I’m torn. Part of me thinks Holliday owes us for his crappy playoff performance (baseball in the groin plus not swinging with the bases loaded in Game 1). The other part of me says good riddance. Go with the highest bidder. If you need the extra two or three million per year on top of the eight figure salary you will get no matter what, then buh bye.

It’s great a city like St. Louis has a tradition-rich baseball team that has the resources to field teams that can consistantly compete for championships. Chicago has become more of a high dollar player and seems to now have competent ownership, which will challenge the Cards dominance of the Central Division. Nonetheless, investing over $100m in just 7 players like the Cubs have done is bad for baseball economics in as a whole. As much as the Cardinals can use Holliday and as good a fit as he seems to be hitting between Pujols and Ludwick, for St. Louis to give Holliday a 7 or 8 year contract–no trade, no less–for $120m or more, is flat out asinine. That’s just way too many years and way too much money. There are better ways to spend that kind of money. Namely on Pujols and pitchers, pitchers and more good pitchers.

Matt Holliday cares only about the money and will not sign here. Anyone who employs the lecherous scumbag Scott Bor-ASS openly makes that declaration.

I think the man has ruined baseball. I realize he is not the only agent in baseball, but consistently puts himself out there in front of his client. He has an ego bigger than the arch. I don’t dislike the clients. They have a right to make as much money as the market will allow. I have a problem with the person they decided to represent him. I bet Scott Boras’ head is more than eight pounds.

jax- amen to that!!!

Come on, Mr. Goold. “It’s media size.” “It’s population.” It’s extremely bad punctuation/grammar for a high school student, let alone a professional journalist.

Revenue totals near the bottom of the upper third most definitely put us in the “mid-market” range. The “elite” earners and spenders - NY, Boston, Cubs, and the like - are in a tier by themselves. While the Cards are not on par with the Oaklands of the world, we are certainly not in the position to be giving Teixeira-type contracts to anyone not named Albert Pujols. If Boras demands 8/180, or even 8/136 (or whatever it was Soriano got), RUN!

I don’t care about “mid-market” and the stats that define it. The stats I’m interested in are batting average, fielding percentage, era and wins vs. losses. Anything else is just off-season jibberish.

I agree somewhat with Boras. I live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and just about everybody here is a Cardinal fan. Almost all 162 games are televised locally. The same goes for Oklahoma City, Little Rock, Memphis, and other parts of Cardinal Nation. The Cardinals dominate the baseball fanbase in the Lower Midwest and the Mid-South. The Cards are a regional franchise, not a mid-market team. By contrast, the Rams and Blues are mid-market teams, each with a fan base that is primarily confined to the St. Louis metro area. I am one of the few people down here that follows the Rams and the Blues, and I am forced to watch the Dallas Cowboys and Dallas Stars and the Kansas City Chiefs. A large portion of the 3,000,000 fans that attend Cards games are from outside St. Louis.

I agree with Bernie. Boras is simply chumming trying to insult ownership into throwing mega bucks at a mediocre player. Matt, we don’t need you that badly! Say hello to the east coast.

Perhaps Holliday sub-consciounsly bootched the plays so there would not be an outdry to keep him here and he’d be free to run with the money?

Why are we acting like Holliday is not going to sign here? Most signs indicate that we are in the lead to sign him. If you read a little into what Boras is saying, he is trying to get the Cards to put up more money. I think that Holliday wants to sign here and Boras is going to try to get as much from the Cards as possible. The big budget teams are all looking at their own players and, what most experts are saying is that Holliday is to risky for the AL. That really doesn’t leave a lot of good options for Holliday if he wants to win for the NL.

So maybe lets all relax a little and see what happens.

The question i have is…you have the ability to set your family on easy street for a couple generations (as long as you’re smart and invest wisely)…what would you do?

While some of you mention it, I don’t think enough can be said in regards to the media size of the St. Louis market. Sure, the games draw solid tv ratings, but that’s in the 21st largest media market in the country. It isn’t just the broadcast rights. It’s the advertising. Without the Fortune 500 companies in St. Louis, we miss out on a large chunk of advertising revenue. Also, those outfield banners are bought by companies that want to be seen on tv too, which falls back to the tv numbers.

