He’s going to have to really love St. Louis to stay here, and that’s possible, but money does talk and I’m sure Boston with that Green Monster will offer him a ton. But maybe the fact that he had some struggles in the AL this year will play into our favor. Maybe he’s at home in the NL, and leery of trying the AL again. If that’s the case, then the Cards chances increase dramatically.

It all comes down to who is in control (Boras or Hollliday). If Boston or New York makes a play expect a contract well over 100 million. The funny thing is, this seems to be a mutually beneficial relationship–he needs St. Louis just as bad as we need him. Securing him long term may be the one piece we need to convince Pujols that we will always care about winning…something to think about as Pujols nears the end of his current contract.

There’s no way the Cardinals will be afford to keep everyone together next year. Holliday/Pujols/Ludwick/Derosa/Schumaker/Molina/Ryan/Ankiel are all due hefty raises and/or pricey new contracts. And that’s not factoring in the money need to retain the rotation of Carp/Waino/Lohse/Pineiro/Smoltz. Good luck Mozeliak — hopefully he has some more magic up his sleeve.

If I could have only hit the curve ball in Highschool.

So it looks like we gave away Wallace and Mortensen for nothing. Maybe we can get Chris Duncan back next year.

As TLR said….

“The baseball gods are waiting to see if any part of the ballclub disrespects them,” La Russa said. “And if we do, they’ll slap us hard.”

No more than 5 years, $80 million. Make this guy prove that he was telling the truth about wanting to win rather than cycling through winning and losing. Few choose the winning path, most take the money and show their real side.

BNC4477, “gave away for nothing”??? How about the wrapped-up Central Div, AND the current best NL team w/a clear shot at home-field advantage AND a legitimate shot at a World Series Title?! Your calculator needs new batteries because you obviously can’t add on your own. Snide comments are all you can add to the discussion?

The problem is he can go to a team that is always in contention to win (ie Yankees, Red Sox) and still pull a 100 million dollar contract. 5 years at 80 mil won’t do the trick. He’ll be looking for 5 at a 100 clip at least and there are at least two teams who will pay it.

Holliday is helping us get to the world series. He’s also in the midst of one of the best auditions (for other teams) I’ve seen in awhile. Yes, he could fall in love with the team and situation, but he will go to the highest bidder, so don’t get attached. NYY and Red Sox will fight over the right to pay him $100M and he will go with the best pay day. As long as he gets us in the WS, I’m ok with the rental.

Why do so few professional athletes, especially the elite ones, talk about the job atmosphere as much as it’s discussed in other job markets?

Elite athletes are going to make $50-100M+ in their careers in the big pro sports. To me, it seems ridiculous to try to squeeze another $5M or $10M out of the lifetime of your career and IGNORE the work atmosphere with your job. Sure, they’re professionals (so we assume they do as good as they can no matter who they work for), but we so often see rifts developing between players and management.

To me, long-term stability, happiness, and the ability to compete for a title every year are more important factors than those extraneous few millions of dollars. Money won’t make you happy, but a career spent with the right organization in the circumstances you want, where your family can be happy and all of your needs satisfied while also maintaining a personal life - these seem like goals with REAL value when considering your options as a free agent.

Maybe I’m wrong and all pro athletes are selfish, loner, money-driven sociopaths? I dunno, but it just seems so rare to hear of a pro taking a lower contract for the good of his team/franchise. The few cases where it does happen are refreshing stories, at least to me. I wish there were more of them.

3 things:
1) If the Cards win the WS or even get to the WS, then signing him is worth Wallace and Mortenson.
2) He is a really good hitter/ outfielder! But for $15-$20 million a year, you can sign about any ‘really good’ player or players.
3) If he wants crazy money, the put the money into pitching and let him walk.

How about signing Pinerio and Smoltz?

There is a lot of money coming OFF of the payroll at the end of this season. Glaus, Kennedy, Encarnacion, Ankiel, etc. The Cardinals can afford to make Holliday a good offer AND resign Pujols to whatever he wants AND keep the big 3 in the rotation for the next few years. The positions like second and short can be done the way the Cards have done it for years. Young and/or cheap guys to do the job. Schumaker and Ryan will still be cheap for a while. After that, they can be traded for pitching help, or whatever else is needed at the time.

