I agree with the attitude that what’s best for everyone has been missing, in the context of the economic crisis. Those with money to lose have spoke out, while it’s those with little to no money lose the most. For those who have little to climb back above poverty line, the economy itself must be strong.

Though numbers-wise, taxing the wealthy will only pay for a small portion of what’s needed across the board. It’s a good start.

I have it in myself to ask “What is best for everyone that works for it, or tries, or has no choice but to accept help.” You stated the exact reason our system is broke. Too many people on food stamps/wellfare. Our system can be fixed by stopping food stamps and wellfare checks and free housing to people who don’t even make an attempt to work for what they get. The Dummycrats are doing their best to turn this into a communist country, by taking money from the people who actually do the work, and giving it to a bunch of lazy idiots for doing nothing but sitting on their collective butts. I have no problem helping people who need it. Obviously times are tough, and many people have lost jobs, and are looking for work. These are the people that need help. I have a problem with hand outs for perfectly able bodied people who don’t even bother to look for work. I’ve yet to see a McDonald’s without a “Help Wanted” sign in the window. And yes, I realize this is probably not enough money for a person or family to get by on. But I didn’t make the choice for that person to treat their education as nothing but a nuisance. I didn’t make the choice for that person to spend years after high school smoking pot instead of being responsible and working towards a career like I did. I didn’t make the choice for that person to pop out 4 kids by the time they were 22 while I waited until I was 33 with a home, wife, and good wage to support my family. Even so, I would be more inclined to help a family WORKING on a low wage with a little extra help. As long as they’re trying.

I think this is the second five minute installment from this guy. According to the gospel of Andy Warhol, he has five minutes of fame left. Here’s an idea. Why don’t you preach to the liberals who are so parsimonious with their charitable giving. You can start with Biden. You should be ashamed to adopt the tactics of the secular progressives who feel compelled to discredit anyone who disagrees with their leftist doctrines. To quote Arthur Laffer, you can’t make poor people rich by making rich people poor.

What is best for everyone is to general. As a society we are responsible for taking care of those that can’t take care of themselves. Where does that start and stop. To some, a mother in her early twenties that has five children with five different fathers needs to be taken care of. With me, it stops there. People that need to be taken care of in my mind are those with severe mental or physical disabilities. Not those that choose to get themselves into a rut that they have no desire to get out of as long as they continue to get a check. What is best for me is to go to work everyday, provide for myself and my family in every aspect & take care of our parents in their old age.

There will always be rich people and most of those rich people help the needy more than you will know. If someone didn’t have the drive to make a lot of money, where would the Salvation army and the United Way be today? The fact is that there wouldn’t be one. What is best for everyone is not a fare question because everyone is not the same, and everyone has different values in life. That is why we have different levels of society. Some have more drive to be successful that others and they should not be penalized for doing so.

Last of all, many small businesses are sole ownerships and not corporations. If the sole owner gets the business to where it shows an income of over $240,000.00 he has finally made enough money to advance his or her business to the next level. That may mean the addition of several more employees, buying a building instead of renting. Putting more people in the workforce. Why should that small business owner be charged for doing that? You tell me whats fair.

Thank you Rev for supporting the main idea behind the FairTax. You may, however, take the remainder of your proto-Marxist collectivism elsewhere.

PS. You don’t need a license to be a plumber any more than you need a license to be an artist. The people who are pushing this stupid notion are idiots.

An Obama/Biden administration simply wants this: take the money you busted your rear end off for, and give it to those who haven’t worked, don’t want to work, or in the millions who don’t pay taxes at all! Now, WHAT, I ask, benefit do any of you see in voting for the guy? My God.

Oh, and by the way, while Obama/Biden want you to pay more if you earn more, Biden is THE EXPERT on spreading around the wealth. In fact, you may want to know just how generous he is. Last year, he donated a whopping $360 to the less fortunate. Folks, please punch the correct button this election.

I also agree that the attitude should be what’s best for everybody. But that is not the whole issue here. To take from someone who got the “break” is VERY shortsighted. The break that most people talk about comes because the didn’t give up when the going got tough.

The “lucky” people are those that stuck out the hard times. They are willing to be patient and tweak their circumstances until things work out right. They are willing to take the risk of total failure, hoping in the end it works.

No one has the moral right to take riches and other rewards, from someone who has the guts to fight. Successful people have fought usually for 20-30 years before they got that “break” you describe!

Instead of feeding a man a fish, why don’t we get back into the habit of teaching them to fish, get them off welfare and out of my pocket!

Great article. I don’t think throwing Joe into the center of all this was a good idea. To the Republican Party, he was just putting a face to the issue they have with Barack and the Democrat’s tax policy…but he is a real person. It does provide an example, but was it the best one?

As for the tax code, I believe in America - hard work should pay off BUT the tax code shouldn’t just reward the successful, (it should not punish them either) and that is what it currently does and would continue to due under McCain. Doesn’t it make since that 3% of $1 is worth more to the person with $1 than what 3% of $100 is to a person with $100? This is very simplistic, but it’s true. John admitted he needs to learn more about economics.

To that, (climb on my soapbox) I get pretty miffed when people throw around “the liberal elite” (climb down). I don’t think it is elitist at all to want someone educated, measured and learned to represent our Nation to the world.

Vote to your conscience and don’t look at color. Imagine each candidate were the opposite color than what they are - really challenge yourself. Do you feel the same? We are all allowed to have separate view points, and we will never agree on all things - but vote for who you truly believe will be the best representative and leader for our Nation.

