As much as I would like to see and urban growth boundary, I know all it will serve to do is cause increased housing prices and cause people to move to areas outside the UGB to find housing. The problem with this situation is that the St. Louis area has no functional regional government - there can be no coordinated planning because of this. Also, because the metro area is across two states, it would require Illinois to have a role as well, which they’re incapable of doing.

The only way to functionally do it is to require developers to pay for the full cost of their development - including all forms of infrastructure (schools, roads, transit, sewerage, etc). Only then will people pay the full cost of their housing, and people can make informed decisions about their housing.

People will continue to move to where the costs of housing fits into their budget. I bought my house for $145k 6 years ago in LSL but it would have cost me $300k if I would have bought the same house on the other side of the Missouri River. In retrospect, I would have done the exact same thing if I had to go back and do it over. I have a job in Chesterfield so the drive isn’t bad and I won’t have to deal with that hell which will be the hwy 64 overhaul. I also have my little slice of heaven in the form of a dozen acres far enough out west that I won’t have to worry too much about the expansion yet if I should decide to sell it, it’s close enough that it will be in demand enough to make me some nice cash.

People want to keep moving further west - look at what St. Peters was like in the 80’s. Then O’Fallon. Now, Wentzville. The population keeps growing, and people will need somewhere to move in order to maintain the suburban lifestyle so many desire. There just needs to be more regulation in Troy and Lincoln County in the form of zoning and planning.

I don’t see how you can establish a practical boundary. I think people just have to weigh the cost of gas and their drive time if they have to commute into the city to work. If it is worth it to them personally to save a few grand on a cheap house, they will do it.

I always considered the river the boundary, but we are way past that now. You can’t make people live in St. Louis city or County. It would be nice if more people embraced an urban lifestyle. Maybe if the conditions improve in the City more will consider living there.

Some people just like living far away from the urban center. You can’t change that.

As if you could stop it?
What an inane question. Is Rob Smyth running the show today?

westward expansion has been going on for two centuries

Dan (above) is absolutely right that we need a functional regional government to plan for orderly, carefully-planned growth. Although the voters of the area are not likely to be in favor of this idea, now would seem to be a perfect time to raise the issue - perhaps the inconvenience of the 64/40 project will make people think critically about the length of their commute and what traffic will be like when more people move west. Perhaps the state line will serve as a psychological barrier (maybe long-time Missourians will want to stay in their state) that could make a Missouri side regional government possible.

The problem with this (and all) suburban expansion is that while it may be cheaper for an individual homeowner to purchase land a great distance from job centers, society bears the burden of the externalities created. You may have your “slice of heaven” but you just fed the demand for expensive infrastructure and vastly increased the amount of resources you consume, not to mention developed previously open space. Dan’s idea requiring developers to pay for infrastructure would be a huge help.

Although we can’t change this on a local level, the gas we use and the roads we drive on are heavily subsidized, so while it may seem like a good economic decision to move where land is cheaper, people aren’t making the decision with the right numbers. Area residents often complain that public transit is inadequate and infrequent, but by creating a low density sprawl environment, any possibility of a viable public transit system is dashed from the beginning. (As I stated above, roads don’t pay for themselves, either.) The longer we wait to address this, the worse it will become.

That being said, affordable housing is a problem. Sprawling suburban development isn’t the answer - there are other tactics that can be used.

Yes, clearly a giant concrete wall should be built, and to the west of it, none shall be allowed to pass.
Then we can start forcing people to move back into the city, preferably in neighborhoods where tons of traffic where will be cutting through and sitting bumper to bumper every day because of highway 40 being shut down for the next decade or so, and where they will have to have their children go through the lovely public school system.

So the same combination of city and county governments that can’t agree on such silly things as bridges, sensible interstate highway improvements, and public transport expansion is going to get together and set clear standards for, well, anything? Ha! You’ve got to be kidding.

Besides, why should we set a boundary? If someone really wants to live in Wentzville and work Downtown, that’s their prerogative. In theory at least, there’s a point at which expansion ceases to be practical, and we’re a lot more likely to see people find that point themselves than we are to see the regional governments come to anything even vaguely resembling a practical consensus.