Longhair, I understand your point. But you take Holiday….At his age, he may only have one ‘really big’ contract left. He’ll be thirty by next year.

I definitely see your point though.

Well said David, you beat me to the punch. I guess BNC4477 didn’t notice how the club soared into a first place standing all alone atop the NL Central with no one even appearing in the review at this point. This club has the talent, desire and coaching to get us number 11!! GO REDBIRDS!!!

We wouldn’t have traded wallace et al for “nothing” if we make the WS - that is clear. But not being able to sign him for next year and beyond would indeed make the trade much worse - that is also clear. If matt doesnt sign and wallace starts toward the HoF (not saying he will do that, just offering an extreme example) then the trade will be reviewed forever as a bad one. Only a WS can make it less than very bad.

I note that Wheeler (as usual) has insightful comments. He names 4 OFs getting 15-18 and I note that 3 of those are generally viewed as being wasteful, silly contracts and even the 4th (Lee) is viewed as overpaid. On that basis, Matt shouldn’t get more than he is already getting give or take a million or two. ($15M)

I echo longhair’s thoughts about how much money is enough but there is an answer to his question of why - agents. They offer things which make life easier for athletes and which (I think) precludes most athletes taking a deal where they like it rather than the best offer.

Agents take care of a lot of headaches and can also help with future money in the way of smart investing - all things an athlete would usually prefer not to have to deal with. So when they get a good one who is confident about what they can get and that they should expect to get, it becomes harder to stay where they like it for merely good money instead of ridiculous money. My $.02

I like longhair’s comments. How much more can an extra $10 million really do for you if you’re already a multimillionaire? That’s what drives me crazy about professional sports. I understand it’s a demanding job but if I can make $50 million for an organization that puts me in a good place for my career and my family, why would I need to make $60 million somewhere else that won’t do that? I already have $50 MILLION DOLLARS. Why do I need an extra $10M?

People wonder why pro athletes rarely pass up a chance to make a few million more per year?

Let me suggest that even when you’re looking at, say 15 million a year vs. 18 million a year, THAT IS STILL 3 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. $15 million on a five-year contract. $15 million more to help last the rest of your life after you are too old to play baseball.

But let’s pretend that we’re not talking about a whole, whole lot of money. How many of us would be indifferent to a 20% raise?

I live in DC and was watching the Cards Nats series last weekend out here. Old Pond Scum Ray Knight was doing the color for the Nats, and said Holliday had moved his family here and his kids started school in STL, which he said is EXTREMELY rare for a rental. Knight claims Holliday wants to stay here, evidenced by that.
On a side note, Bob Carpenter does play by play for the Nats, so it almost felt like I was watching the game in STL with Carpenter on the mic.
Lots of See-you-later! for the Cards last weekend.

I’m not worried.

We have $20 coming off the books from players not playing - Glaus, Khalil, Kennedy.

Wellemeyer and Ankiel both make, what, around $4-7 million? That money won’t be back.

We have to consider Joel and the pending Pujols contract, and really Wainwright in a few years. But beyond that we have things relatively locked down.

Holliday is young, a few weeks difference from Pujols listed age actually. This environment drives him. Give him a healthy offer in year, money, and no trade clauses and I bet he’ll take it. We’ll still have money to address Derosa and some other salary increases. Not to mention we started the season below the usual salary because of the economy. They went up because fans still came out. So theres still extra room in the budget when you take that into account too.

Plus we get a free bench guy next year in Lugo. That always helps.

I’m going to enjoy the Postseason run and let this slide off my back. I’m not concerned.

Oh and BNC4477 is a tool. He must have a rotten time watching the Cards win so much right now.

I think we all know the answer here. Enjoy him for the next two months cause he’ll be gone.

My thoughts go to Bernie’s article a few months back. Trading Wallace might be a waste, but not trying to win while Pujols is in this prime—that’s a waste too.

I think the Cards should sign DeRosa immediately- he obviously loves it here, he needs surgery in the off-season and so he might be willing to re-sign right away. That is another checkmark to see how much you have after the season to work with. Then, they need to go after Holliday and hope he likes it here enough to stay for a little less than Albert makes. We can keep our fingers crossed….

