Has anyone heard when Wellemeyer is sposed to come back? Not that I’m really looking forward to it but I don’t care for Boggs either and I as well think they should stick to the plan and put Smoltz in the pen after a couple more starts.

Everyone keeps talking about coasting to the playoffs and while yes I believe we can coast to a Central Division title, I also believe we should keep pushing hard to get home field advantage because it’s a big deal especially when your going places like Philly and Colorado possibly. I believe home field advantage will play a huge role in whether we get to the WS especially going to Coors Field or Citizens Bank. Also I really hope the Yanks or Redsoxs don’t make it to WS if we do because going to NY or Boston to play the first two is a whole other world as we found out in 2004.

I also wanted to comment about Smoltz point that hasn’t been brought up but was made into such a big deal before his start Left handed hitters and that San Diego stacked their lineup yesterday w/ lefties and switch hitters which had 6of9 batting from the left side. Now given they are the Padres but he still retired left handed hitters which he was not doing before which shows he truly did make improvements and I’m puzzled why no reporter has brought up the fact about how San Diego went w/ as much possible lefthanded hitting and Smoltz handled it.

I always thought that you could get by with 3 starters in the division series, but the NLCS and World Series usually require 4 starters.

According to Fraley and Wheeler, this is not the case?

It’s hard to imagine the Cards won’t try to get the most out of Smoltz as a starter until the playoffs begin. As for Gerry Fraley’s cya disclaimer, you need to have a look at who Smoltz pitched against in the AL. Only the Rangers and Yankees have formidable lineups. Clearly the Cardinals saw something Smoltz was doing and are working to correct it. This guy isn’t some average pitcher or athlete. He obviously got something left. My guess is he’ll be around next year with someone and will pitch effectively.

You can definitly get by w/ 3 starters in WS and usually NLCS as long as there is off days between going to stadiums which is usually the case.

How delicious would it be if the Cards ended up in the Series against Boston and Smoltz appeared at a critical moment? I would love to see that.

Unless you’re planning to pitch someone on three days rest (which as we all know is off limits these days), then you definitely need a 4th starter to pitch one game in a 7 game series (like NLCS or WS). The travel days are enough to allow teams to avoid using a 5th starter but a 4th starter is still necessary (again, assuming no on goes on short rest).

Also, the 4th starter may be needed for more than one start depending on how far the previous round goes. For example, if your number 1 starter is forced to pitch in game 7 of the NLCS then you’ll likely have to shake up the order in the World Series.

I live up in Chicago and you should hear the media crying… some of them actually think the Cubs still have a chance. I just smile and wear my Cardinal Red!

They give an off day after game 2 and then after game 6 in both series this year so yes both NLCS and WS are able to go 3man rotation w/ 4day rest

How does that crow taste Fraley?

Gotta admire Mr. Fraley and his ability to stick by his opinion in the face of facts. Did he even see the game on Sunday? Broadly dissing the Padres’ hitters offers nothing in the way of recognizing what Smoltz was doing out there. Seven in a row may be a Cardinal record. Anyone stop to think that maybe there have been some really awful teams the Cards have played in the last 10,000 games and no one could mow down seven?

Does Mr. Fraley realize that plans change every day based on circumstances? Did anyone happen to mention that the play-off line-up cards aren’t due in today? So why would you marry yourself to the starters and the relievers already? As John Maynard Keynes said, “When the facts change I change my opinion. What do you do?”

I recognize that there are news people and opinion people and Mr. Fraley is in the second group, but it would be better to have more thoughtful opinions. And that is mine.

Excellent point Mick about the left handed hitters. I hadn’t seen that mentioned anywhere else either.

7 Ks in a row IS a Cards record. In any case, seeing him working well against any team at this point is refreshing. Padres or not, Smoltz had something going out there that he can build on. Before we crown this the “Murderer’s Row” of pitching staffs, though, let’s give him a few more starts.

You’ve got to be kidding me, right Mike? Asking a guy how crow tastes after 1 freaking start? Come on. Let’s have some perspective here. I haven’t yet called for the 99% of posters on these boards to eat their crow over the Derosa signing yet, just in case he happens to have a miraculous turn-around between now and the end of the season. But I am completely convinced that I was correct in saying, repeatedly, that Derosa was nothing but a waste of prospects. I also believe his pitiful .237BA and .313OBP would completely justify that assessment.
Just hold off on the crow eating.
And let’s also hope Wellemeyer never comes back.