Rev. Scott, Some of these guy’s are hitting you pretty hard. They are forgetting what you do for a living. You would not be in ministry if you thought any different. It has to be difficult to be able to defend every everyones opinion. I think that is what someone in your position has to do in your heart. I don’t think much like you when it comes to peoples problems, but I respect your position.

Let’s everyone calm down and try and think for a second. It is true that under Obama’s tax plan “Joe the Plummer” would have to pay more taxes, approximately $773, you’re telling me that someone with a net income of $250,000 plus can not pay less than .5% more in taxes so that everyone making less than $250k can have a tax cut? Who really needs the extra income?

The trickle up poverty plan of Obama will not work just as the trickle down policies of the past have been a total disaster. Why people are against a flat tax rate is beyond me. Maybe it is time to try it, nothing else seems to work.

First Tom -
I am a business owner, much like Joe the Plumber wants to be. Our income is none of your business, but I can assure you we have donated to McCain’s campaign heftily, because over the years, Carter and Clinton were the ones hitting us, “the little guys,” hard. Need any more proof? And I just can’t wait to have the first lady shoving lobster and imported caviar in her face while other people, like you, starve. I’m so sorry.

Great comment First Tom. In spite of the overwhelming attitude of most, Rev. Scott must continue to remind us of the the ideal to which we all should strive. We all know what our God expects of us yet our human nature leaves us selfish and dispassionate. Rev. Scott, you keep on reminding us. In these times we need to hear His word more than ever.

Good to see plenty of the truly greedy citizens stopping by to share their opinions. The rest of us work pretty hard for our dollars, too.

Hello Everyone:

This is Joe the Plumber. I think it’s time that you all learned my real identity:

Turns out my real name is Joe Wurzelbacher from Milford, Ohio. I’m Charles Keating’s son-in-law. You know the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan? The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years. So I’m not what I’ve been out to be.

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

I’ve always felt that Liberals always sort of asked, “What is best for everyone?”, which would include themselves, their neighbors and strangers elsewhere who might be in need. The very foundation of Liberalism is the dignity of each and every individual. Conservatives, on the other hand, seem generally to have a paranoid “What’s in it for me?” attitude. They have their bank account and way of life and don’t want anyone messing with the status quo in any way that would affect their superior status. No taxes on income (or capital gains, or estates), no welfare or other assistance to the poor, no public money spent on immigrants. Even though many conservatives inherited family money to get their financially-oriented adults lives under way, they want everyone else to have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. The coming election will tell us if most Americans have in their souls “What is best for everyone.

I’ve always felt that liberals are constantly shouting

“WHAT’S BEST FOR NON-WHITES (excluding Native Americans), ILLEGALS, CRIMINALS, FEMINISTS, and HOMOSEXUALS !?!”

and that’s all they ever do.

One beauty of the market system is that individual self-interest (which is not greed but that is the subject of another commentary) is satisfied only by pleasing other people, and the structure of the market leads individual interest “as if by an invisible hand” to support the public interest. No such mechanism exists in the institutions of government

http://www.businessandmedia.org/commentary/2008/20081008080731.aspx

Brian,
Assuming Joe the Plumber is what he says, the $250k her refers to is not “net income”. In small businesses, generally organized as Sub Chapter S corps, the income flows through to the owner and is taxed at his tax rate. Out of his “revenues” of $250k, he has to pay all the expenses of the business: trucks, gas, tools and the salaries and benefits of the employees. He’d be luck to “net” $60k. He’s really rich, right? I’ve lived through the last big tax increase in the late eighties and saw first hand what will happen. Business owners will reduce the easiest thing they can, payroll. Every doctors’ office will layoff a receptionist or clerk because the doctor isn’t going to make any less. You are just going to wait longer for your visit. Unemployment will go up. Interest rates will go up. Yes, it will be a wonderful time for everyone.

Wow! Looks like I hit a nerve on this one, or rather the candidates have. No one loves to pay taxes - in fact the Gospel lesson in most worship services this weekend will allude to the fact that even in the time of Christ tax collectors were judged pretty harshly! We pay them though because we need the things that they provide as a community. It looks to me like the few people who have the most are benefiting from the current arrangement of things while the rest of us fight with one another and are victimized. Joe the plumber you are a victim too because you aspire to something that looks like it is beyond your reach while you struggle to be satisfied with what you have. I read somewhere that the plumber said all he really wants is a house, a bass boat and a couple of guns. That seems like a reasonable dream but there is more to life Joe. I think that the current state of affairs has shown us that we are all in the same ‘boat’ together and someone needs to speak up for the folks who are up the creek without a paddle…

I would just add that “What is best for me” may mean taking a job that I don’t like, working or working harder, saving or saving more and spending less.

Stay tuned, by the way: next week I plan to report to you here about a meeting I recently attended with a pension planner about health care insurance and also a lunch I plan to have with a Christian CEO of a brokerage firm.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. Right Pastor?

Scott, I guess I don’t quite get what your trying to say. I don’t want to know what your income is and will not tell what mine is. I have been in a small to medium size business for 24 years now. I’m a registered Republican and donate to many organizations including the Republican party. Your comment is totally unfounded and I can assure you that I will not starve not matter what anyone else is eating. I hope you are not in any kind of retail business with your nasty attitude. I can’t even figure out why you came back with such foolish comments. I think you need to read my post again. There is something there that you are not getting.

Just for the record, Scott isn’t deleting comments. I am. Got a problem, take it up with me. If you follow the Rules of the Road, you can have all the First Amendment rights you want — including criticizing me. But if you make personal attacks, use racist hate speech, go off topic, your comment will be deleted.

Now, review the Rules of the Road…the link is on every post, just below the comment box. Let’s get back to the point.