Why all the negative responses? When have the Cardinals failed to sign a player that was on the roster and became a free agent that they wanted? I honestly can’t remeber that happening in a long time. The Yankees have already said that they plan on keeping Damon in left for next year and the Red Sox know that Jason Bay is a pretty good player, so why take a huge financial risk on Holliday? Most AL teams won’t want to risk the money on someone that seems to be a better NL player. As for NL teams, does any NL team have a better opportunity to win this year and next year like the Cardinals? And do they have the money the Cardinals will next year? I would think that if Holliday cares about winning (which I think his enthusiasm shows he does) then why take some more money and go to another rebuilding project?

I also think that with all the dead cash being available next year that is why they went after Holliday. Last years non-roster moves now look like they make sense. If this move was made last year, we would not have had the option to sign him and it would have been a very costly rental.

I think we need to give the front office much more credit. Can we all agree after this years great moves maybe they are smarter then we thought?

With all due respect, I think he will want more than a 5 year contract…and I believe he will get more than a 5 year deal in the open market. He’s 29 and this is his one and only shot at the contract of a lifetime. He didn’t hire Boras to leave money on the table, either. I think $20 million a year isn’t out of the question for him…much like Albert Belle in the early 90’s, it only takes one franchise to break that glass ceiling. I would expect at least a 7-year $120 offer, but wouldn’t be shocked in the least if there’s a $140 million dollar deal out there for him.

Anything more than $16MM per year means (1) restructuring Albert’s contract and (2) overpaying him to the point that you’re sacrificing other players that can fill important roles. I think he’s worth about $13MM a year because of his eye-popping Corrs Field splits, but that won’t get it done. If he gets away, go after J.Bay.

Matt, We want you to stay.

You are the kind of player that wears the “Birds-on-the-Bat” well.

We will be insanely loyal if you stay, and still cheer for you if you don’t (unless you sign with the Brewers!). If you go, you will miss us.

No other NL team has as many NL Championships and World Series wins.
St. Louis has a winning tradition which is real and I know you already feel it whenever you step into the locker room. We can and will continue to win. It’d be even more fun with you.

I think Kevin Wheeler’s 5 year, $85 million number is fair. I think J.D. Drew’s contract with Boston (5 years, $70 million) is a decent comparable, as J.D. was roughly the same age and had similar numbers from age 24-29 as Holliday’s. The big difference is Holliday’s durability, which is certainly worth another $2-3 million annually.

The five year time frame is really key for the Cardinals. 32-33 is the age most power hitters’ stats start to noticably decline. Holliday is a good contact hitter with good mechanics, so I’m betting he stays productive into at least the last year of a 5 year deal.

Unfortunately I see Boras pushing for at least 6 years and nine figures. You can bet on him reminding everyone of Alfonso Soriano’s contract and that Holliday’s career numbers are better than Soriano’s BEST SEASON.

But, as several of the panelists noted, real key here is the Cardinals’ plans to retain Albert Pujols. Every move the Cardinals make between now and the end of 2011 needs to be made with keeping AP in mind. Bottom line, if Holliday leaves a lot of fans will be unhappy. If Albert Pujols leaves St. Louis, fans are going to storm Dewitt’s office with pitchforks and torches.

Speaking of raising the bar, has anyone noticed that Troy Glaus is about 75 pounds heavier than when he last played for the Redbirds. If he hit one out of the park, could he make it to home plate? Apparently a bad shoulder rules out jogging…

Really…whats the difference if you sign for 80 million, 90 million, 100 million, at that point isn’t it all like monopoly money anyway. I want to be happy and whether I have 90 or 100 million, it doesn’t matter. Its all more than I could ever spend and more than enough for his family. Find a place to be happy and enjoy. With the money we are talking about whats an extra 10-15 million ( can you believe I just said that).

I sure hope he proves me wrong, but Holliday will be gone next year. Unfortunatly players almost always go where the money is. And just when you think they’ll be different, they’ll break your heart.

I watched that up here in Brewer country with C.C. Sabathia… who said he wouldn’t go to the highest bidder, who said location was important, only to sign with *drumroll please* … the YANKEES! Broke a lot of people’s hearts up here leading them on like that. I’m not going to let that happen to me hoping Matt stays. Baseball is a business, and sadly nobody’s going to turn down a 15-25% pay increase just to play in St. Louis… INCLUDING Albert Pujols… no matter what kind of clubhouse we have.

