Perhaps I’m missing something, but based on the article and KIPP’s website, I don’t see a downside. St. Louis gets free, high quality schools that are overseen by a university. 1,500 students get a great education and a real leg up in life. Sounds good to me.

KIPP, welcome to St. Louis!

What’s not to like about this program? Great opportunity for 1500 pupils to become actual students. (A former teacher, a Holy Cross priest, used to differentiate between a “pupil” vs a “student”. A “pupil”, he said, occupied a desk, while a “student” was an attentive and active classroom participant.) Thanks to Wash U for taking the initiative. Can we look to SLU and Harris-Stowe, Fontbonne and Webster to follow?

Sounds great! Too bad I don’t have any kids, nor do I plan to have any either.

Too bad Edwards quit too….he couldn’t have won anyway. Think he’ll run as Veep with Obama?

#3: Robsmyth. Edwards probably wouldn’t be a bad choice, but I wonder if the Governor of Kansas, Kathleen Sebieius, might not be a more magical VP-mate for Obama?

Where do charter schools fit into the constellation of education? Is it easier to initiate a new system than fixing the public school system? Would adopting a “charter school system” doom our public school system to failure and abandonment?

It would seem that a “new and improved” set of schools would draw the best and the brightest, and leave the rest in squalor. Who would choose to give their children an inferior education?

I hope to send my children to a parochial school, but I’m still concerned about the fate of the public school system as a resident of the City of St. Louis.

Hi, I’m a public school advocate and blogger in San Francisco who has followed KIPP schools closely with a skeptical eye.

Here’s a blog post giving some information about KIPP schools, addressing their sky-high attrition and other issues.

http://www.sfschools.org/2007/02/where-have-all-kippsters-gone.html

When I think of charter schools, I think of the charter school official woman who got one of my email addresses, and thinking I was a pal, proceeded talking about an intestinal problem she had on a plane on the way to a school conference. It was quite funny the detail she went into. Then a bit later one of the heads of regional charter schools used that same address to send emails to all the members about some nasty infighting issue. It was so petty what they were arguing about and this went on for weeks. Like 12 year olds. Finally I sent him a nice note telling him I wasn’t who he thought I was, but by then, I had all kinds of inside info about their group. He was appropriately snitty like one of the worst teachers I ever knew. I picture him as a physically small, nerdy man working with as many women as he was raised with. Frustrations still in place. LOL
Folks need educational choices, but I would hate to see the public school system ignored. And once the university system takes control, will money be more important than educational issues like it is in most university systems today? They accept more money from special interests now, and have no problem with dumbing down classes to attract more students. Parents sure have more things to think about now. Anything that can really help STL schools is good. When I think of all the accomplished folks who have come out of this city, I know there just have to be more promising people in this city who need a good education to help them do something great.

Anoman et al- the link Caroline provides is very interesting.

I reviewed the website. Do I sense even a hint of a suggestion that we dilute the program to cater to students who are not equipped to attend the KIPP schools? Defeats the purpose of the program, doesn’t it? For those who can’t succeed in the KIPP school, let them go elsewhere. But for those who can succeed in the KIPP school, let it be available to them for their benefit and future successes–Asian, African-American, European, or whatever!

Let’s not forget that Yale and Harvard, Wash U, Rice, U of I Urbana and a big clump of other institutions out there cater to a more advanced student, without any need to apologize.

I also read through the Blog that was listed. I fail to see how statistics on one charter school, in the absence of data on the public school system, is meaningful in any way.

I did some research and the most negative report I could find (funded by an anti charter group) said that the performance of the students was no better than those at government run public schools. Other studies have found that the charter students actually do better.

California bloggers and people with an ax to grind aside, lets not forget some basic facts pertaining to St. Louis. Our school system is failing, and the children are being left behind. A charter school is not a voucher program, it’s a public school. The students don’t pay tuition, all they have to do to get in is try hard. If they want to go back to a City/State run school, they are free to do so. The biggest difference between a charter system and a government run system is the government has no bureaucratic control over a charter school. Student performance, however, is closely watched.

I say let them try. The STL Public school system is in bad shape, if a charter public school can help the children then I’m all for it.

PS -Rob #3– That you know of!!

I say close all the city public schools and put all city kids in this program. The city schools started the decline when I attended in the 70’s. It will NEVER improve. Why are county public schools successful? Why didn’t we send the city board of education to Mehlville schools to learn how to run a public school system. Instead they paid how many million to consulting firm from Philadelphia? What results did that bring. We have good schools in the county..good public schools. I think this is great idea, but they should make it available to all students that are unlucky enough to attend the city public schools.

There is no magic bullet in dealing with education of the urban, nor the poor. As a teacher in the SLPS, there are many complex issues that need to be addressed that cannot be listed succinctly in this blog. Yes, there are failing schools, but to scrap the whole system would also eliminate schools like Metro, Nottingham CAJT, and other schools that are doing excellent work. Programs that are showing results in preparing students for post-secondary education like College Summit would also disappear. The SLPS has more advanced placement classes than neighboring districts.

For some of my hyping of the positive, I am not disillusioned enough to believe that there are not problems. Leadership is certainly a problem, but even accountability of building principals. There are teachers in the classroom who are there to collect a check and be protected by family members in positions of power…I have worked with a few. There are too many programs and silver bullets being shot at us to fix the problems, and they are unproven. Fortunately, I work in a school that sees a high rate of parent particpation, but there are too many other schools where we have absent parents.