Mick

Great point about the lefties. They seemed endless in that line-up. Smoltz should have dispelled two urban legends yesterday. Can’t get lefties out and can’t get through the line-up more than once. My problem with all the guys that are saying ‘let’s see him do it again’ is that they are overweighting the data from 8 starts earlier this year vs. the data of a twenty year career and what they saw with their own eyes yesterday. That makes no sense.

It is always prudent to be cautious in baseball, but prudence is not the same as negative.

Letz do it! Git ur done.

Hey Chosen One, the reason Mike was telling Fraley to eat crow was because he basically said last week that Smoltz was washed up as a starting pitcher. Well, he didn’t look like a guy who was washed up to me. Fraley and you obviously don’t seem to realize that Smoltz was still facing major league hitters on Sunday and striking out 7 of them in succession is impressive.

Oh, and if you really believe DeRosa wasn’t a good acquisition then you have about as much baseball acumen as Mr. Fraley.

Don’t forget that his first game was against San Diego!!! I give Duncan/LaRussa credit for scheduling him for the last game with San Diego giving Schmoltz/the team/fans the highest chance of a positive experience. Low an behold, it worked! Now reality….give it time.

Wasn’t he also tipping his pitches? Maybe that was a contributor to a high ERA.

Smoltz should absolutely stay in the rotation for as many starts as humanly possible. Call him a #4, a #5, whatever you want it doesn’t matter. What he showed Sunday was the same awesome stuff that made him John Freakin’ Smoltz.

You keep Smoltzie in the rotation and let him keep stretching himself out, upone his return you restrict Lohse’s duties to either fifth starter on a limited pitch count or middle bullpen. Come October, no question that Lohse is bullpen, Smoltz is the fourth starter should we make it to the NLCS.

Here’s why: Everyone should be concerned about Lohse contending with the forearm and now also the groin which was surely caused by compensating for the forearm. But just in case one of the Big 3 also has a sudden injury, you’ve got the winningest post-season pitcher in the history of the game shaped into form to start an NLCS or World Series game.

I realize that this approach would probably piss Lohse off royally, but he’s been playing hurt since May and he’s got a multi-year contract, he’ll get over it.

In a 7 game series you have to have a fourth starter to work game four or you have to work your first three starters on short rest the second time through the rotation.

Anyone here want to send Lohse, Wellemeyer, or Boggs out for game four of the World Series against the Yankees.
Neither do I. We need Smoltz as the fourth starter if he can do the job.

From what I saw of tape of the game, which was very little, Smoltz seemed to have a lot of action on his spiltter and to be able to throw it for a strike. If he can do that it doesn’t matter who is batting and I think downplaying his accomplishment, ala ESPN, is failing to acknowledge a remarkable performance. It remains to be seen if he can repeat it but the action on his pitches on Sunday had nothing to do with who was at the plate.

The acquistion of Smoltz came just in time as Lohse is probably out for at least three to four weeks. Smoltz has come in here with something to prove because he is confident he can be a very competent starter. If Smoltz proves to be just as dazzling in his next start against Washington as he was in his last start we could see Mo trade for or sign a solid reliever. Also, if Lohse comes back late he might be better used in the bullpen. So if a trade is made for bullpen help and Lohse is used in the pen the Cards bullpen could be set for there playoff run. IMO the Cards can’t rely on Reyes and Motte to come into an inning when the kettle is steaming, unless they have a lead where a grandslam can’t tie or win the game. That would take some of the pressure off of them and help them relax in the big games. The Cards need a guy that has performed in the fryer. I’d love to see them get Billy Wagner. He could take some heat off Reyes, and Lohse or Smoltz could take it off of Motte. This team is still one ARM away from being rearmed whereby they can raise the red flag and give no quarter in the battles that give no quarter.

smoltz had one good start. nobody should be overly up or down regarding 5 innings for a starting pitcher. see what happens over the course of his first 5 starts before passing judgement. a lot of you will look like undereducated midwesterners if he carries an ERA over 5 between now and then.
and dhaab, you need to read and comprehend the postings of others before commenting, as you look particularly silly with your post. chosen one’s statement is completely accurate. it is impossible to tell if smoltz is washed up or not after but one start. slap yourself into reality, and try to engage your brain.
i’m also on the fence regarding derosa, and each day that goes by, i lean toward it not being a great move. spending those prospects to land a guy with the aforementioned EMBARRASSING batting average in the .230’s and a horrible 15 RBI in 37 games, is not a good deal for the redbirds. those guys could have been spent on another SP, which is and was needed much more than an infielder that can’t hit .300. the cards already have a ton of those.
and his OBP is worse than any starter should have. 13 walks in 147 plate appearances? that’s worse than francoeur!