This question, which is utterly ridiculous, is highly revealing. It’s nobody’s darn business whether development “should” occur.

Last time I checked, property owners still had the right to improve their property as they choose and to sell it to whom they choose. While there are certain limits (for example, one can not create a toxic waste site without regulatory oversight and approval), the idea that some sort of “development czar” should be empowered to decide where people will be allowed to live would be more at home in the former Soviet Union than in the United States.

When people choose to leave a community to live elsewhere, perhaps the community they are leaving should examine why.
– Are taxes too high?
– Are “services” provided by government inadequate or poorly delivered and managed?
– Are the schools below par?
– Is crime unacceptably high?
– Is the government unresponsive or even corrupt?
If any of the above are accurate (and, in the case of the City of St. Louis, all of them are), the anser is not to force people to live there, it is to fix the problems.

In this nation, and in this area, we are blessed with an abundance of open land. People should be free to choose to live where they want, not where some “authority” would force them to.

Here’s an interesting point: if (and that’s a big question) ethanol and soy bio-diesel continue to develop and grow as a market, at what point does agricultural use become lucrative enough that farmers on the fringes stop selling their land to developers? We’re obviously not there yet, but what if corn/soybeans go to $10 a bushel? $20 a bushel?

Just something to think about.

Functional regional government. Talk about an oxymoron.

Who do you think would head the regional government? Who would heavily influence it? In all likelihodd, the same politicians who have so grossly mismanged the communities from which people are moving as they head west.

Why on earth would we even consider giving further power to those who have already proven themselves unworthy of it?

Big government is just as bad an idea at the local level as it is at the naitonal level.

What a dumb question!! Why don’t we just go ahead and say we are communist and our government won’t let us out of the area that they want us to live in. Freedom is what it is. You have the right to go where you want. I grew up in St. Louis Co. There is no way that I would stay there. You can’t even go back into the neighborhood that I was raised in without getting mugged. I went out west as far as thought was reasonable for me. I’m glad I did.

God! There are so many “if, ands, & buts” on this one, it’s hard to know where to start. Personally, as much as I’d love to live in “the country,” I couldn’t deal with the commute. Even more importantly, though, is that once an area starts booming, it doesn’t stay country for very long. Like when I was a kid. My parents bought a home in north St Louis county. There were farms and woods and fields. You could hear roosters crowing, cows mooing and horses neighing–all from your backdoor. In ten years, it was all gone. All developed. No more farms. No more woods. No more fields. Now we had gas stations and fast food places and strip malls. So much for country living. The same thing happened to St Charles, St Peters, O’Fallon. Wentzville will be no exception. It’s sad but I don’t see how you can stop it. Maybe if the TIF game would make more land available for affordable housing rather than more strip malls we could re-develop existing suburbs. (The emphasis is on “affordable” — not more McMansions.) After all, the infrastructure is already there–the roads, the utilities, the schools, the conveniences. It would make so much sense. I’m not holding my breath.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE more development…so you losers can drive, drive, drive those SUVs more and increase as much carbon emissions as soon as is humanely possible to please your Republican Lord God Bush.

Public transportation….ha, who, I ask WHO needs it?

Why try to do something for the enviroment, when it’s easier to destroy it. Oh, you wacky St. Losers.

#10 wrote: “In this nation, and in this area, we are blessed with an abundance of open land.”

Yes, but for how much longer will we have an abundance of open land?

I live in the City and work downtown, but I still love to escape to the country. If I could, I would chip in money to preserve green space… say, just the other side of the Merrimec. There used to be rail lines that would take people from the City to country resorts in Valley Park and Times Beach. I wish there was something like that nowadays.

I support the rights of property owners. Instead of the government saying, “No you can’t build or sell to a developer,” they should have another choice. A public-private green-space preserving trust organization could offer to buy the land, or buy development rights from property owners. A way to justify their funding could be through air pollution credits.

These are ideas aren’t far-fetched. They are being tried out in Chicago (carbon pollution credit exchange) and Traverse City, MI (development rights over cherry orchards).

Finally, a good public policy question!

