If Charlie Manuel was the Manager for the Cardinals would he have devided time between Ludwick, Ankiel, and Duncan when he was here?

You mean to tell me that because they’ve got solid pitching and no holes in their lineup the Phillies may repeat?

EUREKA!!!

Too bad none of those pretty stats will mean jack when the Yankees have their way with them.

The Phillies have terrific depth and I agree with Kevin’s remarks … it’s their speed and balance that sets them apart. This lefty-righty mix in their lineup makes the Phillies a tough matchup for opposing teams who turn to their bullpens in the late innings. And their team speed poses problems. This represents their edge over the Cardinals and most other teams!

The Phillies’ lineup has a good blend of power & speed, so they can translate their on-base percentage into extra-base hits or can steal a base when necessary. In contrast, the Cardinals’ lineup was producing fewer extra-base hits, drawing fewer walks outside of Pujols, and stealing fewer bases.

The Phillies’ rotation after Hamels & before the Lee trade knew that it simply had to bear down and pitch well enough to keep the team in games and turn it over to a strong bullpen. If they did so, the offense had a good chance of scoring the runs the team needed to be ahead for the bullpen to close the game out. In contrast, the Cardinals’ rotation survived on Wainwright & Carpenter’s ability to pitch deep into games and produce enough strikeouts or groundballs since the offense was not guaranteed to score the runs the team needed to be ahead.

The difference was flling the lineup with good hitting plus speed instead of only one of those elements. There were times when Pineiro and the back end of the rotation could get deep enough into games but because of the lack of balanced offensive support couldn’t earn a victory. The confidence that, if you pitch a good enough game that you should be able to turn a game over to your bullpen with a lead, wasn’t there when it needed to be.

The Cards need a replacement at either SS, 2B or C that can hit with power while sporting a decent average. You can’t keep trotting out Molina, Skip and Brandon who together would create an over and under for 15 HR’s.

I like all three but at least one of thRee positions must have a guy that can at least hit 20 dingers, otherwise you have no one with pop hitting 7th or 2nd. Basically, with these three guys, you have either Skip or Ryan as a decent lead off, Ryan is better as he is more of a threat to steal and then you end up with two number eight hitters batting 7th and 8th Molina and Ryan/Skip). The Cards need more pop and don’t even think about bringing Ankiel back. If they don’t sign Holiday then they will need Derosa or someone else that can hit 20-30 HR’s in LF. Ludwick if not traded needs to play 150 games.

Molina is too valuable to move from the catcher spot, but could improve a middle infield spot and have Ryan’s defense at the other spot.

At 2nd: Orlando Hudson & Ron Belliard might be free agents from the Dodgers, wouldn’t think they would keep both. DeRosa at 2nd instead of utility could be an option.

At Short: Could take a chance on an aging Miguel Tejada. Heck, maybe he would agree to play 3rd base in STL?

the Cardinals for some reason just don’t hit in the clutch and for seasons have made bad to average pitchers look like Cy Young candidates. They don’t adjust well at the plate, hardly ever work the count, and for some reason just refuse to take walks (swinging a 3-0 pitches and poping up comes to mind) You don’t have to have a buch of power hitters to win ballgames, but you do have to have some smart hitters that know HOW to hit other than ones name Pujols.

JEFF GORDON
Run production! That lineup wears out pitchers. There is danger everywhere. How many at bats would Chris Duncan, Rick Ankiel, Joe Thurston, Khalil Greene, Troy Glaus, et al, have earned in that group?

With Tony running the team they’d have there fair share. If Duc was still with the team Tony would be splitting time between him and Holiday.

Aren’t there any Trung Canidate types available?