Really, not one person says that the last few months could be a fluke and that Holliday’s Colorado numbers could be inflated. His numbers outside of Colorado, regardless of what he does for part of ONE season here does not justify the $18m Boras will ask for. Why do we want to start to have the Cubs payroll with a Soriano type contract that we can’t get away from. We were not built on this type of player. It is a great rental and great trade as we needed it and he is playing great, but a long term deal with a no trade clause really puts us on the hook based on a few months of performance that is well above his career average outside of games played in Colorado. We need to get another bat for next year, but $18m is close to top dollar and not sure there is the justification in his stats. He will get that money from someone, just not sure we shouldn’t be smarter than to overpay based on the second half of 2009 especially when I look back to the first half of 09.
I love the Cards, that is why I write. If we mess this up and can’t contend with Holliday, a deal like this could cause us to lose Pujols down the line as if we did this, we will have used our only shot at buying a bat. All those guys saying we have dead money coming off the payroll. How do you think we got those contracts in the first place or Lohse’s contract for that matter?

Compare Holliday to Pojols. He’s not as good as Albert. Hasn’t hit as many hommers as Albert. Doesn’t deserve Albert money. He’s about in the same money boat as Glaus is. The five year $80 Million deal seams more than fair for Holliday and he’s better off playing in the NL where he hits better.

The cardinals should not do more than a 2 yr deal. I have a gut feeling Holiday might turn out to be a Jim Edmonds type of player for the Cardinals. With that said 20 million for a 2 yr deal is plenty. Take or leave it…

What an assinine post, Herb. 2 years @ $20 million. Take it or leave it? GET REAL. I’m sure he would be leaving it.

80 mill in STL IS like 100 mill in Boston or NY…I wonder if these guys ever take that into consideration. Look at the house 1 mill buys in STL compared to the east coast

Dear Matt, Please take a moment and read Longhair’s comments. It’s the tenth entry. He is so right. No matter with whom you sign this winter, you will never have to worry about money, your kids will never have to worry, your grandkids will never have to worry. The Cards will offer a fine deal. It won’t be the highest, but you will be able to be on a contending team every year, in a line up full of very good players, playing in front of 40,000 cheering, devoted fans every single home game for the rest of your career. We need you in the line-up and you will never regret staying here. We also need you to help secure Albert for the rest of his career, too.

By the way, I love your aggressiveness. The way you hit the first pitch so often. It’s often the best pitch to hit.

What you have experienced here the short time you have been here is the norm for St. Louis, not an aberration. It’s fun here. Please stay and enjoy yourself. 90M, 100M, 110, doesn’t really matter, does it? You won’t have to balance your checkbook, ever. Thanks for you consideration.

6 yr 105m that might get it done…if he does to market 8 year 145

Whatever happens with Holliday, this was not a waste. I will forever be impressed with teams that do all that they can to win NOW! We have NO IDEA what kind of MLB player Wallace will be. We knew and know about Holliday. We made some big changes this year and are winning NOW! Way to go Cardinals!

Carlos Beltran,…. thats all the FO needs to remember when signing Holliday.

How many millions can ballplayers possibly spend throughout their lives even if they try very hard?

Why would any professional athlete leave $ on the table? To be kind to the owners? They want their fair pay and they deserve what the market will bear, that’s why they almost always go to the highest bid. Like other comments, how many people would freeze their pay for 5 years with a 20% pay cut? Or sell your house for 20% less because the people that wanted to buy it seem “nice”?

Why would they leave money on the table? Easy. Happiness.

$85 million and happy or $100 million and miserable? Easy choice.

It’s funny how people always try to compare athlete salaries to those of the average person. Apples and oranges. It means something to a person’s quality of life if they earn $50,000/year instead of $40,000/year. It doesn’t mean much at all to earn $20m/year over $17m/year. What would he not be able to buy because of that $3m? A minor league team?

It’s also ridiculous to assume that every professional athlete only cares about making as much money as possible. I’d say that what they care about is making the most money they can while being happy. Not everyone, and not even the majority, of people are greedy bastards.