Sprawl is/should be a serious concern for our state. Projections from St. Louis University show that, if we continue to grow at this rate, the entire state will look like St. Louis County in 40 years. If that doesn’t concern you, just consider the incredible rise in taxes that will be needed to finance the infrastructure for this expansion (sewers, roads, electric lines, etc.). I always hate the fact that my tax money gets thrown away to pay for cheap subdivisions in rural areas. The fact that it screws farmers makes it even worse.

There are good examples of effective regional government (Portland’s Metro, Indianapolis’ Unigov, etc.), but I still doubt its a viable option here. Missourians hate government of any kind, even when its in their best interests.

This topic hits a real nerve with me. As far a limiting expansion that is a stupid question and would be impossible to enforce and should not even be attempted by our govt.. I hear all the politicly correct comments on why people move west. I have been hearing them for over 20 years as I live in north county. Please make no mistake about it, people have been moving west for generations because white people do not want to live with black people, some of the reasons are warranted and others not. I can hear people arleady calling me a racist and all that, but I still live in north county and I bet they don’t. I feel the reason for this is simple, white people look at old st. louis neighborhoods like the north city that where once very nice communities and now have turned into a war zone and there are so many areas around st. louis just like that, and with that track record once a few blacks move into a area, the whites start clearing out. I don’t think that is fair to black people either as most leave the high crime neighborhoods to raise their kids in a safe place and who can blame them, but the harsh reality is white people start thinking “there goes the neighborhood” and start moving out. Another issue I have with the westward expansion is the size of some of the houses being built is insane. Why do people need a 3000+ square foot house when most of the time there are 4 or less people living there. I can tell you this if I could afford that big of a house it would not be in a subdivision with neighbors black or white, that’s just stupid. The only way the expansion will slow is if the economy collapses and all the notes on the over borrowed people come due and these people might end up living with mom & dad back in the hood. I have seen some of this aleady. In the mean time enjoy the gas prices, I will stay where I am at in my paid for north county home.

7dez is right on. The decision as to how far out to live involves well-known trade-offs that only those making the decision can and should weigh. There is and should be no artificial, government-sponsored means of “regulating” where people want to live. It is a matter of personal preferences and - again - tradeoffs.

I tend to snicker when I hear people who live in O’Fallon complain about the $75 it costs to fill their SUVs, but that, as the great Blues master Taj Mahal put it succinctly so many years ago, “…ain’t nobody’s business but yo’ own….” Best we can do for the environment’s sake is tax energy consumption and luxury vehicles (anything above 4 cylinders) to discourage the Hummer buyers of the world, if that is possible. In the meantime, if people want to blow their paychecks on gas driving an 80-mile round trip commute - with one person in their Ford Explorers, let ‘em have at it. But I will continue to laugh at them when I see them at the gas pump beside me looking like somebody just relieved themselves on their prize azaleas.

Ryan #16,

We already have some of the elements that you mention. Great Rivers Greenway, for example, is a regional special district dedicated to creating/preserving parks and trails. Other land trust organizations - the Trust for Public Lands, Nature Conservancy, or the local St. Louis Open Space council - are working to acquire land and maintain the natural landscape. Without a concentrated and coordinated effort at managing growth, however, it is at best a stopgap measure.

Is Missouri utterly incapable of responsible growth? Let’s hope not. Among good first steps are 1) setting up public/private partnerships to provide for considerable conservation easements to protect significant land and allow people like Art Muensterman to continue farming and 2) provide design charettes, etc. for the people of the area to have a stake in how their communities look and grow.

Boyd #19,

Government is already involved in encouraging growth to rural areas. Didn’t you get the point in the article about the county executive encouraging expasion? Who do you think pays for the expanding infrastructure? Better hold on to your wallet.

PLEASE>>>>NO more poor farmer stories either. These people are laughing all the way to the bank..

What exactly is “affordable housing”? Seems to me that any housing, from studio apartments to lofts, or small ranch homes to the dreaded “McMansion” are either affordable or not. If you are going to take land off the market through mandated planning schemes, then the land that is still on the market is going to go up in price — and so will the housing that is built on that more expensive land. It never ceases to amaze me how people who’ve benefitted from previous community expansions piously criticize those taking advantage of new growth.