As a community, there has to be ownership of public education by the community. The reason why the other communities are thriving is that the best and the brightest have resources and family support to achieve, despite the fact that there are kids there failing. Parochial schools do offer order in the classroom and the requirement that parents be active participants, public schools do not.

This is not a local problem in dealing with “failing” urban education. If businesses invested their time, personnel, and resources into the schools; we would have a much better picture of the SLPS. Until this community decides to be united for the sake of achieving for the children (and that includes the Post Dispatch bad mouthing teachers on MLK Day), there is no hope for improvement. I will not address the issue of race and its affect on education other than segregation is still rampant in this community and that is detrimental to the success of the district. In essence we will continue to have a dueling education system. One for those with money, one for those with no money but participation, and one for everyone else.

Hi St. Louians and ,media — my point is just that you should be aware that the KIPP program is clearly self-selecting for motivated, obedient, compliant kids from supportive families — and a huge number of students don’t cut it at KIPP schools. It’s not going to do anything for the kids who pose the true challenge to public education. And we have to wonder if any public school could get good results if it skimmed off those kids and dumped the rest on other schools.

California Carol,

Parochial and Private schools also “self-select for motivated, obedient, compliant kids from supportive families” - and they charge handsomely for the privilege. Since you have no objection to rich kids buying a their way into a school that demands more of them, I have to assume your objection is in letting the poor opt for a more rigorous, demanding education.

Carol, “Oh no little Timmy, we don’t want you to go to that school, they actually have high standards! No, we want you to stay here, so you can pull up the low scores of our under performing school!”

The rich in this world already have enough advantages, do you really want to take away a hard working child’s chance at a good education – just because they are poor?

re: jab to Rob…that you know of… LMAO That’s Anonaman…always thinking things through. That old joke still made me giggle. Only perk women have, they KNOW.
A you do make a good point. That’s the elephant standing in the room that nobody wants to admit seeing. What DO we do with the ever increasing number of children who may never do well in school after being born of alcoholic or other legal drug addicted parents who didn’t believe in health care during pregnancy, or hate society and just don’t care to raise kids to want to do well in school, or out? The parents who live lives of disruption and agression that their kids pick up on. The drama queens of society. That happens in suburbs, so don’t assume I speak of only city kids here. I am not arguing for or against charter schools because I don’t know enough about the modern ones. I am just saying, there are a number of kids who would harm another child’s class progress who wants to learn and is ready to work with parental support. Unless we could change their total environment, which we can’t, what would you do with them? I think the reason why few educators don’t want to lay this bare is that it will speak to the racism and fears that are REALLY behind a lot of school choice decisions. Maybe not in YOUR family, but in a lot that I know of. We can’t solve it unless we admit it.

To follow up on Ryan #2’s post, Harris Stowe does has responsibility for charter school Ethel Hedgeman Lyle Academy, along Washington Avenue, in Downtown. What is the result of this charter school?

Parents and teachers of students responding to a poll rank EHLA low. Poor administration leadership, lack of discipline, and class disruptions are the reasons they give.
http://www.greatschools.net/school/parentReviews.page?id=3008&state=MO&sortBy=dd&pager.offset=4

A friend of mine was a teacher there for a few years. Maybe the education there was marginally better, but it was still basically an inner city school and most of the inherent problems stemming from lack of stable home life. That, and poor, nonexistent, and revolving-door administration.

A state audit in 2004 found that charter schools lacked the expected oversight by the sponsoring university and the were not transparent to the state’s oversight and failed to comply with teacher certification laws.
http://www.auditor.mo.gov/press/2004-59.pdf

Charter schools are no cure-all for the public school system. Without skilled and dedicated teachers and administrators, and the participation of parents, children at any level will be left to flounder.

I’m an engineer. I like solving math problems because there is a clear answer.

Hi Anonaman. I don’t really object to KIPP. I just think that it needs to be clear how they achieve success, which is with practices that self-select for motivated, docile, compliant, obedient kids from supportive families. They dump the troubled kids on the public schools down the street. . As long as everyone is clear about that, fine.

When KIPP touts itself as superior to the schools that accepted its rejects and dumpees, and gets showered with private money because of it, that starts to bother me.

Again, my question is: If an existing St. Louis school could similarly skim off the motivated, docile, compliant, obedient kids from supportive families, and dump the rest on other schools, would it do as well as KIPP schools do? (That seems quite likely.)

Charter schools? How about fixing the public schools first!!????

I just love those knee-jerkers who oppose charter schools because they drain resources from the public schools. Rather than give SOME children an opportunity for a better education, you would condemn them all to the disaster which is the current public school system. Shame on you. Give some of these children a hand up AND improve the public schools at the same time. Such improvements can be accomplished with the resources that will ceratinly still be left and in place after the KIPP school opens. In the end, competition is valuable as it challenges the status quo. And the status quo at SLPS stinks.

Also a note of thanks to Joan Bray for being forward thinking enough not to further disrupt SLPS leadership by denying Rick Sullivan the opportunity to carry through on his efforts to make those much needed improvements. Kudos and blessings Ms. Bray.

As long as the goal is to increase the education currently offered to the young people of St. Louis, then offering charter school education to over 1500 children should be nothing but beneficial. Universities usually involve themselves in these matters, in this case overseeing and pretty much running a new form of schooling, when empirical research could be obtained. The one concern the STL Public school system and Wash U should focus on is the high teacher turnover rates charter schools show across the country. Charter schools are too new, and only in the long run we will be able to see their effects and benefits. A university over a ten year period should be able to inform us in the future if the move worked or not.

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