While you mention their ability to move merchandise, it still falls well short of NY, Chicago, or LA given the sheer number of fans in those markets–not to mentiond MLB gets a chunk of the merchandising. The teams making the most money are in the largest markets, not the best attended ones. It is a correlation that is ignored by idiots who use the term “DeWallet” and who complain about how cheap the ownership is. Take a Sports Economics course before you start making stupid statements like that.

Scott Boras smells blood. He knows the management is sensitive to being called cheap by those outside of the organization, namely the fan base. If he can get the natives restless like this past summer when even Mo cited their trades as-in-part reactions to the cries of the fanbase, perhaps he can drive up the price beyond what the cards had considered.

The fan in me hopes that he does re-sign. I also hope that if he does sign for huge dollars somewhere else, he sucks and gets booed miserably by his new fans and he forever regrets the move. He should ask Edgar Renteria what the biggest contract can do for happiness.

The proof is in the pudding. Behind the Yankees, we are probably the next most consistent winner since DeWitt took over in 1996. I think this market can justify a $95-110M payroll, considering the Tigers and Mariners can do it. That said, as a businessperson, I will bring my best product to market if someone will buy it…and Cardinals fans are buying it in droves. As a Cardinal fan, I expect an excellent output from this team 2 out of every 3-4 years. 2006 was a run for the ages, but still a 83 win season. 2007 was brutal. 2008 was the most fun you can have in 4th place. 2009 was a lot of fun with a disappointing finish. If we exit the Holliday sweepstakes, fine. If Holliday, DeRosa, Wolf, Lackey, Figgins, Washburn, Smoltz, Bay, Davis, Sheets and Piniero are all playing in other uniforms in 2010, it will be highway robbery.

I suspect that won’t be the case. This team has a need and has the money to bolster it’s offense and bullpen. I expect two of the names above to be playing for STL opening day. If they are not, then and only then will I question what this ownership group is doing.

Boras claimed media revenue doesn’t matter in what a team can pay. That’s arrant nonsense. It’s lower media revenue that marks the Cards in the top of the mid-range, and not in the top tier. As did the railroad monopolies of the 19th c., Boras seeks to get “all that the traffic will bear” for his client. That’s his job; in fact, as an attorney, he’s ethically required to do that. His client may choose not to take that, of course. I’m cynical enough to presume that Boras gets a percentage of his clients’ income–thus creating obvious self-interest that they earn the maximum possible.

I also would not mind letting the youngsters play in April and May and re-evaluate our position then.

By saving some resources, guys like Inge, Dunn, Hawpe, Harang, Webb and Young might be available if their teams are unable to move them now. The asking price would certainly have to drop if we are getting 4 months instead of 6 (although it didn’t in DeRosa’s case!). In the meantime, it would be a great opportunity to see what we REALLY have in Freese, Ryan and Craig. If Tony would stop the platoons and let these guys play, we’d find out if we have the next Ryan Braun on our hands or if they are simply a Joe Mather.

“The question i have is…you have the ability to set your family on easy street for a couple generations (as long as you’re smart and invest wisely)…what would you do?”

John-I honestly have thought about this and I wouldnt want to provide for a couple generations. I would rather teach them to work hard and earn everything, not have it handed to them. That would make them better people.

Lets look beyond this for a moment and congratulate our 2 great Gold Glovers!!! Thanks Adam and Yadi!!

John,

I don’t know if most people would call living in NY ‘easy street’. That is the ace the Cardinals have up their sleeve. I know I wouldn’t let my two boys grow up there - having myself grown up 2 hours outside of NY and having been a Yankees fan for many years.

So according to Bernie, Null is not considered the “long term” answer by the FO folks. Holy Crullers! Who makes these Wizard-of-Oz pronouncements from the pulpit? I hope everyone remembers who it was that we saw making all those good throws and demonstrating great vision and timing! I don’t believe a word of it! I think the FO is feeding Bernie a line so he will feed it to us! That ought to relieve the pressure on the coach to throw Null to the NFL hounds too early! Politics! Bah! I think they are laughing all the way to the bank. If the FO really believed what they were saying, Null would either be released or on the practice squad, where he no doubt would be snapped up real quick! So why isn’t he? Read bewtween the lines folks.

