France is NOT a free country, and this is just proof of it. They routinely pass laws over there that wouldn’t have a chance in this country (and rightfully so).

If someone is forcing a woman to wear a burka, then arrest the people who are doing the forcing. You don’t ban the burka. There are no doubt some women are wear them willingly. You’d think the French could figure that out…

………I’ll keep this unfairness in mind next time I want to buy a necktie, a valentine’s day card, or have pork chops and a few beers for dinner in a Muslim country.

I believe I will wear a burka tomorrow to do my banking and get my drivers license renewal.

What about the right of the French to preserve French culture? Is it fair for the minority culture of Muslims to impose on the French? And if you think the French are being inconsiderate, just wait until Muslims are the majority. We’ll see then how much respect is given the French minority in its own homeland.

Something tells me this is a sign that the French are beginning to regret letting so many millions of Muslims to emigrate to France.

Wearing a burka is a form of discrimination, just like the head scarves worn by the American slaves. These burkas are not worn to ‘beautify’ women, like makeup & jewelry (which is an option), but rather to subjugate women, (which is mandatory- by culture & religion). So, Yes, I think France did right, to ban burkas in public places. Unless, Muslim men start wearing burkas….

It is a ‘proposed ban’. If I were to look into our history of proposed bans, and even some realized like prohibition, I think I could come up with some interesting if not completely stupid ones.

“In order for the ban be enacted, lawmakers must prove that burkas are being “imposed” on Muslim women against their will, according to the Independent.com.”

I know a very liberated and well educated Pakistani woman. She chooses to wear a scarf and covers herself from chin to toes. Try to tell her that she’s subjugated and you’ll get a lecture about her religious freedoms.

I should have said, ‘Pakistani-American woman’.

Don’t tell me about how suppressed Christians are in the Muslim world. I get it. Try to explain this to Jews and Muslims who are subjugated and characaturized in nativity scenes and passion plays.

Jellio,

There is a big difference between a head scarf and a burka. (I think the actual spelling is burqa, but I am not positive) Most head scarves do not make it difficult for the woman to move and breathe.

I understand the “religious freedom” thing, I really do. However, there are plenty of things that could be considered “religious” by Christians that would discriminate against women, minorities and homosexuals, like banning gay marriage or allowing a man to hit their wife to punish her, yet you wouldn’t be for those, would you???

I have a very hard time believing that any woman of any religion would choose to wear a burqa, especially if they really understood their worth as people and were not constantly told by their religion and their society that they are lower than dogs.

Religion is fine until it starts infringing on the rights of others. Women should be respected across all countries, races and religions!

I think a more complete quote of Sarkozy’s words might help:

“It will not be welcome on French soil. We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic’s idea of women’s dignity.”

We don’t allow Muslims (or Mormon’s for that matter) to marry multiple women, or marry under aged girls. Muslim countries don’t allow you to have a Bud with your Burger. And lord help you if you get caught chewing gum in Singapore.

In every country, there are local customs, morality and laws. What is moral (permitted) in your country, may be banned in another country. If a person chooses to live in another country they should be willing to assimilate. If they are unwilling to give up “the old ways” they are well advised to stay in the “old country” or find a new country that has laws more to their liking.

For better or worse, France has strong secular humanist underpinnings. Women are treated, upon pain of law, as equals in all ways. It should come as no surprise that they bristle at people who choose to live there, yet wish to treat their women as protected property.

Got lots of mixed emotions here. Nothing pisses me off more than people running the streets in turbins and burkas and such but it is part of their religion. Let’s face it, they don’t complain about me wearing my cross necklace showing my faith so I need to be more aware of their cultural things. I am trying pretty hard to accept it but do agree with the French that perhaps school and other places like that need to be monitored a bit more and perhaps policed to the point that the people do not need to wear such apparel. Oh well, I am trying harder to improve and hope this does not cause too many people to click into Political Correct mode.

Anonoman,

Thanks for such a well phrased post. You said exactly what I wanted to say, but you did it much better than I could.

