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the faithful are making excuses, again
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Touchy Tiger
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 13:39 pm
And you think I am being overboard look at what just go posted. Maybe you guys are wearing on me but this kind of goes beyond some coach bashing.


"No TV for Iowa State game: KU game time set
By Mike Smith
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If your idea of a good time is watching Mizzou’s secondary getting toasted and Mizzou’s offense throwing, throwing, throwing into triple coverage, you’ll have to be at Faurot Field to do so when the Tigers play Iowa State.

The Big 12 announced today that the Tigers-Cyclones game on Nov. 21 was not chosen for that day’s TV package. Kickoff time remains TBA.

Kickoff for the Cowtown Showdown on Nov. 28 between Big 12 North cellar dwellers Mizzou and Kansas has been set for 2:30 p.m. on ABC."

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Touchy Tiger
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 13:49 pm
I think we cross posts. Fair enough. There is lots of doom and gloom and its expected after a bitter and disappointing loss. I was there as I usually am and its downright disappointing to say the least. The doom and gloom should be more reasonable and measured the more time after the loss. But this one was particularly hard to understand, let alone stomach. So I am not shocked no one is in the mood for cheerios today. Try back in a few days.
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Mortie68
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 16:27 pm
UH BRIG

as part of your college education did you ever learn to consider a question as a question seeking opinions versus a statement of fact?

So here is a question for you BRIG, is Alden a great Athletic Department builder or not. Should I consider him the equal to the NU, UT or OU AD? Or am I better to consider him as very good at getting money into the system to help germinate flash growth but not long term on the field success? Which is it or is it both, IYHO?

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Coach Big Al
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Post subject: It's now imbalanced for a re
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 17:22 pm

brignatious wrote

It's fine touchy...you can be a grumpy as you like. Most on this board are - it's the main reason that I stay away from it primarily anymore. I don't post here nearly as much as I used to (talking years ago) and I stick primarily to the Powermizzou board. It's a place that actually DOES have balanced discussions.

What's most funny about this place is that because I make two or three posts in defense of the program, I'm labeled a "Kool aid drinker" and that I'm serving up "the cheerios." I have all kinds of beef with what I saw on Saturday, but there's no point in posting it here...it'll just get drowned out by the countless people who show up only after a bad loss and flood the place with hyperbole and rants about how Pinkel and his staff should be kicked to the curb.

So by all means, enjoy this place - it's free and open to anyone who wants to post in it, which means you get what you get - it's similar to Tigerboard in those respects. Neither place is all that appealing to me (though Tigerboard is much worse), so have at it - it's certainly your right to do so. It is too bad though, because I remember when this board used to be a really good place for reasonable and balanced discussion about Mizzou - not just a sounding board for people after a loss. Most of those old regular posters aren't found here anymore, at least not very often.

Maybe I'll check back in after a few days and see if some of the perpetually p!ssy posters (say that 5 times fast) have tired out.


Smile Might I suggest the reason you don't find a balanced discussion about Mizzou football anymore, is because the program's failures have removed our ability to be fair and balanced. Most intelligent fans realize this program is in terrible disarray so finding positive support gets harder and harder. To have a balanced discussion you need roughly the same number of people on each side and that, my friend, is now an impossibility.
CBA Smile

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Moe_Szyslak
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 17:38 pm

Mortie68 wrote

UH BRIG

as part of your college education did you ever learn to consider a question as a question seeking opinions versus a statement of fact?

So here is a question for you BRIG, is Alden a great Athletic Department builder or not. Should I consider him the equal to the NU, UT or OU AD? Or am I better to consider him as very good at getting money into the system to help germinate flash growth but not long term on the field success? Which is it or is it both, IYHO?


The comparison to NU, UT and OU, regarding football programs, is absurd. The tradition and money at each school puts them in a different league, and I wouldn't trade places with NU, straight up, today.

Alden has dramatically improved revenues, plant and overall performance. We are winning, clean, on the field and in the classroom. He's hired, in Pinkel and Anderson, character guys who win the right way. Pinkel has won 35 of the last 49 games. CMA almost made the Final Four in his third year.

Flash growth? You forgot to take your Adderall.

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Riley Fuzzel
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 17:55 pm

Touchy Tiger wrote

And you think I am being overboard look at what just go posted. Maybe you guys are wearing on me but this kind of goes beyond some coach bashing.


"No TV for Iowa State game: KU game time set
By Mike Smith
Email this Share this Print this Digg Yahoo! Del.icio.us Facebook Reddit Drudge Google Fark Stumble It!
If your idea of a good time is watching Mizzou’s secondary getting toasted and Mizzou’s offense throwing, throwing, throwing into triple coverage, you’ll have to be at Faurot Field to do so when the Tigers play Iowa State.

