exchange. I am not here to defend or apologize. It is actually easier here than other sites.

Joey, this is one time I will disagree with you. The statement saying that it doesnt matter who is running the show is quite naive. So, by your statement it doesnt matter who is the leader is what you are saying? How about this country right now? How about every single family? How about business? Leadership is everything and at this point the government dictates what is taught and how it is taught. I am really surprised by your comments.

One earlier person mentioned about bringing it back to the local leadership and I can agree with most of that. However, with our current politicians that will never happen. They want that indoctrination, period. The educational system is not based on the lowest common denominator. What kind of success do you get from that? Try the current system, which of course ultimately is a failure. You cannot tell me that when the US is rated in the bottom 20 that that’s a positive.

So, you might want to rethink your position.

Is there any way we can organize a cage match between Bob and Superdave?

She couldn’t handle me on her best day! LOL

“at this point the government dictates what is taught and how it is taught”

That was a false statement. James R complained that a whole list of classes are not offered in public schools. I know my nephews have taken or plan on taking every subject he listed. So if James R is in the know then he is talking about a different school district than my nephews. Which would mean that the local district chooses the subjects or James R is flat wrong.

I have relatives that work in school districts. They only need to follow federal rules on subjects if they accept federal money. The biggest difference is the no child left behind. That does put more pressure in what emphasis is made on the schools. Even there though if certain federal funding is bypassed then a school district is not subject no child left behind. Some school districts bypassed the money because they would not get enough money to cover the cost of the changes.

So when the Federal government dictates rules it is generally because the local school district is accepting specific Federal Monies.

50 to 1 on superdave, round 1 KO

Magnum, thanks for the confidence and the smile. We have to stick together! These people are nuts! I played hockey for years and learned to handle any size!