I do find it interesting that so many people now are more than willing to cry foul over anything that is considered religious to either Christians or Jews, but they are more than willing to accept the religious freedoms of Muslims. I find that all three religions have good points and bad points, however it seems that only that bad of Christians and Jews is pointed out (intolerance of Gays, Priest Sex Scandals, etc…), yet only the good is pointed out in reference to Muslims despite their total lack of respect for women (which goes as far as genital mutilation in some extreme portions of the faith.)

We should be expecting better of all people of faith, not just Jews and Christians. No one deserves a pass on this.

Thanks Joey!!!

There is no possible justification for the ban. The ban not only prohibits those wearing the burka in subjugation but also those who choose to wear it. That’s not okay. Something as personal as clothing, particularly when it is a religious issue, should not be interfered with by the government. The problem is not the burka, the problem is the subjugation. Address that, not the clothing. This is just a symbolic move but it severely damages individual rights.

This is just unbelievable. How on earth could they be so indifferent to religion freedoms. This is truly a sign of the times that we are heading into.

Christian in this country have better cease attempting to force their worship down every ones throat and do everything in their power to keep the freedom of religion alive for all in this country no matter your religion.

This Nicolas Sarkozy man is truly anti-God and religion and Christians must get serious in their worship and stop giving people reason to loath us.

Average Jane,

Woman and men that I know who cover their head do it for religious reasons and desire to do it. Don’t be so stupid thinking that because you feel that it is degrading to woman that they feel this way, most gladly do it just as some of us Christians gladly follow some of our practices that some of you think are stupid and can’t imagine why we do it.

I think MAYBE they may be trying to make everyone EQUAL at least as far as how they look. Try to level the playing field and drop the visual things that make people judge you from the outside? Which like it or not people do judge you from the outside all the time……….

Lets turn this around….Arent the France into sun bathing naked? I wonder if a French family were to strip down in a Muslim country to get a good tan would the Muslim world accept it as a cultural different and be ok with it? I doubt it.

Joey, your first comment is incredibly patronizing. Your values are not necessarily shared by everyone else in the world. How do you know what a woman will choose to wear if she ”values” herself? Perhaps she values herself as a modest and loving servant of God, and therefore chooses to cover up? I say again, the clothing isn’t the problem; the problems is the human rights violation by the government in forbidding it; and the issue of whether a woman can choose to wear the burka or is being forced to do so. If being forced, the answer isn’t ban the burka but to, as I said before, address the subjugation directly, which likely causes more problems for the lady than just what she wears out in public.

Karen, the problem with your argument is that it can be used to support the opposite, too - let’s force ALL French women to wear the burka so that no one is “judged from the outside.” You’d object to being told you had to cover up; is it so hard to imagine that others might object to exposure? And as for “They do it, too” that’s a schoolyard argument but doesn’t really justify such an extreme intrusion into what should be an individual’s private decision. All that means is that Muslim countries invade people’s freedom as well.

As usual, Anonaman makes some good, thoughtful points. France has long been a bastion of humanism and societal freedom in comparison with many industrialized nations. One significant proof of France’s relative cultural openness and acceptance has been the number of blacks who have over recent generations emigrated to France from this country, finding freedom and acceptance there that they could not find here. So it is in light of this heritage that I find France’s consideration of this ban to be puzzling, uncharacteristically narrow and culturally domineering.

Perhaps Islamic culture should reconsider forcing women to wear this symbol of the subjugation of their sex, but in my opinion that doesn’t mean that France should jump to the polar opposite extreme of banning the burka.

While I support France’s right to interpret its own societal mores, I hope they reconsider this before they worsen an already-inflammatory cultural gap between the Middle East and the West. Banning the burka would single out Islam in the institution of a clearly discriminatory law. I don’t think you can compare this to allowing polygamy, as the fundamental laws of the nation should prevail (although there are still any number of polygamous households in our own country for which authorities look the other way). Within accepted public standards for decency, personal choice of attire should remain just that - a personal decision.