#24 - What is “affordable housing?” No more than three bedrooms max. No more than one and a half baths…you know, the kind of houses that used to be called “starter homes.” You know, the kind that nobody builds anymore. Sure. I realize that the land has appreciated in value–maybe. Depending on your area. I don’t expect a starter home to cost what it did in my parents’ day ($10,000) but it doesn’t have to be well over $150,000 either. And some of us are still living in the inner ring of suburbs in St Louis county–you know, the areas that so many people wouldn’t be caught dead in. So if we’re taking advantage or previous “urban sprawl” it is very old urban sprawl.

The government decides for us what we can and can’t eat. The government decides that people should not be allowed to make their own decisions on what medical treatments are best for them. The government decides that people who own their own private business’ can not decide what is allowed in their own private establishment. The governemt decides to take money from people who work for it and give it to lazy people who will not work for it. I see no reason why anyone should be offended if the government starts telling them where they can and can’t live.

take a deep breath,

good points in your #16 post. there is some good work being done but outside protecting key areas such as in the confluence area it is so difficult here in Missouri.

Ultimately, it will have to be the people of Lincoln County who will have to determine whether or not they want to preserve a decent amount of their rural heritage or whether or not they want to be a cookie-cutter crap-fest that allows anything-goes development.

A constructive comparison is to look at the good folks of Edwardsville-Glen Carbon, whose I-55 Corridor Plan recognizes that sustainable development for this growing area will depend upon protecting significant open space and implementing design standards.

Why not! Maybe somebody will build some roads. The jobs will go, too. Infrastructure, who needs that? They can all jump into the SUV and peddle the 60 miles, at $4.00 a gallon.

I almost forgot… The government also decides for you what home family enterntainment you are not allowed to buy. BRING BACK JARTS!!!!

My neighborhood in O’Fallon is built on an old Farm. My houses in Chicago and Memphis were built on old farm land. As a child, I used a toy metal detector to locate and dig up old farm implements from my yard. Even my wife’s childhood home in Massachusetts is on “Farm Street” because it was built on an old farm. Farmland has been used for homes since this country started, and that trend isn’t going to stop.

Developing rural areas doesn’t have to be bad. O’Fallon now gets voted as one of the top places in the country to live. That’s not an accident, it’s the result of shrewd zoning regulations, careful infrastructure choices, and sound tax policies. Lincoln county should study how other successful growth has been achieved and copy those policies. Good decisions early can secure the area’s future. But if they don’t step up fast, the builders will “develop them into a corner”. Few things can hold an area back worse than poor planning and haphazard early development.

In response to #18:

North City (and parts of north county, and elsewhere) became the way they were NOT because of blacks moving in. That is an incredibly racist thing to say. when blacks first moved in the neighborhoods were stable, and so were the new residents. What happened is that: 1) middle class whites (and later middle class blacks) moved OUT as soon as the black families moved in, aided and abetted by panic peddling and redlining; 2) redlining was also practiced by the FHA, and the U.S. government, who had a policy for years (and some conservatives still do) of declaring urban centers as ‘blighted’ regardless of the truth; highways destroyed neighborhoods and isolated others; (witness Laclede’s Landing and McRee Town).

Much of these anti-urban policies have been undone over the last two decades, but there are still anti-urban forces out there. Witness the constant attempts to ‘limit’ transportation funding (yet highways and roads get a pass), because it is ‘inefficient’. Maybe we don’t need to have growth controls, but at least give the cities a fair shot to compete. Don’t subsidize exurban sprawl and then say that ‘cities are dead’.

It’s not a matter if it should, IT WILL! We will be butt to butt in a few decades, if it takes that long. We still have people proud that they are cranking out ten kids in a family. That, plus immigration and illegals makes it a sure thing. I only wonder what those who prefer totally white faces around them are gonna do. We will no longer have enough land to grow our own food and will rely on imports. I’m glad I am old enough not to see all that because we can’t get along now. Just my luck, I’d be surrounded by redneck hooders who vote repub and worship useless jocks!

re (5) “What an inane question. Is Rob Smyth running the show today?”

