I both agree and disagree with Gordo. I don’t think Duncan has gotten a rougher ride, I just think the criticism is unfairly personal. As Tony likes to say ‘these are the big leagues’. Fine, so Duncan should be criticised for the awful at-bats he has taken. That’s fair and Ankiel gets just as much abuse - deservedly so. What is unfair is that people, (I wouldn’t call them fans) then use the easy family connection to bitterly spite Duncan.

The frustration has been mutual for both players, the form of the criticism on Duncan is what separates the two. Maybe that is a distinction without a difference, but I think it is the difference when talking about fans vs. fair weather fans.

Thank you, Joe Strauss. Is he the only reporter (rather than Cardinals mgmt apologist)? I’m not the type to boo any Cardinal, but I have been pushing for a move (Mgmt finally got the hint and have optioned Chris to AAA).

Yes, being a coaches’ son makes Chris more of a target, but if he was producing, this would be a non-issue. He is not a defensive player, so he must produce offesively and he hasn’t been–for a long time. If he is injured, then he shouldn’t be on the roster. If he “tries hard,” then give him a cookie.

I agree something needs to be done with Ankiel, too (but at least he isn’t a defensive liability), but don’t give me this Rasmus-stuff. We know he is as inexplicably looked down at by mgmt and some media members. In Tony’s words, it makes me sick. He HAS produced this season. He is in a short slump. Ankiel and Duncan have simply done nothing this year.

Don’t you think Tony puts the spotlight on Chris by always being so defensive
when he is critized. And his stats have been questionable for a lot longer then Ankiel and Rasmus. This has been going on for 2 seasons. Injuries and surgery surely played a role in his stats but that is more the reason why he should’ve been in Triple A regaining his old form.

re: slack, Duncan didn’t slam his face full bore into the wall. Until very recent no one said anything about Chris hurting.

Second point: Why are we to presume Tony only notes the fans as critics? You guys have also mounted quite the anti-Duncan campaign, pilloried him big time the past two days. I’m not saying he didn’t deserve the criticism, but did *the fans* promote forum threads ripping him into headline items?

GOOLD: “One person with the team told me earlier this season that the best thing for Duncan would be to hit well, hit for power, and hit his way into a trade.”

Been sayin’ that for a loooong time. I’ve tried to defend his defense, but it’s just too much. His only position is 1B, and that’s taken.

Duncan and Ankiel are both awful right now. Ankiel has admitted he is not 100% after slamming into the wall a few weeks ago. Tony just said yesterday that Duncan is not 100%, so why are they in the lineup??? Is that not what AAA is for?

Duncan may get it a little rougher than Ankiel, but Duncan brings nothing valuable to the table when he is in such a terrible slump…Atleast Ankiel brings good defense to the table, Duncan can’t catch a cold out there in left field, which is why he needs to be traded to an AL team who can stick him in at DH and at first on occasion. TLR is wayyyyy to defensive with Duncan.

I feel the fans are harder on him because they think nepotism is in play. Why aren’t the fans equally hard on Thurston, Rasmus and Ankiel? Rasmus was deemed the can’t miss superstar that every team wanted in trade talks. Why are the fans giving him a pass? I know Rick Ankiel’s story, but when do we start expecting him to produce up to his potential?

The team is struggling. Fans want the team to win. Criticizing players who aren’t performing is natural but the venom I hear in fan comments concerning Chris Duncan makes me think I’m listening to the Philadelphia fans. Either than fans should give Chris a break or maybe Chris should seek a change of scenery.

Seriously, Goold? You’re comparing a 22 year old rookie who’s in the midst of a possible rookie of the year campaign who’s hitting .270 with power and plays great defense, to a 28 year old veteran who is a poor defensive player, is batting .220 with 5 measly HR’s and has done virtually nothing over the past two years? Seriously?

Are the media absolved of any role in this? It is not just the fans that have gotten on Chris. You all can’t take a “holier than thou” attitude on this one, boys.