Seriously though - I think the Rams need a stud, game-breaking WR first. I would love for them to be able to pick up a decent QB in the 2nd round - not sure if Locker would be there or not. A great run-stopper like Suh would be awesome too, but I’m leary of Nebraska guys…

The thing that’s concerning is that we’re spending a TON of money because we keep having the top first or two picks every year… who demand a lot of money before taking even one snap. This trend has to stop…

ooops - sorry! accidentally posted ram comment on this thread…

It’s not hard to beat the Cardinals in stolen bases. What were they, last in the league in SB’s? Don’t know the answer to that for sure, but have to believe that they were near or at the bottom in that particular stat, as well. No offense to Albert Pujols, but it doesn’t say much for your running game when Pujols leads the team in SB’s. Tony had some speed on this team, why doesn’t he use it? Why don’t they work with these young guys like Rasmus and teach them how to steal bases? Why make a big deal about drafting a five-tool player and then not use one of his tools? What a waste. This team often does not do the things that you need to do to get runners into scoring position and manufacture runs. Tony’s protestations to the contrary notwithstanding, it seems like this team is always waiting for The Big Hit when they have runners in scoring position. Unfortunately, The Big Hit didn’t appear most of the time with RISP (lack of clutch hitting being another problem in and of itself).

The Phillies are the team to beat in the NL. They are primed to mow the NL down again next season. They seem to have the Cards number. They play the Cards tough at Busch. There are no soft spots in there lineup and it can dish out the punnishment at any time. They have the talent and the grit to take the battle to their opponents and BEAT them up. The Cards have the resolve to keep pushing, keep punching away, but they appear worn out in September. They just don’t appear to have the fight left in them to carry and take the battle to there opponents. The Cards are tough for about 12 rounds of fight. Unfortunately September and the playoffs equate to 3 more rounds of fight. The Phillies are heavy weight champions playing in a middle weight league. There ain’t much you can do but show up and maybe you might get a lucky (but not likely) knock out punch.

Tejada at SS than Ryan? No thanks. Sure Tejada can hit but think of the range you’ll be giving up by having him in there over Ryan. Ryan has done nothing but get better ever since he started playing more…why not continue to give him the oppertunity? Tell him to get in the weight room this off season and he’ll work himself into a more powerful hitter. Mark my words…Ryan will be an important spark plug for this team as long as he’s here. On to Yadi…I love the guy…i have his jersey…but he needs to drop some weight and work on his running. not his base running but his speed. Get in the weightroom…do some squats…do some long distance running…run the hills and work on your sprints. Not only will this help his speed but it’ll help his bat speed by being quicker with his hips. If his speed was something that is a huge issue with him…why not address it in the off season? Onto 2nd. I wouldn’t mind picking up Hudson if he were available and move Schu back to backing up CF/LF…though Schu did prove to be a decent 2nd and was hitting .300 all season…how can you argue with that? To conclude, once the Cards weed out the Duncs, Anks, Greenes and Glaus’ of the team…they can start building on their depth. I would rather have a team loaded with pure hitters than have a team with 2 or 3 power threats and a bunch of noodle bats.

ummm…Everything

This difference is $113M vs $77.6M (according to the USA Today salary database). If the Cards were willing to spend an additional $35.4M they would have the lineup depth with both speed and power and not have so many hitters hovering around .230.

The Manager. The Phillies Charlie Manuel is very good at allowing good players play. 7 starting players quailified for the batting title and none of them were a catcher. 6 of them players over 150 games. All 7 had over 500 AB. 4 pitchers with over 30 starts and none over 200 innings. Manuel used what he had very efficiently. He has aged like a fine wine. The Phillies are like the power house teams of the 60’s and 70’s, you know what their lineup is day in and day out and dare you to beat them. The Big Red Machine, the Orioles, the Athletics, and the Yankee’s, back then is what the Phillies resemble now, strong, hungry, and in their prime and very tough to beat. And to top it off they added Cliff Lee. Win or lose the in the World Series, they are very very good.

Agree with all the above, but would like to see a further analysis: Why do the Astros seem to beat the Phillies, almost at will? Whatever it is that works for the Stros might work for us, too.