If France bans the burka, which is a premier symbol of Muslim practice and belief, than they should also ban the public display of the crucifix, the Star of David, and any other attire or accessory that is a clear endorsement of any other religion — and you can bet that won’t happen. Whoever is clamoring for this regulation has a personal agenda that should not become the law of the land.

The French have every right to ban something in France if the French percieve it to be degrading to women. I see no reason that the French should have to ignore their own values because someone moved in and has different values.

Anonoman put it well. If you want to live somewhere other than your native land, you should be prepared to accept the foreign culture/laws of your new home. Women are so low to these people, some of them kill their own wives/sisters for being raped. How sickening is that? Do they want to bring that aspect of their culture to France, too? Where should France, or any other country draw the line?

The same can be said even from within the borders of our country, too. Strip clubs and bars that are open 24/7 in Sauget would hardly be tolerated in many bible belt alcohol free counties elsewhere in the US. There are many states in this country that allow gambling, where it is not tolerated by others. If you are against it, you are free to pack up and go elsewhere.

I don’t see a problem with the French goverment wanting to outlaw the burkas. The Muslim culture is not French culture and if they want to continue living in France with all that France has to offer them, they should have to live like the French do. You know, when in Rome!!

I wish our country would buck up and make those who come here to live have to adhere to our customs (speaking English, working for a paycheck etc…) but our lawmakers are a bunch of chickens and don’t want to offend anyone. I say good job France!

It looks like most of the objections to the ban are based on the concept of religious freedom. That misses the point – the US has a strong tradition of religious freedom, France has a strong vein of secular humanism. In the US, this ban would never fly. In France? I think it will pass.

Boyd, thanks for the compliments However, I will point out that head scarfs in school WERE banned in France, back in 2004. But it wasn’t just Muslim head scarfs, it was all “conspicuous” religious symbols, including Sikh turbans, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crucifixes.

Still, I think this has more to do with trying to moderate and assimilate Islamic immigrant’s than the official reason of equal rights for women. Which brings up the question - What accommodations are due immigrants? The host country provides a new home, citizenship, rights and equal protection under the law. The immigrant renounces allegiance to their former country and agree to abide by the laws that govern citizens in their new country.

To me, it’s not that excessive for France to ask Muslim immigrant’s to work a bit harder to fit in. After all, France has taken them in – something few other countries would be willing to do.

B- thanks, it looks like you totally “get it”

France is just having a backlash due to the entire country slowly turning into a Muslim state. Similar to backlashes in America due to our turning into a Latin America State.

Free is free,

I want you to know that I am not trying to be close minded about this. I understand your point, and it is well taken.

All I am saying is that in my opinion, burqa’s are used primarily as a tool to keep women sheilded from the view of other men, mostly because women within the more extreme sects of Islam are viewed as sub-human, a type of property. Yes, I realize that this isn’t always the case, but I think you can say that it is true for the majority of those who are wearing this garment.

Hey, I could be wrong. Maybe these women really do want to walk around like that all day. And maybe young girls at age 10 enjoy having their private areas sliced up like a tomato with a rusty knife with no medicine or pain killers and maybe they enjoy never being able to feel any kind of sexual pleasure and to be scarred for the rest of their lives.

But I can’t help it, I don’t think they do. I think it is convienient for men to say that it’s a woman’s choice, when in the end it is really the man exerting their control over women.

“Don’t tell me about how suppressed Christians are in the Muslim world. I get it. Try to explain this to Jews and Muslims who are subjugated and characaturized in nativity scenes and passion plays.”

What? Jellio, sometimes you make no sense whatsoever…If you want to rip on Christianity, at least get a little accuracy in your diatribes, will ya?

The article mentions that other religious symbols (crucifixes, skull caps, etc) are banned as well, so at least the Frenchies are being consistent.

Didn’t our President state recently that we shouldn’t be “meddling” in another nation’s internal affairs? Who are we to tell the French what their culture is? To paraphrase an old saying, “When in Paris, do as the Parisians do”. I notice that Nancy Pelosi pulled a scarf around her head when she visited Muslim countries.