For me, it has nothing to do with Dave Duncan. Both Chris Duncan and Rick Ankiel should go on the DL if they are hurt or to the minors to work out their problems. If they are hurt, the Cardinals have no one to blame but themselves for not being honest with the fans.

The over-riding objection I have to Tony’s rant is him throwing Brendan Ryan under the bus in his comments. Ryan is doing a great job for us this year and if he had an 0 for 3 day, so be it. He did not deserve Tony’s remarks.

Yes, Ankiel’s numbers are worse (although his defense is better, so at least he is of SOME use to the team now). But Tony went way too far in comparing Duncan to Rasmus. Yes, Rasmus is in a slump - but his slump hasn’t lasted ALL YEAR LONG like Duncan’s. Duncan could have won over (most of) the fan base by playing average baseball, but he didn’t.

Khalil Greene has exactly half the number of at bats as Duncan this season… but the same number of homeruns. And Duncan is supposed to be our power guy?

Thank you, DG. You are exactly right. The problem has become that the noise of the unfair criticisms has become such a roar that it is impossible to hear the very fair criticisms that are currently being aimed at the entire organization. However, though I appreciate the very real pain and surgery that Duncan underwent, this organization should not be putting him a position to fail if he has not recovered. If his current struggles are, as I suspect, due to his injury, then he should have been optioned a long time ago. I don’t need the dunderhead in the manager’s seat calling me names for criticizing the performance of the player or the decision of the manager to put him in there.

If TLR thinks we should keep Duncan and and continue to plat him, then maybe it is time to get rid of TLR as well. Ankiel and Rasmus aren’t doing much better hitting but they are both miles ahead fielding and running the bases adnRasmus is just a rookie so you have to cut him some slack. If Duncan is hurt and that is affecting his play I can understand that, but then why is he playing? Either way it is TLR’s fault. Either put him on the DL or send him down. Right now they are wasting 3 roster spots between Duncan, Ankiel and Wellmeyer. If Luhnow is right and our minor league teams are loaded with prospects, then get some up here or trade for bodies that can play in the majors. Right now the team is going into every game short handed.

Sending him to Memphis was the best thing for him. I think a change of scenery will help him as well as just a chance to work on his swing every day. I don’t think the criticism is at Duncan, but more towards TLR for sticking him out there when he knows he isn’t 100% and from results possibly not even 75%. I know Stavinoha, Ankiel, and Rasmus have been slumping lately, but I think putting Colby back in the 2 hold and leaving him there for the rest of the season (no matter what hand the pitcher throws with) will help him. Something like this:
1) Skip
2) Colby
3) DUH!
4) Ludwick
5) DeRosa
6) Ankiel/Stavinoha or Yadi if Thurston starts
7) Yadi
Pitcher (if he insists on doing it)
9) Ryan

and leave it this way for a while and see how things click.

At least Ankiel is a very good defensive outfielder. Poor Chris is just awful.

I think for some “so called fans” Chris is the weapon of a Zero Sum game. They don’t like Tony, but how to tear him down when he gets us in the playoffs over 50% of the time and is a HOF bound manager, well tear down Dave Duncan to indirectly get at Tony, except that Dave Duncan is recognized throughout baseball as a truly gifted coach, maybe someday the first coach to break the HOF barrier…so their solution is to attack Chris Duncan for any weakness he shows on the field, at bat, in his ability to stay healthy(after all they drone on and on he only plays because of nepotism and favoritism). For those “so called fans” attacking Chris is simply the only way to tear down Dave, and therefore Tony. I think real fans understand that someone like Chris Duncan who wears the Birds on the Bat so proudly, and has worked so hard to contribute to our team deserves our support and encouragement. Good luck at AAA Chris, I hope that you get your swing back and return to St. Louis to help us get our XI World Series.