I Predict,

Shouldn’t you stop reading the Post if you hate it so? Or do you really like it and are just afraid to let your liberal self show?

Of course, all information must be viewed in partisan terms and Rev. Scott is a Thought Nazi as long as he says and acts in ways that run counter to my partisan view.

Rev. Scott,

Good points, but you should have mentioned that shared prosperity benefits Joe in the long run. The community and the individual are not mutually exclusive. If he’s running his plumbing business, he needs customers and lots of them. If they’re better off, then they can better choose to update their pipes or remodel their bathroom.

‘I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.’

Winston Churchill

A lot of the “taxing the wealthiest more = socialism” type of comments seem to be largely based on severe misconceptions and assumptions.

Firstly, many Joe the Plumber supporters are acting like a system of taxation is an entirely new concept never seen in America. Taxation is not socialism folks, it is a key part of Capitalism and it has enabled our country to build itself and prosper. “Taxation without Representation!” was the cry of the revolutionaries, not “Down with Taxes!”

Your elected representatives decide how tax revenue is dispensed and spent, and it is spread among many, many programs that benefit you indirectly and directly. So the belief that Barrack Obama will personally sit in th White House and decide how every tax dollar is spent is laughable.

Which leads to my next point, which is a huge - and false - assumption that the “socialism” argument is built on. The increase in taxes to the wealthiest citizens are not going to be handed to non-working, poor people. Yes, programs that help them may see a revenue increase, but nobody has ever once talked about a massive expansion of welfare. Not once.

What the money will go to is a better health care system, a better education system, public works projects that supply jobs, and innovations in energy and science, all of which will benefit wealthy people as well as the mother of five who doesn’t work.

Right now a huge portion of our tax dollars are being spent in Iraq directly benefiting non-Americans who after years of benefiting from your hard work, cannot even get their own government to get organized and build their own country’s infrastructure. Where’s your outrage over that? And it’s now being spent to benefit a Wall Street that went amuck with greed and corruption. Where’s your outrage over that?

Wealth is NOT being “redistributed” to the non-working poor. That is an utterly false notion planted in your heads by a desperate political campaign. What Obama and Biden are proposing are a changed system of taxing and spending, where money is spent more responsibly and in a way that benefits a broader cross-section of America.

I want my money to be spent educating a child whose family can’t afford to educate him - not bombs and bullets, and not rewarding corruption. That’s not socialism - it’s the right thing to do.

Scott,

I would contend that you are mistaken. It’s not sharing prosperity that you are seeking, it’s spreading it. Don’t reward anybody at the expense of the prosperous. Don’t reward anybody. Don’t give anybody more than they care to work for. Instead, create an economy that puts the the American dream within the grasp of those who would reach for it. That’s all you can do. Forced prosperity is something that doesn’t exist. Tax breaks for the middle and poor are bandaids. Do what it takes to make business work right - I want my boss to be rich. I want the guys who have money to invest to put into my company and make more money. I’m much better off when those things happen.

STEVE HOLT!

But, Obama was the one that said he wanted to “spread the wealth around.” (to Joe the plumber, whether he’s a plant or not is irrelavent.)

If you cut the middle and poor’s taxes at the expense of the overtaxed rich (yeah I get it, boohoo, but the system is already unbalanced), that’s an effective wealth redistribution, and we will eventually keep doing it until you call it socialism, but that’s what it is at any level.

Eventually we will kill the idea of achieving success for that middle class we were trying to make prosperous.

We have a system where 40% pay nothing. They only take. With such a system, it only takes ten percent of the rest to elect liberals who will give them more at the expense of the achievers who do the work. This is just the first step. There will be more and higher tax rates for higher incomes. I predict in four years, $250k will be only a stepping stone to higher rates at $500k $1 million and Gates and Buffet, you better move your dough offshore, because its only a short step for this bunch of takers to wonder why you need that much money?

“Where’s your outrage over that? And it’s now being spent to benefit a Wall Street that went amuck with greed and corruption. Where’s your outrage over that?”

If you haven’t heard the right’s outrage over these, you haven’t been listening.

Nobody is taking anybody’s money and giving it to the poor like Robin Hood! The idea is to let the lower income bracket KEEP more of their money, therefore giving them more to spend - benefiting the wealthy, which offsets the increase in their taxes! By lowering taxes for the bottom and increasing those that can afford necessities and much, much more, we are reviving the economy and not interrupting the flow of revenue that already sustains the country.

If you’re not working, you don’t pay taxes, therefore you don’t have more money because you CAN’T BENEFIT FROM LOWER TAXES WHEN YOU’RE NOT PAYING THEM.

There’s no “slippery slope” into socialism Mike, because your theory is based on the completely false notion that the wealthy will have their money taken from them and handed to those that don’t earn it. That’s just simply wrong, as is any notion that those that don’t work will be getting some sort of free ticket.

I welcome the comment which suggested I had to have an egalitarian attitude because of what I do for my profession. Of course what I do is to encourage others to have the same attitude! In short what I am saying is that if you have enough to care for your livelihood while others struggle it is not just ‘godly’ to share, it is essential to the survival of us all. You don’t have to label it as socialism (or any other ‘ism’) actually I consider it to be God’s economy (that IS because of my profession!) Maybe it is as simple as the lesson we learned when we were little and our sibling got more than we did because his or her need was greater at that moment. I am going to be optimistic enough to hope that our current economic strain could cause us to come together instead of divide us.