It will be interesting to see what kind of guy Holliday is. Is he going to make the big money grab and play on east coast? Or will be be reasonable and settle for a lot of money and play in an environment that is far more easy going and forgiving during slumps and off years. If he goes to the east coast and puts up Oakland type numbers, he will crucified by the media and fans. Does he really have the stomach for that? Seems to me, if you have the chance to play next to the greatest player of your time, you take it, even if you make a little less money. After all, what does 100 million buy you that 85 million doesn’t?

“So it looks like we gave away Wallace and Mortensen for nothing. Maybe we can get Chris Duncan back next year.”

Yes nothing equals 2 draft picks if we lose him as an type A free agent. So we gave a 3B prospect that couldnt field and a pitcher who wont be D Haren.

Logic dictates that Matt should stay out of the American League. His time there didn’t prove productive. One the Boston and New York money isn’t acceptable, then we look at NL teams. Dodgers. Nope, got Manny? Mets, maybe but the team isn’t good enough. Phillies, interesting. But all things considered it looks like the Cardinals have the most to offer. I think the real decision he faces is does Matt want the financial rewards or the place in history he could earn in St. Louis. McGwire took fewer dollars to help make the Cardinals a good team. Matt may take fewer Redbird bucks to make the Cardinals a great time for many years. He’s young and could favor the wealth, but becoming a great ballplayer will pay dividends long after contracts end. Just a thought.

The Cards need to offer 5yrs/85 million dollars to Holliday the first day right after the World Series. If the Cards wait to long and allow other teams to contact Boras/Holliday is will be over for Stl. The Cards cannot get into a bidding war with the likes of the higher market clubs ie Red Sox and Yankees. He is well worth the 85 million, but baseball is like everything else in the world is obeys the laws of economics. It all falls on supply and demand. Coming into this offseason how many outfeilders have the ability that a Matt Holliday has, and how many teams could use a guy like a Matt Holliday will be on gm’s mind throughout the majors. Take for example Jason Marquis, he was 14-16 6.02 era, because of a lack of big league pitching that offseason the Cubs signed him to a big contract.

Its not about greed. You are making the illogical assumption that playing for $100 million for some other team will make them UN-happy. Umm maybe $100 million for the Nationals, sure, but we are talking about premier teams, i.e., the Red Sox and Yankees. And all this regarding a player that previously CHOSE to go to Oakland for tons of money.

Its also extremely illogical to assume that wanting more money is always about sheer greed. Maybe they feel that $20 million dollars (PLUS INTEREST) would go a long way in helping their pet charities or personal foundations.

He’s going to the Giants - mark my words.

And the thing that some of you guys are forgetting…yes, this may be Holliday’s “last” contract, but he has made many millions of dollars ALREADY.

So, you’re not really comparing 100 to 80 million…but perhaps 170M (lifetime earnings) to 150! When you look at it that way, and also take into account the vast difference in Cost of Living that some posters have mentioned, it’s a no-brainer IF he enjoys playing here.

All that said, I’m not entirely sold on him. If he does decide to hold out for “huge” dollars, IMO I say our money is better spent elsewhere….

I also think that with the salaries coming off the payroll in the next year .. that it would be near a push to resign both Pujols & Holliday. Lugo is cheap next year, as well as B. Ryan and Rasmus. DeRosa can also be had in the salary range and still be under the cap after the salaries leave. So that completes the infield and 2/3 of the outfield. Maybe we should look at what is in farm system for outfielders and maybe think about that ! We already have Carp & Wainright for next year and maybe Pinero will stay for a small bump. Then I think we have much the same team as right now without the big salary additions.

Cost of living? Not a factor for some guy getting 80-100 MILLION. Also, that assumes his PRIMARY residence will be wherever he plays ball, which is generally not always the case, especially the more said player is paid.

I would be surprised if the FO overpays for him. There are other guys out there and we have some great prospects coming up. I think we still have the edge though because although the Red Sox and Yankees could easily outbid us, I think Matt has figured out his comfort factor is the NL and that leaves the Mets and us. Everyone else that can afford him (cubs,dodgers) have a pretty high payroll and little room in the outfield to put him. I think our chances are maybe 60/40. I do think he is making the call and Boras is not completely stupid he’s going to rate the Cards very high as a good match for Matt.

Hey Mr. Holliday.