ankiel and rasmus and brendan ryan can play above average defense, duncan cant

ankiel and rasmus have great arms, duncan doesnt

ankiel and rasmus and brendan ryan all run much better than chris duncan

cards fan do not want him to fail, we have watched him not produce for 2 and a half seasons
injury or not, its time to move on

im one of his biggest critics and id love to be proven wrong for the sake of the team
i dont care who his dad is, my eyes tell me hes one of the worst guys to man the outfield in ages, and this town has loved john mabry and bo hart
you dont have to be a star to be loved here
you just have to stop striking out looking, letting routine fly balls drop for hits …..

and yes ankiel is just as bad with the bat

I would like to add that while Duncan, Ankiel and Rasmus are all struggling at the plate right now, Duncan struggles in the field EVERY NIGHT! I would rather have a struggling Ankiel in left, at least he can save us a run now and then in the field. Regarding criticism, it is the big leagues and you must produce, but, I would rather not hear the boos at the park. I am proud of our history of respecting the players on the field. Regarding nepatism, give me a break, if the guy was producing no one would have even looked the word up…

To me, its simple. Obviously the whole nepotism thing will come into play every time he slumps. And its very easy for a passive fan to bash a player that looks clumsy in the outfield. They start thinking “I could do that, this guy is garbage” regardless of his plate performance.
It is a shame, the guy works as hard as Albert, Schu, Ryan or anyone else. I hope he turns it around, ups his trade value and gets a fresh start elsewhere.

R B Williams

one thing to remember, Rasmus is a rookie and is bound to struggle, weve been hearing duncan is gonna be on track any day now since mid 2007

If i worked for my dad and failed he would fire me.Stop crying Tony

I think that a lot of the fan frustration with this whole situation came about as a result of Tony’s willingness to play Duncan over Ludwick even when it was obvious that Duncan was struggling.

Love Jimmy got it right. The fan frustration comes when La Russa puts Duncan in the lineup over Ludwick. I undertstand there are matchups, but play Ludwick everyday no matter who is pitching. Our postseason relies on Ludwick hitting and not Duncan.

I’ve thought this for awhile now. Duncan’s story - promising young player, broke out from minors and put together a great few months, suffered injury, never fully recovered - is sad, but unfortunately common. Unfortunately, his dad being the pitching coach means he’s subject to an unusual level of scrutiny. I’ve frankly never understood the charges of nepotism: lots of organizations will give a player who’s previously shown promise a chance to work his way back from injury. And it’s not as if the Cardinals are swimming in offensive options.

I think too, to be fair, we should recognize that some of the people who have criticized Duncan so harshly are just jerks. We may be Cardinal Nation and have the best fans in baseball (which I typically agree with), but we can’t ALL be saints. Even at Cardinal games, some of the idiots do wear red, and some of them must have Internet accounts and time on their hands.

That said, pointing out that some of Duncan’s detractors are jerks doesn’t do much to defend his batting average or lack of power. Chris Duncan doesn’t deserve all the vitriol and venom he gets for his performance and family connections. He does deserve (and probably need), though, the demotion to Memphis, based on his performance. Here’s hoping he can quietly recover out of the spotlight and do himself and his organization some good.

It’s not fair to Duncan NOT to trade him, regardless of what the team can get in return. As long as he plays here and doesn’t excel, the criticism will be that he plays because of his dad and LaRussa’s relationship with his dad. He’s also playing out of position and will never been an even average left fielder, it appears. Plus, LaRussa can simply not be objective about him and never will be. He has benched, sent down, or gotten rid of players who have performed better than Duncan has for about two full seasons now.
Duncan needs to go the American League and get a fair start, where if he succeeds, it will be on his own merits and if he fails, no one will claim he’s still around because of his dad.

Regardless of the name on the back of the jersey Cardinal fans would be asking for an upgrade in left field if the player is not producing.

Would it really be news that the LF was sent to AAA if his last name wasn’t Duncan and his dad was a coach? Probably not since the guy coming up has comparable numbers and no one made a fuss when he was sent down to AAA for not producing.