King Arthur: Look, you stupid bastard. You’ve got no arms left!
Black Knight: Yes I have.
King Arthur: LOOK!
Black Knight: It’s just a flesh wound.

By all means let development continue wherever there’s demand for it. But don’t subsidize all of it. The costs of infrastructure needed for new development should be paid for (primarily) by those pushing for the new development. These costs need to be factored into shiny new homes in shiny new suburbs. People shouldn’t be able to push costs onto society for new infrastructure simply because they “want” to live in a new area.

Should expansion halt until the county can get their act together? Probably.

Will it happen? No way.

But in my opinion, anyone who moves any further west than Wentzville deserves to spend the hours and hours stuck in traffic on underdeveloped I-70, that they will certainly be doomed to. If people were smarter, they might look to move to IL towns of O’fallon, Shiloh or the like. Illinois has improved I-64 to 4 lanes each way, east of I-255, and the commute to downtown is not as bad as you might think.

I’d move to Illinois before I ever considered moving anywhere along I-70. Unless they build another highway to relieve the building pressure from all this expansion, everyone along its path will be doomed to more hours stuck in traffic. And in case you haven’t noticed, there are no projects underway to widen 70.

So all you suckers, go ahead and move further west. I just hope you don’t work in St. Louis City/County.

There shouldn’t be any laws stopping urban sprawl, but I agree the developers should pay for the infrostruture.

As for affordable housing in St. Louis County, I bought my five bedroom, 2 bath house in Ferguson for $99,000 five years ago. Sure, it’s not that big (the rooms are small) and it’s a post WWII home, but it’s a nice neighborhood.

I also wanted to add that what if the jobs continue to move west, too? How many people actually work downtown now? There are plenty of jobs in West County and Earth City and O’Fallon. So, living out west could mean a shorter commute.

Boyd #19 said;

“if people want to blow their paychecks on gas driving an 80-mile round trip commute - with one person in their Ford Explorers, let “em have at it”

The problem, as I see it, is these people see no problem spending their money on an 80 mile drive but they will be the same ones who will flood the government (you and I) in later years saying they have nothing and want the govt to bail them out. Essentially saying “I’ve lived beyond my means and now you people must bail me out”

The best line in that article was the one about the lady who thinks NOTHING of the 130 mile commute she makes every day. OMG, I hope this lady is not one of the “gas is too high” people because in my opinion she’s using more than her share. No mention however of her vehicle.

Do I care if people want to piss away their time and money driving and sitting in traffic? No, just don’t come to me in later years asking for a handout because you were too stupid to see the amount of money you were wasting.

BTW, lower taxes out there will exist only in the short term. The number of people moving there will quickly burden the system requiring an INCREASE in almost every tax. Including the creation of new ones. Good luck people. You are going to need it.

Who cares? Just don’t ask me to pay for the infrastructure out to the middle of undeveloped nowhere for people who are afraid of living near anyone who is not white. Why not just erect a sealed bubble and live inside for the rest of your life.

Westward development should be allowed to continue as long as it would have occurred there anyway without any government interference like grants and tax subsidies. If this economy was a use it, you pay for it economy, don’t use it, don’t pay for it, then I believe few would live further out.

If I had to pay a road tax based on every mile I drive and my car’s weight, I probably would not want to live 50 miles from work. But since I am not taxed in proportion to usage, then it’s okay. Pay for usage is the best and most efficient way possible to ensure equality.

The main reason why many people do not live in Illinois is when they see their real estate taxes compared to living in Missouri. Illinois real estate taxes are massive in comparison and I would venture to say 60 to 90% more than a comparable property assessed value in MO. Many people are beginning to look at their all-in costs before moving into a certain area.

We get what we deserve. St Louis has been investigating and paying consultants to study the down town areas of many urban centers who have limited sprawl by making their downtown’s more attractive yet none have been implemented + our riverfront and other areas remain underdeveloped and less desireable. Even the proposed ballpark village does not include diverse housing options. The problem with living in the city is NOT just the poor schools. Second, wasn’t St. Charles County allowed to vote no on having metrolink extend into their midst even as taxes from the entire area built a third then fourth bridge over the Missouri? Who is approving and paying for these bridges. As I look at our area, I can’t help but think of all the large metro areas that have refused to sponsor sprawl by limiting bridgework. How come San Fran can hold it to just the Golden gate into Marin County and NYCity has not turned the river into new jersey into a road deck by adding more and more bridges yet St. Louis keeps having to have more in every direction? Whose guidance are we following?