Smoltz was amazing. Yet this type of performance can’t be expected against good, veteran-laden teams. I agree with Gordon that Mo SHOULD be continually working everyday to upgrade the pitching even still. I had read earlier in the P-D that implied Mo had indicated he was done trading and we’re going with what we have. This would be a costly mistake in terms of playoff success. Home field advantage IS a big deal to be playing for the rest of the regular season. Plus, with Lohse’s season long issues and Motte (and no doubt Wellemeyer pretty soon as well) still left to provide batting practice to good hitters, we’re still down one decent starter and one decent ROOGY short of a fully loaded pitching staff, just as before Smoltz came on board. Good showings against the Padres are not a good barometer for what will be needed when the pressure is on against lineups like the Dodgers & Philly offer.

Hey “Engage” look back on the production from 3rd base before MD came to the team.
Did they overpay, maybe I will wait till the end like you said on JS…
He was not supposed to be Ken Boyer, just better than Joe Thurston..
he is …

Let’s not worry to much about the future, let’s just get the job done first and then all us lounge managers can worry. It must be said, it is bye bye to Wellemeyer. With the off days only three starters are required and coupled with a strong bullpen, the job should be done. Just let TLR do his job and we can sit back and enjoy the rest of the season unfold.

If Smoltz pitches like he did Sunday and can go 6 or 7, he shouldn’t see the bullpen at all.

More pessimism from Fraley, big shocker!

I agree with the poster that noted that there were lefties or switch hitters in 6 of the 9 lineup spots for the Padres. Granted their the Padres, but Smoltz showed that he can still get it done againts lefties.

Padres or not, Smoltz will go out there and compete. Gerry Fraley is an idiot. Now when I read his opinions, it makes me wanna puke!

smoltz should be in the rotation barring a complication. loshe should be the number 5….and in october he should be the long reliever and maybe make a anthony reyes appearence like in 06. wellemeyer should be in the bullpen and thompson should be the odd man out…kinda sucks for brad cause hes got grit and heart but he is just too sloppy with his pitches…u gotta be greg maddox to pitch like that

I made this comment on Burwell’s column also, but it bears repeating. We are talking here about the man with the best playoff record in the history of the world. If he continues in anything close to this mode, you MUST consider keeping him in the starting rotation throughout the playoffs.

“They give an off day after game 2 and then after game 6 in both series this year so yes both NLCS and WS are able to go 3man rotation w/ 4day rest”
— Mick Mick, every year they give an off day after games 2 and 5 (not 6). If Carpenter pitches game 1, four days rest would have him pitching again in game 5, resting for three games and one off day. Four days rest requires a fourth starter for game 4. The game 2 starter would get four days rest and be ready to pitch game 6. Same for starter #3, four days rest lands him at game seven. Unless they have added a third off day in the series, four days rest requires four starters.

In my opinion in a off the subject: I wanna see Boston in the World Series. Pay back is so much sweeter on the Grand Stage!! I trully believe in this team, and as far as Im concerned with the right moves and the right signings this off season we could repeat, but hey Im getting way ahead of myself, I guess I am a Cardinal fan thru and thru and always believes any year could be the year.

Mick,

The reason that nobody mentioned Smoltz’s change of fate against lefties is similar to why nobody mentioned Cliff Lee’s being torched for a .311 average against righties until he threw his first pitch for the Phillies. It’s about now, not then.

Regarding the Cardinals pushing for home field because Citizen’s Bank could be a brutal place to play, it could be worse. The Phils are an awesome road team.

People are wrong to say that a 4th starter is not needed in the post-season. Usually the only way to avoid using a 4th starter is to have the top 3 starters pitch on 3 days rest. This almost always BOMBS and gets the rotation all out of whack. Bobby Cox was notorious for 3-day rests in the post-season and that is probably why the Braves won only one World Championship. The starters need to stay on regular rest. To achieve that, a 4th starter will be needed at some point. I hope that starter will be Lohse, but thankfully it looks like the Cards have a backup plan now.