Duncan has potential to be a good player on a roster, but at this time he is not. In a tight race for 1st we need as many players as possible that can help this team win. Unfortunately I like most fans dont think Duncan helps this team win. Ankiel isn’t much better, but he brings defensive to the table which has value.

First of all, I do criticize Ankiel’s playing as well. However, Ankiel can play defense, run, and has a better arm than duncan. Duncan could only hit once upon a time. That was his only attribute. I do not like watching Ankiel struggle either, but he can help in the field.

I’d be fine with Ank going down too, face it Ank is good defensively and has more speed, but they’ve been almost twins at the plate. My bar for Ank at the plate is lower due to more tools / defense. Dunc, it’s all what he can do on offense. Never bought into father / son. Some times Tony is too loyal to a fault. Injuries or not, production matters.

I do not think that the fans are being too hard on Chris Duncan. His numbers this season are not acceptable for a team that is playing its home games at busch stadium. However, I do feel that, if those critics are going to complain about Duncan, then they should be complaining about Ankiel as well. I don’t care how good someone’s D is, hitting .213 at the start of last nights game is not material that needs to be in the majors. Get rid of both of them. If they are hurt then put them on the DL. If not, send them to the minors until they get themselves straightened out.

With so many struggling to hit, one has to wonder where the real problem is? I mean no named pitchers come and destroy time and time again. 9.00 ERA? Shoot, we are doomed against that. Scouting or hitting coaches need to be on alert if you ask me.

Now, I think Duncan has struggled for a year and a half. His defense is subpar. Fans notice this. When he first came up, he hit well with poor defense and the fans accepted that. None of this attitude has anything to do with his father other than it seems obvious that he is sticking around longer than others who perform better.

Rick Ankiel is very good defensively still, and many teams employ a weak hitting outfielder for late inning defense. He still has value with that, and with the hope he returns to his old hitting self. He has not played himself out of a roster spot yet.

I am amazed that Joe Thurston is still on the team. He is a team leader in errors, and cannot hit at all. No one seems to care about that? I’d rather see Tyler Green playing backup than Thurston. If he has options left, he should go to Memphis too.

They need to find an injury to put Wellemeyer on the DL with. Give him a couple weeks to find himself with a rehab start or two. His replacement can’t be any worse. Brad Thompson did better than Wellemeyer, though I’d rather have Boggs or Hawksworth in the 5th spot getting some ML experience.

Brendan Ryan should be the everyday shortstop period.

The Boston herald is reporting that the Cards just traded Duncan to the Red Sox for Julio Lugo…sox will pay balance of Lugo’s contract. With Sox also acquiring Adam LaRoche from the Pirates for minor leaugers, they say Duncan is going to Triple A Pawtucket. I always like’d his swing and his attitude when I saw him play, but he looks like a 4A player to me…could be an end of the bench player like Baldelli, or Laroche for that matter.

Duncan has been playing out of position for several years now. His outfield gaffes were worse than some high school games I’ve seen. That being said, IF he’s playing in pain, that’s pretty stupid! His body needs time to heal and he’s either choosing to ignore that OR Cards mgmt is, which I can’t figure out WHY since the guy’s been in a funk at the plate for WEEKS now.

MLB.com just discussed this topic, specifically Tony LaRussa’s vomit comment, which was contained in a graphic. Ken Rosenthal said, and I quote, he believes that Chris Duncan “did get an extended look” and that he “had to agree” that Duncan got a “longer leash” with the Cardinals than other teams would have given him. Rosenthal continued, “On the Cincinnati Reds I don’t know if he’s there that long.” Just reporting what I heard.