Moving west toward Lincoln County is a great idea.It’s still very country out there.What a great place to raise a family,as long as they build Catholic Schools there.Anywhere is better then St.Louis city or county.Go West!!It’s so beautiful out west,not too crowded and no crime.

Cindy Darling I detect hatred in your comment.Settle down darling.You must be a democrat due to all the anger you carry around and the hate.Go Republican you’ll live a life of complete calm……..or stay a democrat and eventually we’ll all get beheaded and you won’t have to get all fired up again.

Dan S #40,

“If I had to pay a road tax based on every mile I drive and my car’s weight,”

You already do. State and federal taxes on gasoline total 44.5 cents per gallon. The more you drive, and the less fuel-efficient the vehicle you drive, the more gallons of fuel you use, and the more you pay in tax.

AJ wrote:

The best line in that article was the one about the lady who thinks NOTHING of the 130 mile commute she makes every day.

I did a little back of the envelope math on that. That’s 2600 miles a month driving to and from work. The IRS’ standard mileage reimbursement rate for 2007 is 48.5 cents per mile, and is an estimate of the fixed and variable costs of driving (fuel, wear and tear, etc).

2600 miles @ $.485/mile is $1,261 a month (versus $97, say, for someone who lives 5 miles from work). At 6.25% on a 30 year mortgage, $1,261 a month is worth $200,000.

If you want to move way out, that’s your prerogative, just don’t complain about the cost of your commute.

BTW, lower taxes out there will exist only in the short term. The number of people moving there will quickly burden the system requiring an INCREASE in almost every tax. Including the creation of new ones. Good luck people. You are going to need it.

Exactly. The article in question has discussed the already overcrowded schools. What about things like the fire district, which until now would never have had to worry about all these new residents and their houses? Or the code enforcement inspectors who go through all the new development? Everyone’s going to have to pay their fair share of that, and the “low tax” advantage will evaporate.

I’m less concerned about what happens to those who are chasing the temporary “low taxes” out in exurbia and more concerned about the impact of those moves on my own pocketbook. Not only do we subsidize rural development by channeling tax dollars toward new roads, bridges, etc. and in rising electric, gas, and sewer rates; but my taxes will eventually rise to cover the costs of expansion (and disinvestment).

People can move as far west as they want. But “Joe the Farmer” shouldn’t suffer because people living in brand spanking new subdivisions don’t want to smell manure. If you want to live in the country you should have to take in all that entails, including the odor(s).

AJ #45

St Charles County has grown rapidly for what, 30 years now? That should be long enough for the tax increases you forecast to happen.

So where are taxes lowest?

St Charles County
St Louis County
St Louis City

Taxes are lowest in St Charles County, and not by a small margin.

Just drop a quick one, lots of good points today.

here is a curve ball. A lot of corporations are locating outside st. louis city limits (wow, imagine that!) By locating outside the city they get… an immediate reduction in taxes by 1%
lots of land to spread out on that doesn’t require a barbed wire fence.
employees that don’t have to drive far.
a local municipality that is much easier to work with than the tangled web of democratic and union controled politics that is the dysfunctional st. louis city.

Anyway, more and more of these companies will move out of the city, making us ignorant SUV driving, racist bigots much happier.

here is a quick list of great places to work outside of the city.

edward jones
express scripts
mastercard
monsanto
smurfit-stone
reuters

the list goes on and on, there will only be more in the future. So are these companies contributing to the urban sprawl? are they racist too? are they laying a heavy burden on small towns? or do they appreciate good roads, educated local workforce, relatively low crime rate?

bye

It took until the 18th post until the “race card” was played.

For those of you with “racial Tourettes” that believe as if there would be no suburbs were it not for white people fleeing integrating neighborhoods, have you noticed how many African-Americans live in St. Louis County? And how many live in St. Charles County? Do you believe they all came from outside the St. Louis metropolitan area?

