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Murray Supporters
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EOM
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 06 Nov 2009 23:02 pm

Coins wrote

BarnBurner wrote

Coins wrote

BarnBurner wrote

Coins wrote

BarnBurner wrote

Coins wrote

I like Murray but I tire of him saying constantly that players earn their ice time. What he means to say is vets get a free pass while rookies have to really shine to earn some ice time.


There is, and should be, a different standard for veterans and rookies, both in
sports, and in the workplace.


As long as the vets are holding up their end, youre absolutely correct. You shouldnt get a free pass since you have some seniority. In the workplace, a "veteran" that isnt producing are usually the ones let go in favor of harder working, lesser paid "rookies".


True, but unlike in the workplace, unless the vets can be traded, you are stuck with their contracts, so going the extra mile to try and turn those people around, is usually a wise route to take.


Those contracts are sunk costs so you shouldnt consider the money spent when deciding what to do with your team.


As a fan - it's not a big deal.
If you are the New York Rangers or Detroit Redwings with big pockets - no big deal.
If you are the st. Louis Blues - cost has to be a factor in your decisions.
There are times when you eat costs, when there is good reason (see McKee), but it has to be done sparingly, and responsibly.


Cost has to be a factor, sure. Money already spent is a sunk cost and doesnt matter anymore. Just because you pay Kariya 6 million a year doesnt mean he has to play. Whether he plays or not, you spent 6 million dollars. Pick from the pieces you have, and put the best team on the ice. Ignore the sunk costs.


Winning has to be the bottom line. If the Blues management makes winning the top priority, the money will come. More fans will come, more merchandise will sell, and more revenue will be generated from home playoff games.
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10WSChamps
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 01:21 am
If Murray isn't in step with the "youth movement" then my supposition is he would have never been hired to coach this team...afterall that's what a rebuild from the ground up is about.

The best players should play..if Kariya (who I believe is well past it) and Boyes can't get it done then the yonuger players need to get more ice time..

We only have contractual control over those players for so long..play them and let us get the the good out of them before they blossom elsewhere..

Murray's in a no-win situation really. The pressure is on to improve over last year and again make the playoffs and then some when the reality is the veterans are a year older and a lot of the younger players are afraid to make a mistake..

There's a reason the old adage "youth must be served" was invented...its time for them to sit at the big table.
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Blues Fanatic
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 02:14 am
I still maintain that murray cannot coach a skilled team... He wants a roster full of mindless grinders who will do whatever he asks for ice-time.

Things like the 40 second shifts or else you'll be punished, and mandatory naps on the plane to Sweden has worn beyond thin with me and I'd imagine with some of the players too. I see him as a short-term coach.

He has good qualities... I think he is very hockey smart, he prepares well, he's passionate about the sport... Having said that, I think he'd make a very good assistant coach.

Last year is last year and has no bearing on 'this' years team...

andy needs to take the shackles off and let the talented players USE their talents... ENOUGH with the rigid gameplans!
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BarnBurner
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 08:07 am

Blues Fanatic wrote



Things like the 40 second shifts or else you'll be punished, and mandatory naps on the plane to Sweden has worn beyond thin with me and I'd imagine with some of the players too. I see him as a short-term coach.


Have you ever flown to Europe?
Those "naps" were pretty pro-active in my view.
When I flew over, I spent my first 24 hours, feeling like I was carrying a 200lb weight on my shoulders.
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xkilosoldierx
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 09:20 am

BarnBurner wrote


Have you ever flown to Europe?
Those "naps" were pretty pro-active in my view.
When I flew over, I spent my first 24 hours, feeling like I was carrying a 200lb weight on my shoulders.


Are you really AM? Andy is that you??
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tubastarr
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 09:41 am

EOM wrote

BarnBurner wrote

I don't agree with everything Murray does.
Personally, I would have parked Boyes, Carlo and Berglund in the pressbox for a couple of games each by now.
All I know, is that every single time, he is asked why he has done something - the answer always makes perfect sense to me.
Plus, unless they clearly demonstrate otherwise (see Mike Kitchens), I tend to think that a head coach probably knows a lot more about his team, and all the factors concerning it, than a simple fan like myself does.
I agree with his position that you make your own breaks.
If you do not have momentum - make it by doing something.
If you are not playing with confidence - make something happen, and you will be confident.
Waiting for someone to do it for you doesn't work.
I agree with his making rookies earn their way, not giving anything. It's the best thing for them, and the team in the long run.
Like all coaches, at some point, he will be replaced, but I don't think the Blues problems right now, are because of the coach. We have some players that are not paying the price for success, and the team by and large is not playing with desperation, like we say in the second half of last year.


That's a good point, but then why doesn't he treat the veterans the same way? I'm not saying he doesn't hold them accountable (even if we can't see it) but why are underperforming players like Boyes and Kariya getting more ice time than the youngsters? I think they've earned their way. Perron and Oshie have been excellent, Berglund is looking much better, and Eller had a very strong first game.


What exactly are young players learning by having to earn their way on to a bad team? Under Murray's watch, you have to play like the vets to earn playing time. OK, so disappear like Karyia, take dumb penalties like Tkachuk, and float, miss the net, and be a career minus player like Boyes, and you'll earn that playing time. Brilliant!
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Bacchk
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 10:03 am
Hipcheck, rarely do I agree with you, but in this case I do on this point - it is too early to consider firing AM - who is out there to replace him at this stage of the game? I would ask AM if veterans aren't performing and younger players are, the ice time should reflect that, for instance, Boyes plays 8 mins. and Eller plays 20 mins.. Or Weaver plays 10 and Pie plays 22 mins. It's Nov. what's wrong with seeing what kind of cards you've been dealt?
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BarnBurner
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 10:41 am

xkilosoldierx wrote

BarnBurner wrote


Have you ever flown to Europe?
Those "naps" were pretty pro-active in my view.
When I flew over, I spent my first 24 hours, feeling like I was carrying a 200lb weight on my shoulders.


Are you really AM? Andy is that you??


Cute...
I see you didn't answer my question.
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Peter_Wiggin
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 13:08 pm
There has to be an up and coming assistant out there that currently works for a team that uses a skilled puck moving system. Identify this person and make him the new coach.

In my opinion the Blues become better by subtracting Murray.
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forgetyerskatesdream
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 13:46 pm
I'm in the small camp that believes that professional coaches (especially NHL, NBA, and MLB managers) get WAY too much credit for success and WAY too much blame for losing.

Hell, if Barry Melrose can coach a team to the Finals, how hard can it be? Wink
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larueskee
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 13:57 pm

xkilosoldierx wrote

BarnBurner wrote


Have you ever flown to Europe?
Those "naps" were pretty pro-active in my view.
When I flew over, I spent my first 24 hours, feeling like I was carrying a 200lb weight on my shoulders.


Are you really AM? Andy is that you??


Burner has been here longer than Andy..much longer.
I had not heard of the naps but I bet the vets would nap anyway and the kids would be playing video games. the team did win two games in Europe so Murry got this one right.
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BarnBurner
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Post subject: Re: Murray Supporters
Posted: 07 Nov 2009 13:59 pm

forgetyerskatesdream wrote

I'm in the small camp that believes that professional coaches (especially NHL, NBA, and MLB managers) get WAY too much credit for success and WAY too much blame for losing.

Hell, if Barry Melrose can coach a team to the Finals, how hard can it be? Wink


Players that produce make great coaches.

Players that don't get coaches fired.

Which is to say - I agree - it's a LOT more about the players than the coach.
Too often, blaming the coach is sort of like "I just want to press a button and make it ok".
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