This is what really PO’s me, I would have loved for Chris Duncan to have been successful, but he wasn’t, he wasn’t just mediocre, he was God-awful, and he’s been defended to a nauseating level by TLR. The same certainly applies to Rick Ankiel and Joe Thurston and Todd Wellemeyer. None of those guys should be occupying a spot on this roster. But for some reason known only to GOD, I’m sorry known only to Tony, they were until today. There is more deadwood on this team than I can remember in ages. I understand the emotional attachment to Duncan and Ankiel, but I have an emotional attachment to the team as a whole and they are not helping and in fact are hurting the club. There are guys at Memphis who deserve a chance to show they can do better than those 4 guys and for what ever reason TLR had dug in his heels, apparently just to show us he could. I guess MO must have grown a pair, because this must have been a suprise to Tony and Dave, I can’t imagine they really agree with this. Bet this is the beginning of the end for TLR and DD in St. Louis, which I really hate to see, but TLR’s handling of this has left less in his corner.

Chris Duncan hit .207 in the 2nd half of 2007, .248 in 2008, and .227 in 2009. That’s 2 and a half years of incompetence at the plate. Which of the other alternatives have that kind of track record of failure? He proved in his first half season that he had the talent to be a great hitter, but that was 3 years ago. He’s been horrible since then. No matter what the reason, he was not a major league quality baseball player, and there was no excuse for him still being on the active roster. I’m perfectly willing to believe his struggles have all been related to injury, but if that’s true, then that’s an even worse indictment of LaRussa and the blind spot he clearly had for Chris. Tony had no business making Chris try to work through his injury problems at the major league level. That was unfair to Chris and gave the fans no choice but to express their 2 and a half years worth of exasperation on Chris. There is a blind spot regarding Duncan, and it’s Tony’s blind spot. And Duncan was treated extremely unfairly, but it was Tony who was unfair to him, not the fanbase. And the fanbase is far too intelligent to have any patience with LaRussa trying to blame us for his idiotic decision to keep playing an outfielder who clearly could not perform at a major league level.

To Rick - I understand you are trying to contrast Chris Duncan with Rick Ankiel, and while Duncan never had the fan support that Rick received, it’s way off base to claim that Redbirds fans were rooting for Chris not to succeed. Nobody expected him to put up Pujols numbers (at least I hope not), they just wawnted to see a minimum of near major league average production from their LF. If you’re not going to get that you might as well not take the defensive hit of trotting him out to LF to watch him butcher what appear to be routine flyballs for a MLB outfielder. Perhaps that’s why the fans can’t figure out why TLR kept putting his name on the line up card. I’m sure somebody can come up with a defensive metric that shows Duncan wasn’t the worst defensive outfield option we had, but if it walks like a Chris Duncan and talks like a Chris Duncan, it’s probably not a good defensive outfielder.

TLR has nobody to blame but himself for turning Chris into a lightning rod. Well himself and whoever made the call to keep running the injured version out there instead of getting on the DL.

Rick, your Chris Duncan apologia makes me want to vomit.

I do not think that Chris Duncan was on the team because of who his father is. He made it to STL on his own talent. I think that Cardinal fans believe he was given more 2nd chances, and more playing time because of who he is. Yes, Rick Ankiel is having as hard of a time getting going as Duncan. It was like watching to see who got to the .200 ave first. Both player are hurt still, but maybe Ankiel gets more room for error. Because his up side is so much higher than Duncan’s. Fielding,Running,Hitting,All around talent when healthy. And he has been with us for so long.Good luck Chris getting out of the shadow will be good. We were upset with La Russa more than you. For putting you out there when you weren’t ready

Who’s this Duh guy that somebody’s batting third?

Does anybody suspect that regardless of where the team finishes, this might be the incident that spells divorce between the Cardinals and LaRussa after the season? Whether he’s cheesed off about Chris Duncan being sent down against his will, or whether management is beginning to doubt TLR’s judgment (both on and off the field for attacking fans like that and throwing productive players like Ras and Ryan under the bus in the process), I wonder if one or both sides are realizing that the time to part ways is inevitably nigh. Maybe Tony’s even decided that he’s tired of St. Louis, not just the team but the city and the fans.