Since when is the wearing of HEAD TO TOE covering an integral part of Muslim culture? Yes, the covering of the head as a sign of modesty is a key part of the faith but that is not the same as the equivalent of being inside a black trashbag with eye holes. The only segments of Muslim population that enforce the burqa just happen to be the same sects that promote terrorism(Taliban, Wahhabism, etc). I liken the Muslim headscarves to a Jewish yarmulke or an Amish bonnet and I have no problem with them. The ONLY purpose of a burqa is to remove any sexuality and individual identity from women. How can a woman have an identity if no one but her husband and immediate family ever see her? Without an identity, you are just chattel to be subjugated…

the_Kemist,

Again, someone said exactly how I feel better than I could.

I guess I need to work on my communication skills!

Banning the Burka…

That’s what the American woman needs, she can continue to hide her face of expression and remove her sense of freedom America provides. We can tell our little girls they don’t have the right to go to school and our wives the freedom that they are used too…

I’m sorry but it should be banned… I see no difference in this religious garment and imposing it on young women in a family. It simply doesn’t belong and those ideas are not for true American Principles of choice, liberty, and freedom.

Wasnt the whole “its a religious culture thing” used when that father stabbed his daughter to death for dating a black guy. He did it out of lvoe for her he said. Love for his beliefs which she had forget…The arguement was “well they come from a different culture that allows this sort of thing to happen so we have to accept it etc..”

I suppose the French are thinking, hey you live here now not the middle east so do like we do, live by our rules or go back to your own nation.. Sounds racist I agree but France may see it as something they must do to preserve their own culture.. Maybe the whole “melting pot” concept doesnt much appeal to them..

No I’m not agreeing with it I’m just thinking outloud.

Just one problem with that, Bubba — defining what constitutes “true American principles….” etc. is enough of a slippery slope here in America. This is France, where our principles don’t apply - as well they shouldn’t.

I have gone on record to say that I dislike this ban, but as Anonaman points out, apparently France is being consistent, as long as they ban the outward display of adherence to other religions as well. The argument of what the burqa represents regarding women’s freedom/subjugation is a moot point, as it is applied in France, where no woman is forced by law to wear anything she chooses not to wear (and from what I hear of French beaches and network TV after 8:00 p.m. or so, they may indeed choose to wear nothing at all, God bless ‘em….). If anybody is “imposing” anything here, it is the women upon themselves.

So, while I instinctively don’t approve of the ban, if the government of France feels compelled by ecumenical/humanist tradition’s sake to outlaw what they consider a radical expression of which they disapprove, it is not for us or any other country to second-guess or critique their decision.

it is what they wear for their religion. A free nation has no right to ban anything that isn’t dangerous to others. I personally feel it is degrading to women, but honestly, that is their problem. Don’t underestimate the brainwashing power of Religion, Family and Tradition. The women probably see it as their duty and are happy to do it. If we raised our kids to wear pickles on their head because it will make Jesus love them, then they will probably grow up loving to do it and fight you to the death to keep their right to do so.
idiots.

There can be no justification, except in courtrooms or police stations where certain items of clothing can be used to conceal weapons. But my question is this: Do we want this type of heavy-handed government in America? Because it’s coming, unless we stop it. We are always told the European Union is a wonderful model for democratic government. Pinheads on U.S. campuses point to Europe’s collectivist approach to health care and environmental challenges. The only problem is that individual freedoms get lost in the shuffle. Do you relish the prospect of individuals being prosecuted for holocaust denial or journalists being jailed for fomenting discord? That’s what you get with Euro-syle international law, the kind of law at least three of our Supreme Court Justices have said should be taken into account in deciding cases on SCOTUS’ docket.