Steve Holt
4:25 pm October 17th, 2008

Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama promises to “cut taxes for 95% of American workers.” That’s not possible. Why? More than 30% pay nothing in federal income taxes. Obama comes up with this number by calling tax credits “tax cuts.” When Obama’s credits go to people who pay no federal income taxes or who pay less than the value of the credit, they are not “tax cuts.” They are transfers of money from one pocket to another, or redistributions of wealth, but they are not tax cuts.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=309043468254194

Scott,

Doesn’t expecting the successful to enjoy having money taken away from them ignores the fallen nature of this world? Advocate for it, but trying to legislate it is like garnishing wages for a tithe.

Steve Holt,

“There’s no “slippery slope” into socialism Mike, because your theory is based on the completely false notion that the wealthy will have their money taken from them and handed to those that don’t earn it.”

No, I have not misconception that it will be given to those that didn’t earn it. But, it will be taken from those who did. Those who already carry the burden. Ask Obama. He said it, he’s trying spread around the wealth. He defined socialism quite nicely right to Joe’s face.

“we are reviving the economy and not interrupting the flow of revenue that already sustains the country.”

Except for investing. Let’s tax that, because only the rich get benefit from it right? Let’s put a tax (not exactly an incentive) on an activity that can really get the economy moving. Smart.

If he’s not into socialism, then he must be into buying votes.

Mike, in the Bible it is called ‘gleaning’ and it just means that the guy who owns the crop can’t pick it ALL. He was expected to leave a little behind so that others who owned nothing could come along and pick the left-overs. It was not picked and handed to them. The did have to work for it and I suppose the crop owner might have resented not being able to pick the field clean but it was that culture’s way of providing a safety net. I wonder what a contemporary equivalent might be?

Hmm, why on earth is a preacher talking politics. I thought these liberals hated that.

Think!
Me thinks that you don’t want others to think unless they think the way that you think? phwweee “That really thinks”

Back to the original question about asking what is best for everyone, rather than just best for me.

You folks have taken this entirely to a monetary level. I feel sorry for you if that is the only measure of what is “best” for you. If you have a family, you worry about other people and look out for them. If you have no family, but have good friends, ditto. If you have no good friends, and you live in a community, it behooves you that the police and ambulance come when you call, that the firefighters are responsible, that the guy at the grocery doesn’t cheat you, and that the school teachers and parents teach your neighbors’ children to be honest and law abiding.

If you have no family, no friends, no community, and have $100 million dollars and live in the middle of a 5000 acre estate you are more impoverished than the youngest kid in welfare family in a ghetto.

The concept that a good upbringing, good education and hard work will make one successful isn’t entirely true. There is the matter of luck, and the matter of opportunity. I know plenty of people who are not ’successful’ because they will not claw their way to the top by stepping on the hands of those who helped them out. I know lots of out of work people with good educations — but they are ‘overqualified’ for the few jobs out there, and others will not hire them for McJobs that reason, unless they lie on applications. Not everyone has the personality to be an entrepreneur. Not everyone has the health to work a 40 hour week. It’s really easy to get discouraged when the world keeps kicking you in the face.

Joe is right that the government should not be a hindrance to creating wealth. But on the other hand, the wealthy have a responsibility to help the less fortunate. It is called noblesse oblige — even the king realized that without his serfs and slaves, and servants and loyal subjects, he could be taken down in a heartbeat.

What got America through the Great Depression was the cooperation of the common person helping their neighbor out, and the government helping where it could. Not all made it, and yes, some took horrid advantage of the setup, but very few survived without mutual assistance. When a fire dept. calls for backup, it is called mutual aid. And heaven help us if we’ve forgotten that.

I learned today why FDR is on the dime. I don’t think I can ever look at a dime again without thinking why.

Kudos Teresa,

“What is best for everyone?

Jesus counseled nonviolence … and refused to counter-attack with violence when nailed to the cross. In light of the words and example of Jesus, what role do you see for the military in … the United States?
***
Jesus … said that a person should abandon his mother and his father, son and daughter in order to follow him: How would you apply this teaching to family values?
***
Jesus said “Give all that you own to the poor” …. How does this inform your understanding of tax policy and the redistribution of wealth?
***
Jesus included foreigners, strangers, and aliens in his compassion. How would this practice inform your understanding of America’s immigration policy and its responsibilities to people in other nations?
***
Jesus said to his disciples that the best way for them to serve him was by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and housing the homeless. How would this teaching inform your understanding of domestic policy and the revenues necessary to put it into effect?

Leave a little of the crop? Under Obama’s proposal, I will be leaving 45% (39.5% Fed and 6% State), not counting sales tax, and property tax. The way I see it, I am already leave about 65% in the fields. How much is enough? I also donate 20% of my income to charity. That will have to be where the difference is made up. Can I mention your name at my church when they wonder why I can’t give as much next year? How I help the disadvanted should be my decision, not some left wing, socialist Chicago pol.

BAR STOOL ECONOMICS (UPDATED FOR OBAMA’S TAX PROPOSAL …”TO SPREAD THE MONEY AROUND”)

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay______________ $ 1.
The sixth would pay ______________$ 3.
The seventh would pay ____________$ 7.
The eighth would pay_____________ $12.
The ninth would pay______________$18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

And so… that’s what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a real curve. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost (read tax) of your daily beer by $20. ”Drinks for all ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘ fair share?’ They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then both the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free . But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

“I only got a dollar out of the $20, ”declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, ” but he got $10!”

“Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!”

“That’s true!!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!”

“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison. “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!”

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half the bill.

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere would be somewhat more friendly.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed: For those who do not understand, no explanation…is possible! In a nutshell, this is how our tax system works.

NOW lets look at what Obama WANTS to do.