Let’s get real. Many of the African-Americans that live in St. Louis County and St. Charles County moved for the same reasons as did their white neighbors. For them, the City of St. Louis, and certain communities in St. Louis County, were not good places to live. When they had the economic means to leave, they did.

Until the City and its supporters stop blaming the people who leave and start correcting what causes them to leave, the City will continue to have trouble keeping residents.

You mean stop blaming white people for all the world’s problems and try to correct things that are broken instead of just pointing fingers??!!! I don’t know what city you live in, but here in st. louis city, we take no blame for anything.

When the report came out that we were the most dangerous city, what did we do? did we begin to take not that our city needs help? did the politicians begin programs with the police (I think they did actually, a couple months later)? Did the Revs take a bread from chastising percieved racists and try to rebuild the inner city communities?

Well what did happen was that the mayor got on the horn and began denying it, areguing about the statistics, areguing about city limits and what was or wasn’t included. Nobody likes the blame. Of course, if you just blame generically “white people” then there is no one to defend against it (and if they did, i’m sure jesse and al would be here to extort them for apology money).

This city needs help, and the first step is acceptance.

Ummmm…. Lincoln County is NORTH of St. Louis, folks….

Dez - 48…The taxes are even lower out in Dent county so why not move to Salem…Just remember, you generally get what you pay for. There are many reasons to move way out and the main reason is not racial at all, it is that people can’t afford to live in a desirable part of the county like Kirkwood, Webster, or Clayton. People should be able to choose where they want to live, just don’t act like the entire county and city are somehow doomed. There isn’t much ‘blight’ in the central corridor.

People originally moved West because of the wagon masters claims of “Westward ho the wagons. They all went West and there was hardly any at all so they sent for some. It explains California. Here in Eastern Missouri, white people moved out of St Louis because they didn’t like bussing. When bussing stopped, they were already in St. Charles county and they saw more black people moving into East St. Charles county so they moved further West. Now there’s more blacks moving West so the Whites are moving into the next county or flipping back to St. Louis and going in the rehab business. It’ll all end when blacks move into Jonesberg or we run out of SUV gas. Be cheaper if they just forgot the whole thing and shared their BBQ’s and learned how to run correctly with their pants crotch at knee level.

Ted #53,

My comment #48 was responding to AJ’s assertion that taxes would inevitably increase in the outlying counties until they were no lower than those of the inner ones. St. Charles County after 30 years of rapid growth refutes that claim, as it still has lower taxes than St. Louis City or County.

I agree people should be able to choose where they live. That idea doesnt; appear to be popular in this forum. It certainly isn’t with the political elites of St. Louis City and County that need taxpayer dollars to finance their power and perks.

7dez7:

I agree that people should be free to choose where they live and government should not control where they live. Unfortunately, that is not currently the case. Urban sprawl has been primarily the result of government incentives (subsidies to developers, tax breaks to corporations, tax money devoted to expanding infrastructure, etc.) that distort people’s preferences. Perhaps that would be fine, perhaps, if it were not for the harmful consequences (which are extensive and I don’t have space to discuss them all).

Your comment about low taxes in St. Charles is quite right, but is incomplete. Though St. Charles has been urbanizing for some time, its most significant growth has occurred in the past decade. St. Charles won’t start feeling the effects of sprawl until its surrounding counties begin a similar growth pattern. St. Louis City and County residents have been subsidizing your low taxes for some time (MSD, Ameren, and other utility rates have increased because of the expansion to St. Charles, as well as road, bridge and highway construction) and soon St. Charles will begin subsidizing it’s own sprawling counties.

Those that want to keep running away can keep going as far as I’m concerned. Some day they’ll be in Kansas, and that’ll be their punishment.

Just one thing to keep in mind: in the 1950’s when people first started leaving the City (actually they left in the 30’s, but the war stopped that for a while), the St. Louis Public Schools were as good as anything you could find.

It’s not about the schools; the schools are an excuse for whatever other reasons people have for leaving. If enough city residents banded together, they could force the SLPS to change.