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Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
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caw2728
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 03 Nov 2009 19:54 pm
If Canseco was the one who hit 70 in 1998, would he still feel the same way about all this? I wish someone would ask him that question.
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larrycook99
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 06:13 am
I think it is a poor comparison. Flood did what he did because of principles. From what I can see principles never entered Canseco's calculations.
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dodds2
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 06:27 am

taxfree wrote

It's nice to know someone that knew Curt Flood back in those days. I didn't realize that all Curt was doing was watching out for himself.


I think what he was trying to do was benefit the union as long as he was going to sit out anyway. He had no intention of playing in Philadelphia, and to his credit, he turned down a significant raise from the Phillies which showed that he wasn't holding out just to wrangle a pay raise, which many in baseball, players and management, thought he was trying to do. Nobody just gave up their baseball career voluntarily when they were still able to play at a high level.

His suit did help the union understand some of the strategies that the owners would employ to keep the anti-trust exemption, which kept them from getting sued by players bound by the reserve clause; without the exemption, the clause wouldn't hold up in court on its own. It may have pushed progress ahead a few years and put more pressure on the owners, but ultimately it wasn't necessary for Flood to do this on behalf of the players, because Miller already had players testing the reserve clause by threatening to go into a season unsigned, which automatically triggered the option year of the contract. The owners showed their hand by insisting the players sign a new contract before reporting to spring training and offering raises to get them to sign; to Miller that showed that they didn't think the option year (unsigned exercise of the contract) would hold up to scrutiny for more than one season.
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Starbuck
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 09:21 am

larrycook99 wrote

I think it is a poor comparison. Flood did what he did because of principles. From what I can see principles never entered Canseco's calculations.


Was not intended to be a comparison of principles and ethics, nor the intent of either man; the comparison is on the resulting impact these two men made on the players in the game.
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kjoe
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 09:57 am

Starbuck wrote

larrycook99 wrote

I think it is a poor comparison. Flood did what he did because of principles. From what I can see principles never entered Canseco's calculations.


Was not intended to be a comparison of principles and ethics, nor the intent of either man; the comparison is on the resulting impact these two men made on the players in the game.


I don't know how successful Canseco has been finacially regarding his book---but his "impact" seems like the demonstration of a very old principle---if you get in trouble, make lemonade out of lemons by marketing your mistakes.

The media appreciates that sort of wisdom, but I doubt it really adds much of value.
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dodds2
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 12:44 pm

Captain Spaulding wrote

My question is that if Canseco had been "allowed" to get homer number 500, would he still have outed anyone?


My guess is it wouldn't have made any difference to him. I'm not even sure 500 homers is still an automatic ticket into the HOF.
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makeham98
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 13:27 pm

Starbuck wrote

larrycook99 wrote

I think it is a poor comparison. Flood did what he did because of principles. From what I can see principles never entered Canseco's calculations.


Was not intended to be a comparison of principles and ethics, nor the intent of either man; the comparison is on the resulting impact these two men made on the players in the game.


Canseco is closer to that fat girl who wrote the letter to Steve Phillips' wife than he is to Curt Flood.
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Starbuck
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 13:46 pm
Canseco is closer to that fat girl who wrote the letter to Steve Phillips' wife than he is to Curt Flood.

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Funny analogy Laughing but I think Jose’s book changed a lot more history than did S. Phillip's big ugly fat girl.

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Starbuck
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 13:49 pm

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My guess is it wouldn't have made any difference to him. I'm not even sure 500 homers is still an automatic ticket into the HOF.


.... which might be ironic because PED's played a role in getting some of the players up to that home run level ... I'm just say'n. Laughing
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robem
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 04 Nov 2009 15:10 pm

dodds2 wrote

The sad thing about Curt Flood is that what he did really didn't have much effect on the player's winning their freedom, that was already in the works through the process that Marvin Miller set forward through labor negotiations. At that time, the commissioner handled all grievances between player and team, and Miller gently threatened to flood (no pun intended) Bowie Kuhn with dozens of grievances; Kuhn then agreed that an arbitrator (independant) should handle grievances. This is how the union got Hunter free-agency and also Messersmith when he played out his option year. Marvin Miller should be in the hall of fame. Flood just didn't want to play in Philadelphia, that had more to do with the suit than a sacrifice to benefit all players in the future.


Marvin Miller hung Flood out to dry(pun intended). But He wouldn't be the only dirtbag in the HOF.
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dodds2
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Post subject: Re: Bernie: Jose Canseco almost "Curt Flood?"
Posted: 06 Nov 2009 13:23 pm

robem wrote

Marvin Miller hung Flood out to dry(pun intended). But He wouldn't be the only dirtbag in the HOF.


What did Miller do to Flood to damage his case against baseball? I'm sure Miller knew that the likelihood of Flood overturning a supreme court decision was unlikely, but I don't see how Flood was exploited by Miller if Flood didn't intend to play baseball anymore. The union was paying the legal fees and must have thought the case would help the players in some way. Besides, the suit didn't prevent Washington from offering a two year deal for 110,000 per season to Flood, who walked out on the deal himself after a couple of months.

Miller may be the most qualified person for the HOF not in. If commissioners (representatives of owners)can get in, then representatives of the players should be eligible too. Bowie Kuhn is in, and Miller ran circles around him in terms of victories and concessions to the players. If Kuhn is honored and Miller not, that would be like putting Joe Nobody in the hall for serving up the most homers to Babe Ruth and then leaving Ruth out.
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