The Big 12 announced today that the Tigers-Cyclones game on Nov. 21 was not chosen for that day’s TV package. Kickoff time remains TBA.

Kickoff for the Cowtown Showdown on Nov. 28 between Big 12 North cellar dwellers Mizzou and Kansas has been set for 2:30 p.m. on ABC."


Everyone knows that Mike Smith is one of the worst bandwagon fans there are. Laughing

(I thought it was funny---at this point all you can do is laugh about it---and the shots are part of the deal after you give up 40 to freakin' Baylor at home; and the KU/MU game may very well determine which team finishes 11th in a 12 team conf, although if we get lucky and beat KU, then CO might lay claim to the 11th spot).

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brignatious
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 18:02 pm

Mortie68 wrote

UH BRIG
as part of your college education did you ever learn to consider a question as a question seeking opinions versus a statement of fact?
So here is a question for you BRIG, is Alden a great Athletic Department builder or not. Should I consider him the equal to the NU, UT or OU AD? Or am I better to consider him as very good at getting money into the system to help germinate flash growth but not long term on the field success? Which is it or is it both, IYHO?



Quote

is Alden a great Athletic Department builder or not.


I would say he's very, very good. I would reserve the term "great" until we've seen if he can accomplish a few more things (Final Four for one, CWS again for the baseball team another), but that's just my take on the word great.

Quote

Should I consider him the equal to the NU, UT or OU AD?


-NU: I would say equal is a good term for Alden and Tom Osborne, although I would give the edge to Alden for his teams' recent successes in the more glamorous sports (Football, Mens BBall, Baseball).

-OU: I think Joe Castiglione is the best AD in the nation (particularly with the non-revenue sports), and I think he's the best AD Mizzou has ever had, so no, I don't put Alden at that level. However, I don't think it's a huge gap. Please consider the resources available at each program...which leads us to...

-Texas: Asking if Mike Alden is a better AD than DeLoss Dodds is just silly on so many levels. (He's not, btw) For one, Dodds is one of the more legendary ADs in the country, and has been at his post for 28 years. For another, Dodds has the kind of resources available to him at UT that are akin to the Yankees in baseball. Texas always finishes in the top 10 in the Director's Cup standings. Mike Alden could be Jesus Tebow himself, and would never be able to match what Dodds has at UT.

Quote

Or am I better to consider him as very good at getting money into the system to help germinate flash growth but not long term on the field success?


You can consider him whatever you want. Somehow, I doubt anything I've said will sway your opinion. Has Alden been good at bringing money into the program? Yeah, he has. (I don't know any of those figures) And with that, he's been able to pay premium prices for big-time, highly sought coaches. Say what you like about Gary Pinkel...facts are, a year ago this fan base was on pins and needles worried that Alden was going to lose Pinkel to Washington. Earlier this year, the same fan base was bracing itself for the seemingly inevitable loss of Mike Anderson to Georgia or Memphis. Mike Alden is the reason they remain at Mizzou.

Additionally, I think it's sadly often overlooked just how much rehabilitation and success Alden has had on the academic side of his program. Mizzou had the #1 APR (Academic Progress Rate) in the Big 12 last year, and EVERY individual athletic team at Mizzou last year had an APR above the national average - all 20 of them. The football program graduated 23 seniors. The basketball team graduated its seniors as well. Many athletes from Mizzou are being drafted to professional sports. Mizzou was the only school in the nation last year to have a 1st round draft pick in Football, Basketball, and Baseball.
As I said before, this won't change your mind, so you'll feel however you want to on it. But if you're asking me, I think Alden has shown definite long term progress with his program.

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Mortie68
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 19:37 pm

Moe_Szyslak wrote



The comparison to NU, UT and OU, regarding football programs, is absurd. The tradition and money at each school puts them in a different league, and I wouldn't trade places with NU, straight up, today.

Alden has dramatically improved revenues, plant and overall performance. We are winning, clean, on the field and in the classroom. He's hired, in Pinkel and Anderson, character guys who win the right way. Pinkel has won 35 of the last 49 games. CMA almost made the Final Four in his third year.

Flash growth? You forgot to take your Adderall.


I totally agree with you that he has increased revenues. That is kind of my main point.

I don't have classroom stats so if you care to share the percent of grads increase across the total athletic dept as well as for football, basketball and baseball since 1998 I would appreciate it. It would be interesting to know that during the Alden years if GPA had increased but I doubt it really has.

I can't find that the Quinn Snyder fiasco lets us declare the program totally clean but it is such a BS thing compared to some programs (Baylor basketball for example) why make it an issue.

The issue across this particular board seems to be is 35/49 really the program's desired position after 9 years? My contention is probably so and there should be little bashing. If Alden is mostly a money kind of guy then what more should he be doing if the program is where most folks are content for it to be? If he is a growth (results results results)kind of guy when is it going to happen?

