mtomto
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 02:52 am
MOSportsFan wrote
tgharris wrote
cardsfan1984 wrote
Well than he isn't coming back I guess.
The Cardinals aren't going to be a championship caliber team next season without him, and since they don't have the elite prospects to replace him through trade we won't be seeing a deus ex machina situation playing out either. But they shouldn't be giving a really good player, superstar caliber dollars and destroying this teams payroll flexibility for seven or eight years.
The Cardinals weren't a championship caliber team with him.
Good point. That's why i really don't understand why Mo has already annoited Freese as the 3rd basemen next year. The offense stunk in the second half, i really don't see Freese as a slam dunk offensive improvement for next year. If Holliday goes, then they need to greatly improve their offensive production for a number of positions so they can be a championshiip caliber team next year.
There are 400,000 reasons Mo sees Freese at 3B next year, plain and simple.
dodds2
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 08:01 am
cancun1 wrote
Keep in mind Pujols has made it clear he is looking for the Cards to make a long term commitment to the franchise before he commits to them. If we don't sign a Holliday/Bay or a Derosa what message is that sending to him?
I could see this line of thinking if Albert is willing to take a discount to sign longterm; otherwise Card management may be clearing salary space to sign him to a contract matching what he would get from the Yankees or Angels. By discount I'm talking 5 mil per season if he expects to have a Holliday type player hitting behind him.
Things have really changed in the last ten years because back then the Cardinals could afford players like McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen, Renteria. Those players in their prime now would seemingly be out of reach for the Cardinals and a bunch of other teams in the salary level below the Yankees.
winston
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 12:23 pm
mtomto wrote
MOSportsFan wrote
tgharris wrote
cardsfan1984 wrote
Well than he isn't coming back I guess.
The Cardinals aren't going to be a championship caliber team next season without him, and since they don't have the elite prospects to replace him through trade we won't be seeing a deus ex machina situation playing out either. But they shouldn't be giving a really good player, superstar caliber dollars and destroying this teams payroll flexibility for seven or eight years.
The Cardinals weren't a championship caliber team with him.
Good point. That's why i really don't understand why Mo has already annoited Freese as the 3rd basemen next year. The offense stunk in the second half, i really don't see Freese as a slam dunk offensive improvement for next year. If Holliday goes, then they need to greatly improve their offensive production for a number of positions so they can be a championshiip caliber team next year.
There are 400,000 reasons Mo sees Freese at 3B next year, plain and simple.
Yes the 400 is one factor; the easing in of two homegrown talents now (rasmus & freese)to everyday status is part of it, and re-signing Holliday is part of it, to let the rookies do what rookies do.
If they don't sign him, it will be a set-back to the idea of growing organically while maintaining a club that can win the division.
All any team can do is get to the playoffs. Just ask the Yankees. They failed for years on end to advance to the WS.
jrmomo100
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Post subject: well
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 12:50 pm
the FO new makin these trades it could be for a 3month rental...And it will be ....Derosa will go to the cubs..Holliday is gone draft picks are ok...Lets understand with the economy the way it is there will be some decent players aval...I know no Hollidays or Bays but I would like to take a flyer on Cameron for a 1 or 2 yr deal..Tell him when u sign him its for Lf...Then if Freese is yr 3rd baseman so be it...ur line up can look like this...2nd sch...C molina(hi obp)good in front of albert wont steal bases but who cares will get on base.3 5 1st 4th Luddy 5th rasmus 6th cameron 7 3rd freese or craig..8th ryan 9th pitcher spot..if u want switch molina and freese....Get vet left handed bat for bench who can play 3rd base,,..strong bench please..ALso one starter not smoltz sorry just dont see it..one closer type pitcher and save some money for mid season...
Starbuck
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 15:10 pm
Obviously, Holliday will not be a Cardinal. Bay will not be a Cardinal. The Cardinals will not be a legitimate player in the bidding war. They will go through the motions and offer a lot less than what will ultimately be paid for those two guys. I’m not passing judgment; I’m just stating the obvious.
Not much chance even DeRosa will be a Cardinal. Although I would definitely like to see the Cardinals make a strong effort to keep DeRosa. He will likely be a very good player next season after his injury is healed.
_________________
Extreme points of view are usually ironic and almost always, erroneous.
B_Ruby
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 15:46 pm
MOSportsFan wrote
tgharris wrote
cardsfan1984 wrote
Well than he isn't coming back I guess.
The Cardinals aren't going to be a championship caliber team next season without him, and since they don't have the elite prospects to replace him through trade we won't be seeing a deus ex machina situation playing out either. But they shouldn't be giving a really good player, superstar caliber dollars and destroying this teams payroll flexibility for seven or eight years.