Could you imagine the emotional boost if Matt Holliday took the best offer the Cards could afford and played for the love of the game, team, and the fans? Working WITH the system as apposed to going to the highest bidder because he wants to win and enjoys our city and his teammates. How would he be accepted after doing that in the best baseball town anywhere? Get Matt to talk to Jack Clark, Larry Walker, and Mark McGwire (who would be his hitting coach by the way)and let them show him what team and city is best for him.

Despite Boras’ typical posturing, I am encouraged that the “insiders” don’t see how he will get that type of money in this economic climate. Boras doesn’t dictate the market, he merely plays in it. If owners aren’t willing to cough up this kind of dough, Matt has two options: the Independent League or Japan.

Boras did the same stuff with Lohse and Weaver a couple years back, and he ruined both of their FA deals by reading the market wrong. I’m pretty sure Matt wants no part of taking this into February/March…or even January.

There was one VERY different factor with Mark Tex. last year…the Yankees and Red Sox both needed and wanted him BADLY. The only other team in that $ ballpark was Washington, and they were trying to make a PR splash with the hometown kid. Oh yeah, and he is a GG first baseman, a switch hitter and is capable of 1B, 3B and DH. Holliday is a LF, and an ok one at that. If he isn’t batting .315 for power, he is worth no more than Allen Craig.

I think a couple things need to happen. If the Yanks decide they will re-sign Damon and the Sox re-sign Bay, this is our race to lose. I understand the Angels and Mets would still be in the picture, but I have to believe the Angels money is better spent on Lackey and Figgins and the Mets money is better spent on ANY TYPE OF PITCHING.

If Holliday isn’t locked up by December 15, move on. This guy isn’t the next coming and there will be plenty of other guys like him down the road. LF is not a tough spot to fill, and Ludwick was more than capable of cleanup in 2008.

Sure we can match New York ticket for ticket in the $50 range. The problem is they sell a lot more $500 ticket than we do. P.S. How long before ScottyB floats a rumor that the Cubs are interested in Holliday? I predict… tomorrow.

Joepa,

I wouldn’t say living in NY is “easy street” either. But think of it this way. You could make $120 million just by playing in NY for 7 years…thus making it so your sons can live anywhere they want and do any job they want. They wouldn’t NEED to work 50 or 60 hour weeks for $35K a year (like i do). That’s what i was getting at. When you boil it down…it’s your ability to provide for your family…if i was offered $90m over 7 years from StL or $120 over 7 years…i’d probably take the $120m cause…well…it’d be better for my family.

Bernie, can you please answer the question? STL media is owned by Card’s FO.

Just wake me after Holliday signs somewhere. I hate this part of baseball. I can wait until the spring training games.

I would love to see Holliday on the cards roster,but enough is enough,when will the greed end. Millions of Americans are out of work. Bring some one thru the organization.

Pay Pujols as much a the Yankee first baseman gets. He is worth every bit of it. Sign a good enough hitter to take Holliday’s place and play ball.
I was in high school when Musial was supposed to be given a blank check to fill in what he wanted by the owener. I only heard about it, I don’t know for sure if it is true or not. I do know that since Obama there is going to be a lot taxes paid to the government. All of this money is not going into a bank accound somewhere.
Just how much money does one family need to have anything they want? Although some multi million dollar ball players do manage to spend more than they have and file for bankruptcy.

$100 million payroll IS massive for this market.

I wonder if anyone has considered the impacts of Boras being the agent for more than one player that is being considered by St. Louis for the job in LF as a conflict of interest? Is his collecting contracts for the elite group on whose behalf he acts an act of a monopolistic nature, or just good business? Does the same level of scrutiny that found MLB guilty of collusion apply to the agents of thes players? When someone as useless as Soriano makes the kind of money he does, while a cop or a school teacher can’t pay the mortgage, one has to wonder just how borken the system is.

Another thing I’m wondering about is whether a player under contract to Boras has to pre-agree that he will sign with whomever Boras says makes the best offer, or does the player get to make the choice?

When you see things happen like they are, it really makes you wonder.