New York Yankees $ 201,449,189
New York Mets $ 149,373,987
Chicago Cubs $ 134,809,000
Boston Red Sox $ 121,745,999
Detroit Tigers $ 115,085,145
Los Angeles Angels $ 113,709,000
Philadelphia Phillies $ 113,004,046
Houston Astros $ 102,996,414
Los Angeles Dodgers $ 100,414,592
Seattle Mariners $ 98,904,166
Atlanta Braves $ 96,726,166
Chicago White Sox $ 96,068,500
San Francisco Giants $ 82,616,450
Cleveland Indians $ 81,579,166
Toronto Blue Jays $ 80,538,300
Milwaukee Brewers $ 80,182,502
St. Louis Cardinals
Sorry for the ragged looking post. Cards dropped 22 million dollars in payroll compared to 2008

“This difference is $113M vs $77.6M (according to the USA Today salary database). If the Cards were willing to spend an additional $35.4M they would have the lineup depth with both speed and power and not have so many hitters hovering around .230.”

I couldn’t agree more. To get and keep the kind of players needed to contend with the likes of Philly we’re going to have to spend more dollars. Re-signing Holliday would be a start and with 3.3M fans in the seats, why can’t we?

The Phillies have a good relaxed approach at the plate vs the Cardinals over aggressive mantra TLR preaches.

The Phillies have drafted very well and spent their free agent $$ wisely.
The Cardinals have drafted very marginally and spent their free agent $$ poorly for the most part.

The Phillies have an easygoing players manager. The Cardinals have a micro managing, uptight control freak.

There is a disconnect between the MLB level and the minors. The pitching flareup is just one example. Until Mr. DeWitt cleans out the 14 years of doing it one way; absolutely nothing will change. That rests solely with Mr. DeWitt and Mr. Yes (Mozeliak). The Phillies resemble the Indians for which Manuel was the batting coach. Solid attack of power hitters, and speedy baserunners like Lofton. Each was a clutch hitter that worked the count, and absolutely tore up McRae’s Royals. The Cardinals are like those old codgers that don’t like new things like computers to renew their business. Stubborn. John Hart, Whitey Herzog, now Tony Riggins have a pretty decent philosophy of who to draft, what free agents to sign, and what players to trade for. Cardinals went from hitters with speed and gap power to batters plodding to first base. Heck, sometimes they even catch the ball now days.

It’s no accident that the Phillies are in the World Series for the second year in a row after reading all these dominating statistics, especially on the offensive side. I’m curious as to how they acquired all these power packed offensive players. Are they mostly farm products, free agents, were they acquired through trades? It would be interesting to know how they got to this level. Much was written about the strength of the Cardinal offense after the July trades, but it’s quite obvious that the Cardinals have a long way to go to match or even come close to what the Phillies can put on the field offensively.

Forgot to add Pat Gillick as the architech of the Phillies current minor and MLB rosters.

And while LaRussa contemplates; the Cardinals await Mesiah’s decision; as willing hostages.

Those of you that think Manuel is a laid back manager, haven’t been following baseball this year. He benched Rollins for lack of intensity (Hustle/bad at bats). He does run a tight ship.

If the Cardinals played in the East with the Phillies,Mets, Braves, etc., we would have to play for the wild card spot. Winning the Central doesn’t get you much these days.

The Phillies are good because they drafted well (Victorino, Rollins, Howard, Utley, Hamels, Happ) and have the flexibility to acquire guys like Lee and Ibanez. Jayson Werth kinda came out of nowhere because he was never this much of a slugger through the minors and until the Phillies got him.

If it makes anyone feel better, they’re due for some regression next season. Not a lot, but Carlos Ruiz is nowhere near as good as he was in ‘09. And Ibanez will go from about a 130 OPS+ to around 120 IMO.

The difference is in the “MANAGER!” They have one and the Cardinals do not!

Here are top teams in NL: Phillies, Cubs, Mets, Cardinals, Brewers, Rockies, and Dodgers. Don’t look for the Cubs and Mets to have back-to-back bad seasons. Again the Cardinals cannot stand pat for the 2010 season.