The Cardinals weren't a championship caliber team with him.
Good point. That's why i really don't understand why Mo has already annoited Freese as the 3rd basemen next year. The offense stunk in the second half, i really don't see Freese as a slam dunk offensive improvement for next year. If Holliday goes, then they need to greatly improve their offensive production for a number of positions so they can be a championshiip caliber team next year.
Because Freese was successful at every level in the minors, batting .308/.384/.532/.916 and averaging 23 HR and 102 RBI about every 550 plate appearances/500 AB. Even though he skipped from high-A in 2007 to AAA in 2008, he didn't blink when facing the level of competition. Freese put up similar numbers at Memphis (.306/.361/.550/.910). He hit for power and for average, while showing the ability to take walks and get on base consistently.
Moreover, the late season at Memphis in 2009 and the PCL playoffs gave Freese to show himself as a clutch hitter.
If Freese hits at 80% of the numbers/PA he did in the minors, perhaps 17-18 HR with 80-85 RBI and a .275 batting average AND plays the kind of defense he's capable of, that would be pretty welcome, especially for a team which got a .229 BA/.292 OBP/65 RBI from all their third basemen in 2009.
I think in years to come, Cardinal fans will look at the Edmonds-Freese deal and marvel how Mozeliak was able to get such a player out of the Padres, in exchange for a high-dollar guy nearing the end of his career.
MOSportsFan
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 18:01 pm
B_Ruby wrote
MOSportsFan wrote
tgharris wrote
cardsfan1984 wrote
Well than he isn't coming back I guess.
The Cardinals aren't going to be a championship caliber team next season without him, and since they don't have the elite prospects to replace him through trade we won't be seeing a deus ex machina situation playing out either. But they shouldn't be giving a really good player, superstar caliber dollars and destroying this teams payroll flexibility for seven or eight years.
The Cardinals weren't a championship caliber team with him.
Good point. That's why i really don't understand why Mo has already annoited Freese as the 3rd basemen next year. The offense stunk in the second half, i really don't see Freese as a slam dunk offensive improvement for next year. If Holliday goes, then they need to greatly improve their offensive production for a number of positions so they can be a championshiip caliber team next year.
Because Freese was successful at every level in the minors, batting .308/.384/.532/.916 and averaging 23 HR and 102 RBI about every 550 plate appearances/500 AB. Even though he skipped from high-A in 2007 to AAA in 2008, he didn't blink when facing the level of competition. Freese put up similar numbers at Memphis (.306/.361/.550/.910). He hit for power and for average, while showing the ability to take walks and get on base consistently.
Moreover, the late season at Memphis in 2009 and the PCL playoffs gave Freese to show himself as a clutch hitter.
If Freese hits at 80% of the numbers/PA he did in the minors, perhaps 17-18 HR with 80-85 RBI and a .275 batting average AND plays the kind of defense he's capable of, that would be pretty welcome, especially for a team which got a .229 BA/.292 OBP/65 RBI from all their third basemen in 2009.
I think in years to come, Cardinal fans will look at the Edmonds-Freese deal and marvel how Mozeliak was able to get such a player out of the Padres, in exchange for a high-dollar guy nearing the end of his career.
Freese is like 62 years old and waiting a few years until his Social Security kicks in. All kidding aside, he's 27, which for a baseball prospect is ancient. There are plenty of guys who can rake in the minors, but just aren't good enough to hack it in the majors. I'm betting he's one of those guys. He's never been a highly touted prospect in San Diego and in St. Louis. Wallace was always viewed as the 3B of the future. If the Cards resign Holliday, then by all means play Freese. He's cheap. But if they don't sign Holliday or Bay, then the Cards would be complete tards if they trot out this guy as the starting 3B for next season. To improve for next year, they need to improve their production from 3B, not hope to meet it.
Man of the West
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 22:43 pm
With all due respect, Strauss is flat wrong. This year, Soriano wouldn't get Soriano money. And neither will Holliday. One, few teams/few owners are going to drop that much money in the current economic conditions. Those guys didn't get rich by being enormously stupid. Two, even if an owner was willing to do so, that kind of spending would be a big PR problem when 15% of the country is out of work. Three, the only team crazy enough to overspend nearly $50M for Holliday (which is the amount Strauss is talking about) is the Yankees - who just won a WS without Holliday and therefore have little need for him. Four, there is zero market pressure to drive his price that high. Bay, the 2nd most coveted FA, may possibly get a $60M contract. Nobody is going to pay 2.5 times more than that to get exactly the same player in Holliday. Strauss is way off the mark. The price for Holliday will top out around 105M over 6 years.