The bartender decides $80 isn’t enough for the beer (read tax) so he goes back to charging $100. (read tax increase)

Except now the bartender decides the tenth man is going to pay all that extra $20 and he’s going to reduce the share of the bill the first nine men pay and make the 10th man pick up all that slack too!

Since the share of the bill for the first five was nothing, the bartender is going to now give them money to drink the beer. The 10th man (read wealthy) is now paying for that too.

And Obama says…. “that is spreading the money around” LOL!!!

‘jjk’ wow 45% is an awful lot of tax. Sounds like you could use a better accountant. Didn’t I read somewhere that the higher tax rate proposed only applied to any amount over the $250,000?

‘Think’ regarding preachers talking politics there was a famous theologian named Karl Barth who suggested that everyone should think theologicaly with the paper in one hand and the Bible in the other. I, of course, had to put them both down in order to type this! Faith is relevant and, if it is important to you, then it permeates everything. I don’t preach about poliltics at all - just point to God and let the spirit do the rest of the job. This dialogue is unusual for me but these are important times and it is awesome to be involved.

‘profff’ I am not sure I grasp the entirety of you analogy of the 10 guys buying beer but I think I sat next to them the last time I was at the baseball game!

“Do you think that Americans have it within ourselves to look at the current state of affairs and ask, “What is best for everyone?” and not just, “What is best for me?””

NO. It would seem that it would be best for everyone if we defeated terrorism, but some actively fight against us doing that. Some want the nations secret programs to remain that way, others think illegally leaking them to the NY SLimes is fine.

The government does NOTHING efficiently. Giving them more power or money is only feeding their inefficiency. Look at what happens after a natural disaster, while government “relief” agencies are filling out paperwork and going through sexual harassment training, private charities (many religious based) are on the ground helping people. A government that can give you anything you desire can also take away from you all you need. If it is truly our calling to help our brother (in the form of money) that help is wasted in government bureaucracy. If you think government can solve the problems with more money, fine, send them more of your money, they will take it, but let me decide where my money can do the most good.

Some people mention Warren Buffet and his tax rate, and HIS money. While he rightfully claims the tax code is screwed up, he didnt will his money to the government, he willed it to outside charities (The Gates Foundation.)

I’m voting for him as a write-in

http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/10/15/who-is-joe-the-plumber/

To all of you laizzez faire capitalism ideologs:

How does a $4,000,000,000 tax incentive to oil companies fit into your philosophy? How do R&D grants to corporations square with laizzez faire? Explain the $700,000,000 bailout and McCain’s $150,000,000 mortgage buy back as following that pure capitalism belief. Price supports for tobacco companies? Tax deductions because you lost money in the market? Schedule C? You wish to get rid of “socialism? Think that one all the way through.

It’s over

It is not over STL. If the ‘it’ you refer to is our country and our economy. It is changing, though, and that is certanily the source of the angst we are sharing in this forum. My post was just expressing the hope that as we do what we must do to sure up our way of life (and I don’t doubt that we will) we don’t just rescue bankers, brokers and business people. Someone needs to help us to remember the uninsured, the working poor, and the disenfranchised. One of the things which scripture does to find assurance when it is not clear where the future is going is to remember the past and mine from it the stories about where deliverance has come before. That is a practice which can help us to keep the faith. Keep the faith STL. Even if you take the scripture out of the equation we have observed how difficult times have brought out the best in people and caused us to pull together. The birth of something new always means that something old is over after all.

The reason the system is broken is that there are too many lazy asses laying around waiting for their government hand outs. Those who work hard, manage their money, and have their priorities straight do just fine if the government stays off their back. Taxing success and rewarding laziness will never work - Obama, if elected, will be a dismal failure.

What is best for everyone is that a socialist Negro not be elected president.

Mr. Lohse,
What is best for everyone? You ask this question of the middle and upper class but why not the lower class? Why are they not also held accountable to this country? I am not talking about the disabled or senior citizens, I’m talking about “Joe the dropout with 5 kids” who never aspired to do anything with his life and never will because people like you want to enable him.

Greed is a sin, I get it, but so is sloth.

Pastor Scott, I’ve thought for a long time that a careful reading of the Bible suggests that the Godly society is what we would call socialist today. From the ancient laws about Sabbatical years and years of Jubilee, the gleaning laws you pointed out, up through the early Christian days in Acts (remember what happened to Ananias and Saphira?), I see ’socialism’ throughout scripture.

Thank you for bringing up Karl Barth. A very important Christian thinker for our times. He’s not easy to read today. I’ve often thought that the “Barmen Declaration” is one of the greatest statements of Christian principle in the face of political upheaval ever written. More of us ought to read it.

Scott, hs,

Great, I agree. BUT, you are talking about the ancient state of Israel that had direct access to God through prophets judges etc. You are talking about a THEOCRACY. Ask the liberals here how they feel about that.

In a world where we all agree on how to take care of the poor, and we all agree on WHY, then this would work. Try it forced in a state, and you’ll have to put a totalitarian in power. then what.

“Jmas” The sin of ’sloth’ also occurred to me as I wrote that last post but I didn’t include it. You are correct, of course - we are humans and we have shortcomings. We have all benefited from the work of others, I suppose.

Mike, One more thought: My reading of the Bible tells me that the greatest ire of the Prophets (ever read Amos?) and Jesus was reserved for the wealthy and powerful who failed to use their wealth and power for the benefit of the less fortunate.

Now, whether this happens as a matter of law, or custom, I wonder what a modern day Amos or Elijah would say about those with wealth and power who manipulate the laws and the law makers to benefit themselves?