I am not comparing athletic depts I was comparing Athletic Directors. which I guess is an eventual comparison. I would put Deloss Dodd and his dept develpoment against those of Mike Alden's anytime. During his tenure there are 12 National Championships and 82 conference titles and a "bank load" of money. I would put the morals and character of Mack Brown and Rick Barnes, both Dodds hires, against anything anyone else has to offer. MIZZOU has money growth and occasional results growth across the all programs but pretty pale compared to some other AD.

EDIT................

BRIG

I am not disagreeing with you. My contention is MIZZOU has never been a great football "program" but has been a long term very good basketball program. I don't think that will ever change unless there is an eventual AD that buts emphasis on win, which Dodds does, and very often at that. My point also is that many on this board want the coach gone but seem to also point out the good Pinkle years as great progress. My question was/is can MA be the AD that moves MIZZOU football from 35/49 to say 44/49?

Also as to Dodds vs MA, of course no comparison due to 28 years versus 11. But the philosophies and attitudes are not the same. MA is a business man and Dodds is a former athlete and championship coach. One knows how to win the other knows how to foster a winning environment. Both are good at what they do.

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mu39
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 20:39 pm
Can anyone tell me how many ranked teams has Pinkel has beaten?
Who where they?
I think in 8 years he has only beat 3 ranked teams, KU when they were an overatted #4, and Illinois team when they were not ranked but finished ranked and a Nebraska team that was ranked around 20th but ended up out of the top 25. The Big 12 North has been very week and their non conference schedule is a joke.

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brignatious
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 20:45 pm

Mortie68 wrote

MA is a business man and Dodds is a former athlete and championship coach. One knows how to win the other knows how to foster a winning environment.


I'll be honest Mortie, I don't know what this means. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just don't understand what an AD does that's different between "fostering a winning environment" and "knowing how to win." Can you speak as to what Dodds does that makes Texas more of a winner than Mizzou? I mean, the actual things that he does to achieve this?

You mention Mack Brown. Look a little more closely at that:

-When Dodds hired Brown, Brown was one of the hottest head coaches in the country, and had just come off of back-to-back 10 win seasons at North Carolina (including a 1997 season in which they finished ranked 4th). It's not like Mack Brown was a brilliant find from Dodds. He was a great pickup, no doubt...the kind of great pickup that's like the Yankees signing CC Sabathia. Not sure how brilliant Brian Cashman is for making that move, but it was a great move for him to make.


-Prior to Mack Brown's tenure at Texas, UT had a composite record of 112-72-4, which includes the record of Fred Akers while Dodds was the AD. If you go by just the "hires" that Dodds made prior to Brown (David McWilliams and John Mackovich), his composite record was 72-54-2. That's a winning percentage of 56% over the course of 11 years. For a comparison, the composite record during Mike Alden's tenure at Mizzou is 79-64 (3 years of Larry Smith, 8+ seasons of Pinkel). That's a winning percentage of 55% over the course of 11.5 years.

When one considers that Dodds inherited a program that had been to 13 consecutive bowl games at the time he started (back when going to a bowl was limited to the top 16-20 teams in the country), and that Alden inherited a program that had been to 1 bowl game (and had 1 winning season) in the previous 15 years at the time he started, it makes the comparison of their winning % even more enlightening.


Again, I just don't get the difference between "foster a winning environment" and "knows how to win." It seems to me that Dodds and Alden have had almost equal success within their programs (if we're just looking at football) during comparative lengths of their tenures. Given what they each had to work with, I'd go as far as to say that Mike Alden has achieved MORE than DeLoss Dodds did in his first 12 years.

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brignatious
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 21:03 pm

mu39 wrote

Can anyone tell me how many ranked teams has Pinkel has beaten?
Who where they?
I think in 8 years he has only beat 3 ranked teams, KU when they were an overatted #4, and Illinois team when they were not ranked but finished ranked and a Nebraska team that was ranked around 20th but ended up out of the top 25.


2008 - Illinois (neutral site)
2008 - Northwestern (neutral site)
2007 - Nebraska
2007 - Texas Tech
2007 - kansas (neutral site - they were ranked #2 btw, it was MU @ #4)
2007 - Arkansas (neutral site)
2006 - @ Texas Tech
2005 - Nebraska
2003 - Nebraska
2003 - Texas Tech

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desert_tiger
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Post subject: Re: the faithful are making excuses, again
Posted: 10 Nov 2009 00:50 am
Why is faithful associated with accepting poor teams?

Why do a few losses equate to calling for someone's head?

The Tigers are ok in first halves this year and pitiful in second (save Bowling Green). Pinkel says it is about execution, I think he is dead wrong (I am sitting at home and not expecting anyone to call asking my advice).

I hope he is right, if not a poor second half Saturday is likely to stick a fork in this team. We will see.

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