B_Ruby
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 00:26 am
MOSportsFan wrote
B_Ruby wrote
Because Freese was successful at every level in the minors, batting .308/.384/.532/.916 and averaging 23 HR and 102 RBI about every 550 plate appearances/500 AB. Even though he skipped from high-A in 2007 to AAA in 2008, he didn't blink when facing the level of competition. Freese put up similar numbers at Memphis (.306/.361/.550/.910). He hit for power and for average, while showing the ability to take walks and get on base consistently.
Moreover, the late season at Memphis in 2009 and the PCL playoffs gave Freese to show himself as a clutch hitter.
If Freese hits at 80% of the numbers/PA he did in the minors, perhaps 17-18 HR with 80-85 RBI and a .275 batting average AND plays the kind of defense he's capable of, that would be pretty welcome, especially for a team which got a .229 BA/.292 OBP/65 RBI from all their third basemen in 2009.
I think in years to come, Cardinal fans will look at the Edmonds-Freese deal and marvel how Mozeliak was able to get such a player out of the Padres, in exchange for a high-dollar guy nearing the end of his career.
Freese is like 62 years old and waiting a few years until his Social Security kicks in. All kidding aside, he's 27, which for a baseball prospect is ancient. There are plenty of guys who can rake in the minors, but just aren't good enough to hack it in the majors. I'm betting he's one of those guys. He's never been a highly touted prospect in San Diego and in St. Louis. Wallace was always viewed as the 3B of the future. If the Cards resign Holliday, then by all means play Freese. He's cheap. But if they don't sign Holliday or Bay, then the Cards would be complete tards if they trot out this guy as the starting 3B for next season. To improve for next year, they need to improve their production from 3B, not hope to meet it.
Wallace was a bat of the future, but not necessarily the third baseman of the future. At best it was anticipated he would probably have to play LF if he had stayed with the Cards, because Wallace is a liability at 3B and wouldn't have displaced Pujols at 1B (his best position) unless Pujols would not be re-signing with St. Louis.
Your sarcasm aside, try doing some research before you lump someone who's a 4-year pro like Freese with career minor leaguers. You make it sound like Freese is the next Scott Seabol or John Gall. Big distinction.
Freese was drafted in 2006, in the same June draft which the Cards took Chris Perez and Colby Rasmus. Like Perez and Rasmus, Freese would have had his first full season in the majors in 2009 if not for the off-season foot injury which was re-injured early in the regular season and required surgery.
And so what if he played two years of junior college baseball at Meramec in St. Louis, and two years at South Alabama (where he won the conference batting title)? Some guys aren't ready to turn pro at 18, and Freese's development was served well playing college baseball. After all, Ryan Howard went undrafted at age 18 too, and benefited from three years of college baseball (turning pro a year younger than Freese). And Howard didn't have his first full season in the majors (2006) until he was 26 years old, five years after he turned pro.
Coincidentally, 2010 will be Freese's fifth pro season.
Turning pro at 22 and making the majors at 26 is nothing to thumb one's nose at, as Freese has succeeded at every level he's been at, and last year's foot injury was the first time he had not moved on to the next (and this time, ultimate level), thus making it necessary for Freese to go back to AAA in 2009 for essentially a rehab stint after surgery.
You'll have every right to gripe about Freese if he is stuck at AAA for 6 or 7 years, like Scott Seabol, or John Rodriguez (about 6 years at AAA), or Gall (6 1/2 years at AAA), guys who could "rake" at the minor league level but were stuck too long at AAA and couldn't stick at the majors. Or Brian Barden, who peaked at AAA at 2004 but in 2009 was still a major league "rookie" when he was named the "NL Rookie of the Month" in April of this year.
The team had enough confidence in Freese in spring 2009 that if he hadn't been injured, he would have probably been the third baseman this season....and spared the club and fans the Thurston-Barden platoon. Rasmus has already had his learning experience with one full year in the pros...and likewise Perez learned on the job and improved substantially with Cleveland as the season progressed.
And likely, the Cards could have saved Perez and Todd from the necessity of being traded to fill 3B with DeRosa. Who knows, if Freese hadn't been hurt in an off-season car accident, maybe the Cards could have ended up trading Perez and Jess Todd for Cliff Lee.
In other words, Freese will probably cause you to lose your "bet." Looking forward to 2010 and 2011 to see Freese progress at he major league level and prove you wrong.