Whoa! I could have been Joe the Plumber 30 years ago. I worked 16 hour days and within 3 years, this Shawaee Indian went from 1 employee to over 300. That was at the time when th the Savings and loans crashed. I expanded my business, Residential real estate development. I could do that because I was in a good cash position.

I retired when I was 38 when a conglomerate of Investors from Seattle and Anchorage bought my holdings.

The thing Pastor Scott apparently does not understand is that one should help themselves before they can help others. Ihave helped others, he can verify that by a simple fone call to the Jennings School District in Oklahoma. Working with the State, the USDA, and my personal donations, we enabled that school District to go from the bottom in academic proficiency to the top in TWO YEARS.

Pastor Scott,the moral high ground is mine, not yours. I am an Athiest, I don’t tell others what to do I lead, and put my money where my mouth is.

Ill be back to explain my actions, you may be uncomfortable. It’s 9:00 A.M. and time for me to have a Heinekin.

I like atheists they are free thinkers but beer for breakfast? I think I will have a bagel!

hs - I don’t think the New Testament affirms any one form of government becasue the last word always - this world is passing away… The question is what do we do in the mean time and the answer is typically to advocate for those who don’t have anyone else to do it for them.

Mr. Lohse,
Of course I have benefited from the work of others, but not through re-distribution of wealth, through working together to achieve a goal. We are not doing our lower class any favors by never demanding more of them.

Pastor Scott, I’m sorry that it took me so long, I usually put my beer opener on the refrigerator, and had to look for it because I put it in the sink. I am not infallible.

Now, for the Christian Religion, Did you know that that the consensus it that one should tithe 10 percent of their income? Right? That is the money they should give your Church. You have read that in the Bible about Tithing, haven’t you?

Nos tell me which direction your God, and his entourage was travelling when he stopped by to create the Heaven and earth? I would bet you can’t because you only are interested in Money. The more you make the more your church pays you? Right?

You could be Joe the Plumber in sheep’s attire. Are you?

I’ll be back when you answer, or if you don’t I’ll be back anyway.

Johnh, you are fun to dialogue with. I used to be on debate team in school and I am familiar with the mode of attacking the other team when you don’t have anything to offer of your own. I do just fine financially, thank you very much and I have never preached a sermon about tithing only 10% - that is because I believe that after I have taken care of myself and those who are given to my care with my resources then God demands me to use everything I have in God’s service - not just a poriton or a tip.

Preacher,
I have the former tax partner at one of the biggest audit firms in America doing my taxes. I think I will take his advice over yours. 45% is the rate achievers will pay under Obama’s plan. 39.5 Fed and 6% State. Do the math. As I said, that doesn’t include sales tax, property tax , license plates fees, and other misc taxes. I will bet if people actually added up all the taxes they pay it would be close to 60%. Other than tax free munis (which will skyrocket under Obama making it harder for schools and municipalities to fund new projects) there really aren’t any “write-offs” of legend. When you hear Cindy McCain paid 26% on her $4 million in income, it was that because all her income was from capital gains and dividends, now taxed at 15%, not oridinary income. That will obviously go up, too under King Obama.

Pastor Scott, will you agree that Organized Religions have caused more premature death, and destruction than any other visible entity? In 2nd place are rats…long tailed kind.

If religions can’t find other religious to kill, they will kill people of different sects in their own religion. WHY? That has been going on for 2000 years, and has escalated the 20th century, and as of TODAY Killing is alive and well.

Religious people are killing each other on every continent. That is undeniable.

Pastor Scott, I know y9ur debating tenique as well…now I damand an anwer from you, “In which direction was your God travelling when he and his entourage stopped by to create the heavena and the Earth. Avoiding a question puts me in the position of moving in for the kill.

Can you answer that? “yes”? or “No”? If yes which direction were thay travelling?

jjk I am not making an endorsement. In fact today I am listening to both hopefuls give thier stump speeches and both are saying they won’t forget the plumber or any of the other ‘Joes’ out there. I am just glad that the topic is including equity for all.

Johnh you are very interesting but your comments seem way off the topic of this blog to me. Maybe you would be fun to play with some other time!

Pastor Scoot it appears to me that you have never read the Bible that you pontificate about, or you would know which direction God and his entourage were travelling.

I win round one.

Now, back to Joe the Plumber, I heard an interview with him on Radio. He is more astute than any of the aspirants for President.

He understands that a country cannot spend themselves into prosperity. He understands that Communism is not compatible with thinking from the past,

What do you like most about Obama’s proposal that we go from a Republic to full blown communist country in just 4 years. How will you benefit?

John, define your terms..

direction is relative. So, you can’t ask what direction God was travelling at the time of creation without specifying a reference point. The question is meaningless.

As far as your frequent comment about religion being the cause of more death and destruction than any other cause. In a sense you’re correct, I suppose. To me, however, that says more about the people involved than about anything else. People tend to cling to their ideas over most other things, and the desire to destroy those who you disagree with is the fundamental truth of humanity. I don’t like you, you’re different from me, so therefore I have the right to destroy you is pretty basic to human nature, is it not?

The fact that people in power have used twisted religious beliefs to destroy others is a fact of humanity. The important point there is that people in power ALWAYS twist the truth to maintain their power, and they use every tool at their disposal…and religion is usually the easiest.

YOU ARE RIGHT ON SCOTT!! Obama is a fool people,you’ll see,you’ll see but it will be too late.The Democrats hate to spend money so get ready he is gonna take your money!!

Clearly greed is not limited to Wall Street. Forget for the moment that Joe’s personal story is not true. Let’s take his predicament at face value.