Scott Boras says that the Cards can afford Holliday because they draw 3 million plus? So let’s punish those fans for their devotion with higher ticket prices and and insulting comments. Boras is the single worst thing to happen to baseball in the last fifty years. And, yes, I include steroids, labor strife, and Don Denkinger on that list.

I swear there are a lot of negative ditto heads out there. Let me be the FIRST to say it. “The Cardinals WILL sign Matt Holliday.” It’s going to happen. We have way more to offer, including fair market value, than almost every team. Don’t get me wrong he will get paid very well and the payroll will have to increase. DO NOT underestimate Mr. Dewitt. He is a smart man. They are pulling out all the tricks to get him as inexpensively as possible. Mr. Dewitt, Mozeliak, Larussa, Duncan, Pujols, Carpenter, and now McGwire will succeed in selling Holliday the St. Louis “sizzle”. Like Mr. Strauss said today on the Tsunami, “It’s a poker game”.

Well, beers are nearly $8, doesn’t that tell us something?

Yeah, that’s right, I’m owned by the Cardinals. You’re right. Just because I don’t react in shock and awe like some pathetic, mindless Mayberry RFD rube when that ol’ big-city agent Scott Boras spins his BS. Mid-market, upper mid market, middle of the mid market, Straub’s market, Soulard market … who cares about designations? What does it matter? Is this something that gets you aroused? The Cardinals spend around $95 million, $100 million a year. They should spend a little more. I’ve written that about 500 times. But even with what they do spend, it’s been good enough to win more postseason games than any team but the Yankees since DeWitt took over in ‘96. I think that’s been OK.

Whether you believe Matt Holliday is worth the money or not, Albert will be watching to see if the Cards are serious about keeping someone to help protect him and Ludwick….. You may want to sign #15 to keep #5

Mistro, you are an angry, uniformed, child. Please don’t use a keyboard again. Ever.

I would like to see Holiday be a Cardinal next year. But if he moves on, we can stil pursue the combination of Jason Bay and Chone Figgins. Personally, I’d be happier with a fast leadoff hitter and equally capable 4-hole hitter than grosely overpaying for Matt.

I also happen to believe that one of the steady vet arms on the block will be ours. Smoltz would be a great addition.

Holliday will sign with the Yankees–let’s not kid ourselves any longer.

Just want to know how many of you would turn down a 2 to 3 million dollar raise??? Gee how many of you would turn down a 2 dollar an hour raise?? Not many. We all work for the money!!! As the saying goes “If people are willing to watch you work, then you can command any salary you want.”

There are two sensible things said here. Cardinal Nation encompasses a lager area than just the St. Louis Metropolitan area and Scott Boras has been part of the problem with these astronomical salaries that seems to be ruinous to baseball as a whole. Players now days are more interested in how much they can get as oppose to playing for the love of the game. What ever happened to that I don’t know. Boras has commanded ridiculous salaries for some of his clients who have not even thrown or hit a major pitch. Teixeira is a very good player but the salary he got is way out of even his league, he’s is no Pujols. So many of the players Boras has represented and gotten the fat contract have been a bust after signing. Cardinal ownership and fan base will not be that stupid. Holiday should look at what might have been and what could be and tell that 10 gallon head agent of his, hey we can go a long way if I stay here in St. Louis and get that Championship that every little leaguer and pro crave. For the longest time, St. Louis was the farthest West team and they still draw on that but to even consider us a top tier team like New York & Chicago is just dumb. I have lived in San Diego the last 10 years and I only go to the game when my Cardinals are in town. I agree with jfmoyn, I am only interested in batting average, wins and losses, everything else is just cheap whiskey which Misto should stop drinking. Remember, Pujols is watching this whole merry-go-round and if anyone in St. Louis needs to be paid, it’s him. Go Cards.

Personally, I think the Cardinals are wise to hold payroll to right around $100m, allowing for more to add talent during the season when it appears there’s a chance to win all the marbles. Strauss says the Cards can afford a $120m payroll as long as 3 million-plus fans plunk down big bucks each season. Yet I have to wonder when exactly is the baseball bubble going to burst like we saw recently in the housing market. Salaries can’t keep going into orbit just as home values were. Ticket, parking and concession prices can’t keep skyrocketing in turn and still have Main Street Americans showing up to watch America’s game in person. How much is too much?