I’m a Cards fan transplanted in Austin, TX. Come on down for a visit, I’ll order up some Lone Star’s, some BBQ, and we’ll find ya a nice place to live. Plus, Ludwick is up the road, you’ll have friends here already. And, I’ll thrown in free weekly lawn care if you sign with the Cardinals. If that ain’t a signing bonus, I don’t know what it. I’ll also offer my unique advice and ‘coaching skills’. “Hey Matt, let’s talk about that 4/5, 2 HR, 5 RBI game you had last night…I really felt you could have worked the count better on that AB you didn’t get a hit on. Let’s try an opposite field approach next time, look for the outside slider.”

On a more serious note, Boras in an a-hole and probably only cares about his commission. So, screw all those AL East teams and stay in STL.

I firmly believe that not everyone wants to play in Boston and NY, no matter how much moncy they throw at you. The media circus there puts you on display everyday and can cause a lot of good players to play below expectations. I hope Holliday can see that and understands that in St Louis, you always have a chance to win. $80-million or $110 million, how may more yachts can you buy?

Well, the experts at the watercooler seem to be in agreement on the Holliday question. Who am I to question them? That sample could very well be the measuring stick. I would like to see the Cards put a nice offer on the table before other teams use their money, team success and personal charm in wooing Holliday away from the Cards. So long as the offer is respectable, Holliday would have to consider that along with the amiable clubhouse and talent that he apparently is currently very happy with.

Holliday won’t stay. You can tell he’s using this as an audition for unGodly amounts of money. You can just tell. Mo should offer him free lifetime Lion’s Choice Roast Beef, that’s the best thing about St. Louis besides the Arch.

The amount of money is a measure of “respect” and a barameter for how much a team wants a player. When one team offers $10M more over 5 years, it speaks to the player (and especially the agent! So, the Cards are going to need to be near the market to keep Holliday. BUT, I think a lot of his success right now is simply that he’s behind Pujols in the lineup (duh). But, when a healthy Ludwig has been in that spot the past 2 years, he has been really good, as well. I think that there is a natural “let-up” when a pitcher gets through Pujols (with success or not); that benefits the guy right behind him. Despite how good Holliday has been, I hope the Cards don’t mess up the payroll by signing him to something that doesn’t make sense (see Texas Rangers and A-Rod)!

I’ll say it again. I envision a post-season phone call. Albert Pujols calling Matt Holliday, saying, “We could do this for a lot of years. We have plenty of money. Let’s play ball.”

Matt,I make $25 million per year and I have NO rings to show for my signing with the Yankees. You got it made in St Louis. You are playing with the best player in the game,a very good lineup and have pitching to win a lot of games. You are WANTED by the team and fans. How nice it would be to be cheered by the crowd! I would have given away a few million to have rings and be a crowd favorite. Do not be like me or Manny and chase the money. WS RINGS are the prize! Make sure Boras works for you and does what YOU want. Do NOT trust him.

If we let Holliday walk, we will take a step backwards in the NL Central. If he stays we will be the favorites for years to come. Simple as that, get it done!

Or will be be reasonable and settle for a lot of money and play in an environment that is far more easy going and forgiving during slumps and off years. — John/St.peters

Matt needs to talk to Chris Duncan, Scott Rolen, Jason Isringhausen and Marc Bulger before he makes a career decision based on how great the fans in STL are.

Go Card’s !I think bringing matt holliday to st louis was the biggest move they have done in awhile and GREATEST MOVE ! I hope they keep him around !

Just look at that list of outfielders making $15-18 million a year. How many of those would you say are good contracts? Zero. I say $15 million/yr is the highest you can go and still build a reasonable club around him.

who needs derosa. resign glaus for a lot less money and use the would-be derosa money on holliday

Lots of good commentary to an equally strong article.

You can boil it all down, using the Mark Texiera/Manny Ramirez
examples of last year, of whether we can sign him to an extension:

1) How he performs in the post season?

2) Who’s calling the shots: Boras or Holliday’s wife?

3) His team mates can convince him he’d be much happier in STL than
in NY or BOS?

“I firmly believe that not everyone wants to play in Boston and NY, no matter how much moncy they throw at you.”

You are correct… 100% right.

Signed

Greg Maddox former Borus client who signed with Atlanta over the NYY offer.