What I heard is that there is more to this than simply banning burkas. The French government has also recently banned covering the face in any public venue so that biometrics can be used to identify individuals (anyone else see the 1 + 1 in this yet?). Having a burka would obscure facial features and foil biometric scanners used in facial recognition. If they were truly banning religious icons, they’d have to ban crucifixes and magens David, as well. We don’t see that happening.

I believe a burka is a symbol of slavery. The muslim woman has been beaten down through history to accept their slavery through their religouis text.
Ask the question, what is the real reason for covering your entire body from view in public? Are your men so insecure and afriad you might tempt another man by showing yourself? What are you hideing from? I “culture” is worth this? I believe it is an extreme just as the “Britney nakedness” is the other extreme in the western “culture” Both are wrong in my “opinion’ but Britney is free—-muslim weman are NOT.

Boyd,

It’s not France, but that one little 3 ft. tall narcissist, Nicolas Sarkozy. What a crazy man and hopefully he is not as crazy as another little short narcissist who was from over that part of the world.

Any discussion on a “what if” seems rather dumb. How about a tangible subject?

Joe L - you’re quickly becoming my favorite poster around here.

This is an issue of human rights. I think we all agree that religious freedom is a basic human right, and that expression is a huge and major part of that. France is going way too far - regardless of their equal opportunity disenfranchisement.

France is no better than the oppressive religious sects that require this dress on their women. In an attempt to create equality, they are denying it. Equality after all cannot be forced or created, only offered. What next? How about banning the stay-at-home mom - that seems to be a symbol of old-time inequality. Let’s free women by forcing them to go to work.

France needs UN pressure just like every other human rights violator on the planet.

On a side note, I am very sensetive to the islamification of European culture, and do forsee backlash like this moving forward. But, I don’t think discrimination is the answer.

Also, if these women think they are honoring god by wearing this, who are we to say that they are not “free.” I do a lot of things that I believe honor God, and don’t care who may think that I’m not free to choose to do so. How ’bout we make tithing to a church illegal because it’s the church forcing people to hand over money. Ridiculous.

Just a quick thought.

Europe has experienced train bombings. As a consequence, security is told to look out for people wearing heavy clothing inappropriate for the weather – like an overcoat today. The idea is the heavy clothing easily allows a bomber or attacker to conceal explosives, weapons, etc.

A burka isn’t a veil – it’s a shroud covering the person from head to toe. Only eye holes are permitted, and those holes are often covered with mesh. When wearing one, you can’t tell if the person is strapped from head to toe with dynamite, holding an AK with magazines everywhere – heck, you can’t even tell if it’s a girl!

Should the risk posed by Muslim extremists allow France to prohibit wearing this concealing Muslim garment in public? Or do the people defending the burka feel the Muslims freedom of religion out weighs the publics desire for safety?

May I suggest the French start off by banning widespread racial discrimination in the workplace, education and housing in their country. Discrimination against minorities in all spheres of French life is rampant, and dealing with this problem head one would have a far bigger effect on improving the lot of French Muslim women than telling them how and how not to dress.

Obama’s probably gonna call Sarkozy and ream him out.

Thanks, Mike. Keep the faith and the powder dry, because in our lifetime, we’re probably going to see this kind of oppressive, government micromanagement of people’s lives right here in the U.S. What nobody seems to understand - they’re too busy enjoying their “freedoms” - is that our Constitution anticipates and outlines minimalist governance. At the time the U.S. and individual state constitutions were written, it was pretty much understood a second line of unwritten laws - basic mores - would keep our society orderly. The founders could not have anticipated we would shread those mores. In the absence of unwritten laws, a nation has to enact written ones to preserve order and safety. The laws written - or at least the ones that used to be written - on people’s hearts work the best.

I think that the only people that should wear these are the FOX NEWS Network staff.

If only our pres had the manly body parts of Sarkozy. I can’t see anything good about this form of outer wear. It is a good place to conceal your AK47 when you want to hold up a Seven Eleven, or a good place to hide your suicide bomb, or God only knows what else. Sarkozy is only doing the will of the people of France,if only we could swap our FOOL of a pres for Sarkozy.