People,people I agree with your comments but your forget the one thing that separate’s the Phillies from every team in the NL and most of the teams in the AL.There gamers they work harder and there a team to the core.If there talent doesn’t kill you there work ethic will!!

Yes, the Cards did make the playoffs and did win the NL Central, but when you ask yourself how good they really were you continue to come up with questions marks at certain postions. For example…who is our 3rd baseman; who is our leftfielder; who is our pinchhitting threat; will Molina ever be an rbi threat; will Ludwick be our regular rightfielder or need more rest…and so on. As was mentioned, until ownership decides to spend the millions that the powerhouse teams spend, and have a manager that ALWAYS plays the odds, we will be barely good enough to win the NL Central…period.

The Cardinals have a good nucleus to be a very team next year and several years to follow. Strength and conditioning would help several players to improve their play on the field. One the best strength and conditioning guru is located 12 miles from Busch Stadium the “Rock” at Rams park. He could help the several players improve their overall foot speed with a solid conditioning program. These players don’t have to become body builders but develope better body strength, pitchers included. When they have better body strength the ball would explode off their bats when centered. When running to first base it is best explode out of the batters box running throught first base, leaving your feet to slide in head first is a out 9 out of 10 times. Once you leave your feet you have no control of your body. A strong offseason conditioning program overseen and monitored by a real condition coach now would be perfect. It would help ward off the fatigue problems that arises during a 162 game season. The Cardinals could have had (3) 20 game winning starting pitchers with 40% more run production from the hitters. With more upper and lower body strength our hitters beat out a few more ground outs, sure gap doubles become triples place more runners on base and in scoring position. We’re not always waiting for the big homerun. Pitchers it’s plus to have a strong arm but having solid strong leg strength helps you push off the pitching rubber with explosion to home plate reducing the need to rely solely on your arm strength prime examples- CC Sabathia, Tim Lincecum, Chris Carpenter,Roy Oswalt and the healthiest of them all Treavor Hoffman a fitness nut in believing in strength and conditioning of his whole body. Most of these pitchers have super lower body strength. Albert Pujols sits on your bench everyday, look at what he has accomplished with a super strength and conditioning program with a bum elbow for the past 7years. Overall body strength helped him overcome that injury. One more thing, Vince Coleman was a guest in the booth on a recent telecast(during the Bob Gibson’s celebration) explaining the art of running and stealing bases wanting and willing to teach our younger players how to do it. Mr. DeWitt,Mo,Tony are you listening he said I’ll be glad to be a coach. There no better time than now the golf tournaments are few and in between. Get my drift! Don’t wait to spring training do it now make it mandatory, the players , management and most of all the fans would be very appreciative of the results.

just think of how many times the Cards had a runner on third with less than 2 outs and they stayed there, or a runner on 2nd with no outs and the farthest he got was third. And the first pitch swinging and 3-0 swinging used to drive me nuts. Sure there were some hits swinging on those pitches but the odds were that they were either swinging strikes or outs. Cards didn’t make a lot of pitchers work in some games. You take the Cards pitching staff and a Phillie offense and we’re still playing right now. Carp didn’t pitch a great game in game 1, but with a Phillie offense they win both games one and 2. Holliday was hitting a ton when he came here and then fell into the same bad habits the others did. This has to be the worse hitting Cards team I’ve seen in years despite winning 90plus games.

How about Philly has a Manager who isn’t afraid of hitting lefties against lefties, and wouldn’t think of sitting his starting 2nd basemen? Especially after he just was on base 4 times the night before!

James K you said it all! Agree 100%.

Think of all the players on the Cards that could not crack the Phillies Lineup. Werth over Ludwick, Victorino over Rasmus (this could change as Rasmus continues to develop), Rollins over Ryan, Utley over Schumaker, Ibanez over Derosa (assumes Holliday is gone and Derosa is starting in left). Molina and Pujols obviously measure up well but Howard is top notch. It’s a struggle to find a Cardinal that you would put in the lineup everyday over the counterpart on the Phillies. Cards are still searching to find that 2nd or 3rd strong player to support Pujols. Since the prime years of Rolen and Edmonds that have had squat. Cards SPs stack up quite well but Mo’s inability to address the bullpen in the last offseason (a stated priority) makes the Phillies a clear winner in 2 of 3 areas.