Mr. Fraley, as I recall, in last weeks column, you wrote “The Cardinals are fooling themselves if they expect to get even a minor contribution from Smoltz”. So, are you going to man up and retract that statement since he just won them a game or are you going to stand by your assertion that the Cardinals are fools? I don’t see you being a man in this column.

I haven’t read all these posts, but, this occurred to me over the weekend, even before Smoltz’s start: Who was pitching when the Yankees scored 20 runs against the Red Sox on Friday(08/21)? And, wasn’t there best pitcher(Beckett) pitching into the 7th inning after giving up 7 earned runs and four homers Sunday against the Yankees ? Who’s the pitching coach for Boston ? Those games tell me Smoltz’s problems with Boston may not all have been of his own making. Perhaps Lugo would agree.
John Pennell.
Nashville, TN

I think Gerry Fraley, The Chosen One, and Engage Your Brain are the same person! Three people exist with such far fetched ideas? Unlikely…

John Pennell,

Brad Penny was pitching against the Yankees on Friday for all of 4 innings and gave up 8 runs. Penny will probably be dropped from the rotation when Wakefield gets back, anyway. Mike Bowden came in for 2 innings after Penny and gave up 7, but he’s got all of 9 innings of experience under his belt, so it’s not a huge surprise. It should be noted that Smoltz’s last start for the Sox was also against the Yankees, where he gave up 8 runs in 3.1 innings. Is it the pitching coach or is it the Yankees?

Beckett went 8 and threw 120 pitches, which isn’t an unnecessarily heavy workload for him, but more importantly, it gave the bullpen a little rest after throwing 8 innings and 174 pitches over the last two days. It seemed to have come in handy as the bullpen threw 85 pitches and 4.1 innings on Monday. Couple all that with the fact that their next off day is next Monday (they are in the middle of 13 straight), and that they have only two days off in September and early October (culminating in 20 straight), and it isn’t necessarily a bad decision.

Vince,

Yes, I meant to mention Smoltz last start before coming to St. Louis was against the Yankees.And yes, I understand
he(Beckett) was protecting the bullpen, but he still did not pitch well and gave up 4 homers, against the same line up Smoltz was released for. But, my main point is that I have to wonder if the Yankees have picked up something against the whole staff(either approaches or pitch tipping or something) because the whole staff was beat up pretty good(except Sat.) And they were rhetorical questions. My main point is that the Boston pitching coaches let Smoltz down, as much as he pitched poorly. How is it that our coaches(St. Louis) and players could find minor tweaks in his delivery and notice that he was tipping his pitches and the Boston staff could or did not ? i think their coaches are as much to blame for Smoltz’s performance in Boston as he was.

Captin America,

I mistyped 6 and while yes they usually give a travel day off after game 2 and 5 each year there have been some years they give 3 off days and some w/ 1 so no they don’t get 2 off days every series always but yes they usually do. And yes 3man rotation is only needed if they feel like using only 3 pitchers by having each pitcher pitch every fourth day so get your calender out and re-look your calculations. Pitcher’s pitch every fifth day in the regular season not every fifth game and in the playoffs they can go to every fourth day. There are nine days w/ 7games and 2 offdays Pitcher 1-Game 1 day 1, game 4 day 5, game 7 day 9 -
Pitcher 2-Game 2 day 2, game 5 day 6,
Pitcher 3 Game 3 day 4, game 6 day 8

So don’t get all smart until you know what you’re talking about

Mick, I can’t make heads or tails of your gibberish or your bad math. Believe what you want, dude. Four days rest requires four pitchers in a seven game series, the fourth pitcher taking game 4.

Mick, the captain’s calculations were correct. You changed yours up, rather than admit that your original statement was wrong. First you state that in a seven game playoff series, you can get by with three pitchers on four days rest. Then when the captain shows that you can’t, you get all flustered and change your calculations to “pitchers only need three days rest in the playoffs. Your need to check your calendar before acting all smart”. Why don’t you just admit you’re a tool, Mick?

Schmoltzie, be Bob Gibson and they’ll shut up!

By the way, I think you can. It’ll be fun to watch you smoke the Phillies and Yankees.