Joe says he won’t buy this incredibly profitable small plumbing company because of potential tax increases. Let’s say the asking price for this company is around 2 million dollars, based on a quarter million in net profits, resulting in a nice 12.5% annual return on his investment. Since the credit markets are frozen, we will assume that Joe somehow has the two million to pay cash for the company. Joe’s not doing too badly himself.

But if he buys the company, grows it, and starts to clear over $250,000 in profits that go totally to him, he could have to pay 3 cents more in taxes on every additional dollar of profit. Now Joe could reduce his profits by hiring more employees, add health care, buy new equipment, expand a building, any number of things that would help the economy. But that’s of no concern to Joe, he just doesn’t want to lose 3 cents per dollar over the $250k he already has in his pocket. Three cents that the country will need to pay off debt, or rebuild the roads his trucks drive on. And therefore, poor Joe won’t buy the company.

Joe’s story makes a great case for what’s wrong with the trickle down, supply side mentality that he and his pals McCain and Gramm continue to support. Joe’s logic is a case of pure greed at the lowest levels.

Scott the Preacher: thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. And I agree that we should definitely be asking “What’s best for everyone?” and not just “What’s best for me?” However, I have no doubt that what’s best for everyone will not be coming out of Washington, no matter who’s in office. Given that the current economic struggles which you identify are largely a result of Washington’s bankrupt approach to finances, the answer surely cannot be to give Washington MORE of our money and MORE authority over our lives. Please tell me: who do you think knows what’s best for you, your family, and your community? Politicians in Washington or you, your family, and your community? If the latter, then why should we allow Washington to “spread the wealth around” by taking your money? Surely you could do a better job of that yourself!

Steve Holt,

Your comments are so accurate and truthful. It is very good thing to see.

Pastor Scott,

Your original post is both well written and thought provoking – but it’s also brave. If the Democratic party has a theme of Hope, the Republican party has settled on a theme of Anger.

The pundits on right wing radio are angry, the pundits on right wing TV are angry, the pundits on the right wing web are angry, the attendees at GOP rallies are angry – even the GOP nominee for President is filed with rage. He’s so mad he can barely suppress it. At the debates, every time he had to listen to the other side, his anger showed with his twisted smile or his glaring eyes.

In the face of this rage, you dared to question one of their core principles – their moral justification of Greed. Brave indeed. The GOP defend Greed with economic theory. Even now, standing in the ruins of our economy, the fruits of Greed laid bare for all to see, they defend it – and as many of these posts show, defend it with a fiery, righteous rage. Hopefully, underneath their angry, automatic defensiveness, you have provoked some thought.

To directly address the defenders of Greed: I find fault with their battle cries of “Redistribution!” and “Socialism!” They pretend that taxes exist solely to keep children from starving, or sick mothers from dying. Yes, some taxes are spent to help the less fortunate, but their primary function is to pay for the framework that maintains Civilization. From our military to the roads, from the electrical grid to the police – taxes pay for our civilization. And what a civilization it is - under our system a person can become fabulously wealthy. Is it really so bad to ask those who have benefited the most from this wonderful civilization to help pay for some of it?

The greedy talk of taking from the rich and giving to the poor – stealing from the productive to give to the lazy. I wonder if these people root for the Sheriff of Nottingham when they watch Robin Hood – aka the greedy Socialist who corrupted civilization by feeding the starving peasants who were shirking their rightful taxes (which, of course, are only paid by the poor). Our tax system is slowly turning into something reminiscent of that story – the rich have received repeated tax cuts, while the poor and middle class are increasingly carrying the burden of paying for our civilization. But, this system doesn’t work well – it’s hard to have the poor and middle class pay for everything - so we have gone into debt just to keep the lights of civilization on. The time is rapidly coming when we will not be able to borrow - we will have to start paying our way. Unfortunately, the burden of paying our colossal debt (while keeping basic services) will probably fall to the ones with the most money – after all, it’s difficult to get water from a stone (or taxes from the unemployed).

The defenders of Greed claim that taxing the wealthy will crush the economy – but here too, I believe they are wrong. An economy is build on spending. If no one is buying anything, the economy crashes. Over the past decade or so, the real income of the poor and middle class has actually decreased. At the same time, the cost of basic goods have increased (gas, food, housing, etc). To compensate for their falling income, and increasing expenses, the poor and middle class have taken a page from the government – they borrowed. Going into debt to keep food on the table and a roof over their head worked for a while, but now the credit market has collapsed. The banks are barely lending to each other, much less a man with a job that may be outsourced at any moment. The result? Consumer spending (and the economy) have flat lined. Giving the rich another tax cut will not restart consumer spending – but giving the poor and middle class a tax cut will.

Increasing the money in the pocket of the main street workers will allow them to keep spending – and thereby keep the economy moving. Of course, this is a short term fix. In the long term, we need to focus on creating jobs here in America – good paying jobs. We can do this by giving companies that create jobs here a tax break – and increasing the taxes on companies that outsource. We can encourage our military to buy from American sources, not French ones. We can make sure that goods imported into our country are taxed at the same rate as goods sent out of our country – instead of forcing the American worker to compete with government subsidized sweat shops in foreign lands.

All of these policies are aimed at one thing, increasing the income of the poor and the middle class. Because if the majority of our nation have money to spend, we can be assured that our economy will move along briskly. After all, you can’t sell things if no one has the money to buy them.

So where does this leave the rich who may have to pay a slightly higher tax rate? Rich. It may take them longer to get there, but if they work hard enough, get lucky enough, and keep at it, they too can become a billionaire. That’s the beauty of America – you Can make it – and you can make it without climbing on the backs of your fellow Americans.

It is nice hearing from someone with an eternal perspective of life and things in relationship to this world.