I will say the Phillies were better than the Cards this year cause they flat out showed up to play. The Cards thought the Dodgers were just going to roll over. With how the Dodgers just got killed in this last series, for them to beat Carp and Waino back to back speaks volumes as to how the Cards did not play a hard 9. The lineup and the bullpen(Miller excluded) were terrible.

The biggest difference is the middle infield.They bat at the top of the lineup and get on base and steal bases in front of their power hitter.The cards players bat first or ninth,first or eight,or first and on the bench.A closer look would see a confidence in their players as compared to a show me. or you can’t do certain things by Cards mgr.TLR .The Card offense NEVER steals or tries to steal second in front of #5.

The payroll observations are key. With constant sellouts our ownership is content to keep payroll where it is, versus the payroll of the teams that are more dominant. Not a criticism but a fact. It is a business and profit remains the key motivator.

One position says it, all second base. One is a true professional, the other worries with his batting gloves and warm up swing.

The Dodgers did not bet Carp and Waino back to back. They beat Carp and Franklin back to back. Waino won his game. He did not pitch the ninth inning.

Decent Starting Left Handed Pitching

Even with the addition of Holliday there are holes to fill. Frankly the Phillies are the only NL team who is capable of giving the Yankees a hard time. PERIOD.

Four things: 1) Patience at the plate and make the pitcher work. There are 5,000 stats but nobody can seem to hone in on the most important one: Batting average of team when swinging at the first pitch and putting it in play—and then extrapolate–average on same when team is losing. (I hear Jack Buck as I think this.) 2) Phillies are in a much harder division and Cards are MAYBE third if their in that one. How many WS have Central teams won in say last 30 years? Astro’s-never/Brewers-never/Cubs-c’mon/Pirates ‘79/Red’s 93. 3) Players change-fundamentals don’t. Defense–hitting the right cut off man (Ask Rasmus) Advance the runner–if you can’t hit a ground ball to the right side of the infield to score the runner from third, then find another line of work. 4) Bullpen–the more people you rely on to accomplish something the higher the probability for failure. If LaRussa had come to the mound to take Gibson out he’d have left on a stretcher. Take note Carpenter and Wainright.

What is the Phillies payroll? At the beginning of the season it was $119 million as opposed to the Cards $77 at the beginning.

I just want to know when they Phillies are going to have to Pay Up to all of those hitters and pitchers on their team. They have a lot of players in that line up who could demand some serious money from other teams, yet the Phillies have not really had to pay them anything this far. When are these players due for a Pay raise?

Phils do not have tlr.

For all you salary guys, it is stupid to pay 77 mil. We need to get it down to about 30 mil. and get some good hustle players in here. It is
stupid to pay even that for a baseball club. The Pirates have it right.
They do not loose money, and it is easy to get a good seat, and you still
see all the other teams up close. Pay those salaries SUCKERS.

If the Cardinals had Whitey Herzog as the general manager and manager the makeup of the team would be so much differnt and we WOULD compete with anyone. TLR split time with Ankiel, Duncan, and Ludwick. On a Herzog squad they wouldn’t even make the team. Whitey would hit and run and manufacture runs.(Squeeze Plays). Hence while TLR philosophies are much different; that is why we are last in runs scored. Whitey wouldn’t allow hitters to swing on 3-0 counts and he would advise the hitting coach to address these issues, or he’d be gone! Work the count and work the pitcher. The Manager is ultimately responsible for his team and this includes his coaching staff. Finally; the bullpen issues are glaring. Franklin was effective before the allstar break and ineffective after. We need a TRUE bullpen by committee without roles of pitchers that can flat out JUST GET OUTS.