If, during Holliday’s 7-8 year no-trade (cough) “franchise player” (cough, cough) contract, he develops a power decline (see B. Giles; see B. Abreu, among other examples in baseball history), and if the Cardinals offense has more of this past September and October than July and August, causing the team to have more divisional 3rd or 4th place seasons than 1st place seasons, will 3 million-plus still show up at escalating baseball entertainment prices? With the team then handcuffed with so much money tied up in two players (Albert the Great and Holliday) and no great hitters growing on the farm, what then? I trust the Cards to field 1st place caliber teams at minimum 2 out of every 5 years on average. With so much riding on two franchise contract hitters and maybe two big contract pitchers, I simply question if that’s a recipe for a healthy overall mlb franchise outside of NY, LA and Chicago.

Amen — SouthernIllinoisBoy. Giles has been a bust here in San Diego and to think I thought that the Redbirds should sign him to replace Larry Walker a few years ago. No one in baseball has shown more consistency the Prince Albert and he is more on the upside that Holiday. We still need to sign him but at a reasonable price so we can lock up Pujols next year. But none of this can be done at the expense of the fans. If we the fans can’t afford to go to the game, DeWitt will have to sit in every seat in the stadium to get his 3,000,000 fans. I have a first hand view of payroll dumping here is SD which is why they are losers and why I do not go to the game until the Cards hit town and I go all three games (this year four) when they are here.

Bernie’s got Boras read like a book and it’s best to just ignore Boras and his BS. If Holliday doesnt want to be here by now fine, it’s not the end of the world, and it’s certainly not the end of the Cardinals.

Boras is a piece of work. He’s trying to use Cardinals fans to get the big dollar contract that he wants for his client by stirring up fan resentments and questions over how much Cardinals ownership spends. It’s no secret in baseball circles that the fans have grumbled at times and that ownership is sensitive to charges of being cheap. Boras’ comments were a very transparent attempt to stir the pot. I’ll be darned if I’m interested in padding his bank account or helping Matt Holliday get ridiculous money. I trust the FO to make a fair effort to get Holliday, but not lose their heads and do something stupid that would hamstring the club for years to come.

I’m not saying to jump into the deep end over Holliday, but Boars, DG, and Wheeler do raise ligitmate points about the Cardinals spending. The Cardinals are in fact capable of spending more then they have been, and DeWitt hides behind the “mid-market” label as much as any owner in baseball.

I understand the economic factors that Hummel pointed out being the reason that they didn’t spend at the begining of last year. But it seems like DeWitt is trying to stay around the $100 million payroll mark. For the Cardinal fan loyalty in terms of gate revenue and merchandise sales, I don’t see why he shouldn’t be looking at spending more like $110-$120 million. Again, not saying spend the additonal payroll on Holliday, but to not spend more to shore up obvious problems is absurd to me.

Answer the question Bernie!

I agree with Gould that St. Louis is a mid-market city, but a major market club, and I like it that way. If that means we avoid overpaid ego maniacs like A-Rod and Manny, so be it.

Mistro,

Your mastery of the English language and all things baseball related astonishes me.Trade Pujols? LaRussa is an idiot? For sure.As for the hacks who run this newspaper/website,that is another subject.Bryan Burwell is a racist who should be fired or,if he had any class,should resign.As far as Ms. Nelson goes-I don’t know that she has ever written an article I have read,so I really don’t care either way.
Now let’s talk baseball.You suggest we trade Pujols,because as you stated he is an “age liar” and he obviously has used steroids.As far as the steroids thing goes-I don’t believe it for a minute.People can become that strong naturally-it takes work which is something alot of people just plain don’t want to commit to anymore.But it can be done.As far as age goes-whatever you want to believe.
You also call LaRussa “LaGenius”-because your clever like that.LaRussa has the most wins among active managers and 3rd most all time.You call him a “steroid enabler”.What about Torre? Several Yankee players were implicated as well.But you probably call Torre a genius and wish we had Whitey Herzog back.
This is becoming kind of a long post so I will wrap it up by saying this:Next time that you have a thought,go ahead and post it because we all need a good laugh now and then-just maybe tone down the language because you come across as an idiot and there are younger fans out there who read these post in the hopes of maybe educating themselves.And then they run into an idiot like you.