Welcome Pastor Lohse.

I’m really unsure where the 40% of people are who don’t pay any taxes. Do we have that many people laboring for under $6,000 or whatever the standard personal exemption is per year? For shame.

I’ve *always* paid taxes. I paid taxes when I was 5 years old and bought 30 cents worth of gum balls. Everyone who goes to the grocery store, who buys a tank of gas, or a suit of clothes, who is in the economy at all pays taxes. People using food stamps pay taxes on their groceries. “Tax refunds” are what we get back as an overage of what the government has collected in error.

While we need money as an exchange medium, and I think people should benefit from the fruits of their labor, I agree with Anonoman that our current system isn’t just reasonable capitalism, but is based on greed. Did medical expenses increase at astronomical rates when hospitals were non-profits, and doctors had paying customers, but would also work for in-kind trades? The whole “health care crisis” is predicated as much on greed acting on people in their time of need as it is legitimate R&D and care costs. One need go no further than the fact that a Medicare senior can get a procedure for a vastly reduced rate than a 35 year old with no medical insurance paying out of pocket.

The whole mortgage fiasco which started this panic (and yes, it is a panic) isn’t based on the proper functioning of a financial system, with due profits paid, but on something which used to be illegal– usury or inordinate profit taken for money lending. At least in my church, the sermon this Sunday is going to be the “render to Caesar” sermon… which is a close second, in my book, to the one where the moneylenders got thrown out of the temple. Isn’t the moneylender parable one which has sharp relevance today? “Neither a borrower nor a lender, be.”

No one here, and none of the candidates, are advocating a moneyless society, or a communist utopia. However, one of the sayings out of the 60s I still live by: When the last tree has fallen, when the last river is spoiled, when the last bird dies, only then will people realize they cannot eat money.

“The love of money is the root of all evil.” Not money. So why do all these people love it so much?

Teresa, if the love of money is the root of all evil, those that have it can buy the kind of evil they like best. And, *If money causes evil, why Take it from the rich and give it to the poor, and make them evil?.

Does that make common sense?

HS, You and I have gone through this before, Anyone who has studied the Bible should know which direction your God was travelling. I’ll some choices you have. South, East, North, West, South West, South East, North East, North West. There are more directions, like Up and Down, Any9ne who has even read the Bible should know that.

At least you didn’t tell me God has always been here. LOL,

Now, which direction was he travelling? Ask Pastor Scott to Tell you, he can’t. If one is to pontiificate, they should know what that are pontificating about!

Where is John Galt?

proff– the correct quote is “Who is John Galt?” not Where.

McCain is no Midas Mulligan, nor is Obama Mr. Thompson or Wesley Mouch. Joe the Plumber might make a good Jim Taggart, though.
Sincerely, Dagny Taggart

johnh,

God is omnipresent (everywhere).

Well, there is no way to prove that God exists to you that would convince you and many others. We only have the evidence of His existence rather than proof. The evidence gives us confidence that God exists and is the sort of being that the Bible describes.

In spiritual terms the word “direction” refers spiritual direction and is a way to cooperate with God’s mission. The word “direction” does not mean that I give you directions or orders. Instead it means that you and I join together in looking for the direction (or mission) that God is birthing in you and around you.

Now johnh, would you care to explain to us and point out to us in the Bible that you claim is there and that anyone who read it should know and frankly, that I too have missed concerning this direction thing you are talking about that God was traveling?

By the way, since you claim to be such great friends of Sarah and Todd Palin who proclaim to be devout Christians, what have they explained to you about God and Christ and their existence?

Also from your study of the Bible, do you remember what God’s inspired words describe as a FOOL?

Exodus 3:8 tells the story of God’s first encounter with Moses which is the impetus for the creation of a people of God. It says that God tells Moses to let the people know that God has seen, and heard and known their suffering and has come down to deliver them. I don’t know if that answers the atheist’s question but I don’t really care. I cannot be goaded into treating the scriptures like they are a superstitious trivia book. The Bible is a book of faith set in the context of human history. It was written by believers about their encounters with the living God. The Bible invites inquirers into this wonderful ancient dialogue about how people like us have lived the life of faith in the past so that we can have guidance for living it now and in the future. Thomas Merton said that enlightenment happens by acting upon faith and then seeing. One does not see and then act faith. Those who choose to see before they will trust in God never begin the journey.

This discussion about tax policy has been a wonderful and lively conversation. I have a new post planned for Monday morning. I hope most of you will come along.

I feel for those people who genuinely require government assistance. However, the small business owner next to my business is unable to hire people to work for him at a rate of $12.50 per hours. Therefore, he must import labor from Mexico.
When we provide housing, food stamps, and financial assistance to the tune of enough to live on and buy 24 ounce beers, why work.

Additionally, I suggest that anyone who receives any type of government financial assistance be required to be subjected to random drug tests.

What is best for me, and what is best for everyone, are not mutally exclusive in Christianity. By shifting my view of the world I can satisfy both questions with the same answer.

I do not believe that a budget can balanced, especially in only one four year term, without taxation. Who remembers, “Read my lips?” Do you really think that a spending freeze and the now famous pork barrell slashing pen that McCain waves around are going to be enough to bring a deficit of TRILLIONS under control? I remember the idiotic claim that ketchup was a vegetable. I also remember that so many deductions were stealthed away by Reagan and the current Bush that people cannot afford their health care, medications, or to get their kids through college. I believe the claim that McCain would ravage Medicare, attempt to privatize Social Security, and tax benefits never before taxed. My health insurance benefit is worth $16,000 annually what good is his $5,000 tip going to do me?