Last edited by B_Ruby on 09 Nov 2009 01:10 am; edited 2 times in total
B_Ruby
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 00:51 am
Some guys don't get the hype of being "highly touted" if they're not in the top few rounds. Freese was a 9th round pick, and got to work on his game in anonymity.
Just ask Keith Hernandez and Ed Kurpiel how much it means to be "highly touted." Kurpiel, a well-publicized high school 1B phenom, was the #1 pick of the Cardinals in the 1971 June amateur draft. Keith Hernandez was picked in the 42nd round in the same draft. Same age, same position. Kurpiel's swing drew comparisons to Stan Musial.
Each first baseman was assigned to a different Class A Cardinal rookie league team in 1971.
Hernandez made his major league debut in September 1974, and was up to stay the following year, enjoying a 17-year major league career in which he had over 2000 hits, won an MVP award, and 11 Gold Gloves.
Kurpiel had his ups and downs in 903 games over eight minor league seasons, but never played in a major league game.
B_Ruby
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 00:59 am
Man of the West wrote
With all due respect, Strauss is flat wrong. This year, Soriano wouldn't get Soriano money. And neither will Holliday. One, few teams/few owners are going to drop that much money in the current economic conditions. Those guys didn't get rich by being enormously stupid. Two, even if an owner was willing to do so, that kind of spending would be a big PR problem when 15% of the country is out of work. Three, the only team crazy enough to overspend nearly $50M for Holliday (which is the amount Strauss is talking about) is the Yankees - who just won a WS without Holliday and therefore have little need for him. Four, there is zero market pressure to drive his price that high. Bay, the 2nd most coveted FA, may possibly get a $60M contract. Nobody is going to pay 2.5 times more than that to get exactly the same player in Holliday. Strauss is way off the mark. The price for Holliday will top out around 105M over 6 years.
I understood Joe Strauss was reporting on info Scott Boras was floating about Boras' projected expectations, maybe because Boras was blowing smoke trying to drum up a market. I wasn't aware that was Strauss' opinion.
B_Ruby
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Post subject: Re: Strauss:A Soriano contract will not get it done for Holliday
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 21:03 pm
MOSportsFan, I've lived in West County all my life, saw both Howard and Freese play in high school. Saw Howard play while he was at Southwest Missouri State (now Missouri State), and saw Freese play at Meramec. Howard was a man among boys at Lafayette but still needed to refine his game before turning pro, despite some awesome strength. Howard's coach at Missouri State helped him a lot.
Sure Freese was more a sleeper at first, since few organizations hype 9th round picks. But he made himself into a better prospect, and the Cards didn't just pick fodder in the Edmonds deal just because he was someone originally local. The Cardinals don't need to acquire someone who went to a local high school just to meet their 3 million in annual attendance.
The STL scouts (and the scouts of other teams) saw something in Freese in his last year in the Padres organization, but San Diego happened to have 3B well stocked, with two other guys ahead of him: Kevin Kouzmanoff (drafted in 2003 by the Indians, traded to the Padres in 2006 for Josh Barfield); Kouzmanoff had just finished his rookie year for S.D., after tearing the cover off the ball in three of his four seasons in the Cleveland minor league system. The Padres also had Chase Headley (2nd round pick in 2005) playing 3B in AA in 2007, whose stats in his previous two years weren't much different than Freese's very good numbers. Headley is the same age, but had turned pro a year earlier than Freese.
San Diego was dealing from a position of strength and depth at 3B because they had two other capable young third basemen at higher levels in their system who were blocking Freese anyway: Kouzmanoff at the MLB level, Headley was moving up to AAA, and Freese was slated for AA in 2008. Other teams were interested in Freese, but the Padres overestimated what Edmonds had left, and gave up Freese for the veteran CF.
So I still don't understand why you've already assessed Freese as a AAAA minor leaguer, given he's been a pro only 4 years, and taken pretty much the same path and enjoyed much of the same successful numbers as the two players who were ahead of him in the Padres system who are now contributing major leaguers. I know two scouts (one with the White Sox, another who recently left the Rangers) who both think Freese is the real thing, and at least as good as Kouzmanoff (and probably better defensively than Kouzmanoff).
No "man crush" here, just looking at "facts" too, plus relying on the subjective opinions of a couple of professionals who have been around the pro game for a few decades. Although I quoted or referred to facts/stats, I didn't notice any such things in your posts, just an opinion and a repetition of other (amateur) opinions. I just think I have an appreciation for talent and when it comes to opinions, I trust those of professionals over the "baseball prospectus" group.
Furthermore, I don't understand why you have to resort to vulgarities, they don't support your arguments. Can't you make points without personal attacks? Show some class.