I think Bernie has this one entirely correct. Ignore Boras’ comments and his ultimatims. He will do whatever it takes to get his clients the most money. If Holliday really wanted to stay here, this would not be going on. The deal could get done and he would be set for a long time. However, since this will play on into February, or later, that is all we need to know. Boras relies on setting the bar at the level of the dumbest (or most easily manipulated) competitor will pay. I for one, don’t really care what Holliday does.

Bernie , in your accolades of DeWitt as rather smart, and sane, you forgot one other character trait.. LIAR…(regarding ballpark village)..Readers can google Dewitt’s involvement in the Texas rangers new stadium when he pulled the very same stunt down there…

Most men(or women)who reach the level of financial success DeWitt has don’t get their by being choirboys… Lies, deceit, half truths, whatever it takes to get what you want right?

The club knows they can count on 3 million fans a year! They should use good judgment and planing and spend accordingly.Part of the reason their in the bind their in now is because they were “too tight” over the last couple years and didn’t sign available power hitters to fill the power gap..

Gentleman
I would like to ask if there might be any consideration in the free agent and trade talks about going after someone like the Tigers Curtis Granderson. I beleive he has 26 or 28 million dollar remaining contract for several years and it seems the Tigers may be looking to trim salary. The reason his name came up was because of his baseball skills and the way he conducted himself during the 2006 World Series in St. Louis. I also have seem him in various interviews since and, if availible, would be a St Louis type of player even though he is a centerfielder

The guy blundered a championship game with 2 outs in the 9th! What more needs to be said about negotiations?

Actually Miguel, DG uses the correct form of its/it’s (unless he changed it, in which case your post is still beyond petty). It’s not supposed to be “it’s.” I can’t stand wannabe English teachers that invade this site and attempt to demonstrate their command of the language as if anyone cares. No one does. We’re here to talk sports. This is an article on a Web site, not even appearing in print. Do you think sometimes they don’t get to go through the full editing process on the online-only stories? BTW, confusing it’s/its is one of the most common grammatical errors made with our language. It’s not such a horrible error, even for a HS student, as you point out. Major factual and grammatical errors are one thing. Why don’t you quit editing these stories for free and offer unwanted feedback. Get a job as a proofreader somewhere and leave us alone?

I very briefly mentioned a grammatical problem with the post, which was corrected.

I then offered what I thought was a fairly reasoned opinion on the market-classification of St. Louis. If the fact that I may have a problem with writing/editing from my news sources somehow negates that opinion, then yes - I should probably just go somewhere else.

I was not trying to offend anyone or be petty. I apologize if my being annoyed by improper use of the “its/it’s” distinction bothers people. I’ll go hawk my nefarious wares on one of those SABR blogs.

Miquel, Mr. Goold is grammatically correct. “Its” is a possessive referring to St.Louis– not “it’s,” which is a contraction for “it is.”

Yes, I know. It was corrected in the post.

I’m not clear on what top, mid, and small markets really mean.
The agent is probably saying the Cardinals owners are cleaning up
on their combination - new ballpark, attendance, sponsorships and
promotional revenue, food and beverage.

But as far as sports topic…more important to look at the
convention hotel going down, probably Union Station and its hotel,
the Chase is in trouble. Nobody comes to St. Louis anymore.
Our sports town is disappearing.

Probably a better topic around the water cooler ‘has Checketts
sold out’ Kiel Opera House…again…either to the Fox and grand
center or just shifting his time, attention and money to other
projects?

With the money you gentlemen report on $15 million needed in private
financing is not pocket change..it is under-the-lint, in the bottom-
of-the-pocket change.

The 15 million is not the issue..money never has been the issue
with kiel…the withholding of money has.

probe this and open it up..it is connected, it is all connected.

Start with Boras’ decision to send his free agent to Texas following the 2000 season. Rodriguez wanted to play for the Mets, his boyhood team. He wanted to steal New York from those charmed princely hands belonging to Derek Jeter, the shortstop who had just beaten the Mets in the World Series. A-Rod told his friends, his relatives and his agent the very same thing - I want to be a Met.