JohnDenny
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 23:41 pm
beerster wrote
JohnDenny wrote
beerster wrote
No actually, you need to accept the public option as every sane person recognizes as being needed to combat predatory business practices of the private insurance companies.
So you're trading liberty for security.
Actually, I'm trading security for liberty. The public option will free us from an archaic method of health insurance that has become deformed from it's original concept. This current system has caused all of the problems with health care that we face. Tweeking it only enables the private insurance companies to nibble the tweaks away over time as they've been doing for years.
You'd had two many beers. Clearly Pelosi is starting to look good. Go get sober, man.
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jack reacher
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 08 Nov 2009 23:58 pm
beerster wrote
jack reacher wrote
coloradosprings wrote
drop the public option, add tort reform, and allow competition across state lines...do all that and Baraak get's to claim health care reform.
That's exactly what every sane person has been asking for from the beginning. Start here and we can work together later on if more changes need to be made.
No actually, you need to accept the public option as every sane person recognizes as being needed to combat predatory business practices of the private insurance companies.
Without your concession on that, there no use in working together as there will be no real reform. It will be business as usual.
Let's keep it like it is. Let the American people see who are not compromising. The Republicans are not. The status quo will only get worse starting next insurance year on Jan 1.
Without the public option, I'd just as soon let it ride. I have health insurance. I can ride it out for a while. Let's watch how the 10.2% unemployed hold up.
But Beer, your premise lies in the hope that the gov't can put together a competent, well-run program for those who would take it. Why do you put so much hope in these people to be fair and impartial, not to mention stay within budget constraints? I actually already know your answer to this question, but I'm holding out my own hope that you don't just drink blue kool-aid all day.
LtMarvel
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 00:28 am
jack reacher wrote
beerster wrote
jack reacher wrote
coloradosprings wrote
drop the public option, add tort reform, and allow competition across state lines...do all that and Baraak get's to claim health care reform.
That's exactly what every sane person has been asking for from the beginning. Start here and we can work together later on if more changes need to be made.
No actually, you need to accept the public option as every sane person recognizes as being needed to combat predatory business practices of the private insurance companies.
Without your concession on that, there no use in working together as there will be no real reform. It will be business as usual.
Let's keep it like it is. Let the American people see who are not compromising. The Republicans are not. The status quo will only get worse starting next insurance year on Jan 1.
Without the public option, I'd just as soon let it ride. I have health insurance. I can ride it out for a while. Let's watch how the 10.2% unemployed hold up.
But Beer, your premise lies in the hope that the gov't can put together a competent, well-run program for those who would take it. Why do you put so much hope in these people to be fair and impartial, not to mention stay within budget constraints? I actually already know your answer to this question, but I'm holding out my own hope that you don't just drink blue kool-aid all day.
There are many cases in which a government run health care law barely passes and then becomes too popular for the opposition to even attack (Medicare, Swiss Health Care, etc).
This is the real fear of the GOP. They know it is a workable plan. They fear the popularity that goes with passing it.
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jaysncards
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 00:43 am
My thoughts:
1. The article is more pessimistic than I would think reality is. I still believe that this will pass the Senate. I do think, however, that Reid will have to allow the opt-out provision to be transformed into a trigger or opt-in provision. This will bring Snowe and the moderate Democrats back into the fold (probably including Lieberman).
2. I agree that we should looking at tort reform. But not in this bill. NOT ONE example where tort refor has passed has resulted in lower insurance premiums. We have a lawsuit addiction in this country, but this is only tangentially related to the health care crisis.
3. Beerster, I'm afraid that you are missing the forest for the tress. Not only do we need to pass health care reform for the sake of those without insurance, but I believe that this is the last chance for a generation. They are certainly not going to pass it in 2010. (It's too controversial for an election year.) And, unfortunately, there is no way that House Democrats gain seats in 2010. Not passing health care would mean they would lose even more. And after losing seats, there is no way that Congress will tackle this issue with Obama in re-election mode.
4. This, by the way, is the true poltical reason that Democratic leaders want this to move so fast. Not so they can claim "the vote," but because they knwo they have a shrt window.
5. No matter what else happens, if Lieberman votes to filibuster this, he should lose his chairmanship and be kicked out of the caucus. This is the reason Obama wanted him to stay around. If he can't support Dems NOW, then he should go join the Republicans.
beerster
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 01:02 am
jack reacher wrote
beerster wrote
jack reacher wrote
coloradosprings wrote
drop the public option, add tort reform, and allow competition across state lines...do all that and Baraak get's to claim health care reform.
That's exactly what every sane person has been asking for from the beginning. Start here and we can work together later on if more changes need to be made.
No actually, you need to accept the public option as every sane person recognizes as being needed to combat predatory business practices of the private insurance companies.
Without your concession on that, there no use in working together as there will be no real reform. It will be business as usual.
Let's keep it like it is. Let the American people see who are not compromising. The Republicans are not. The status quo will only get worse starting next insurance year on Jan 1.
Without the public option, I'd just as soon let it ride. I have health insurance. I can ride it out for a while. Let's watch how the 10.2% unemployed hold up.
But Beer, your premise lies in the hope that the gov't can put together a competent, well-run program for those who would take it. Why do you put so much hope in these people to be fair and impartial, not to mention stay within budget constraints? I actually already know your answer to this question, but I'm holding out my own hope that you don't just drink blue kool-aid all day.
My premise lies in the knowledge, and not just hope, that we are our government, and that when we collectively put our minds to do big and wonderful things, we achieve them.
You may not believe this, but medicare is an outstanding program that's been put in place by our government. I was alive prior to medicare. I was able to see how old people would suffer prior to it's creation. The health of our seniors today is logarithmically better than my great grandparents and grandparents generations. There is no comparison. I don't believe that medicare is perfect. The number one complaint is not the quality of care, but of wasteful fraud.
That fraud is the result of human greed. It's caused by people optimizing their personal profits. Sometimes groups of people collude together to steal from us. That's not medicare's fault. It's thievery by white collar criminals. As a society, we are soft on punishing white collar crime.
We're typing away on the internet. Our government (us) invented the internet. We funded it's invention and perfected it through our department of defense and our research laboratories. The government forced private industry to cooperate together to create the internet. In the beginning the government had to function as the links/hubs between the various private entities because they refused to work with each other. Our government forced open cooperation. I worked on the early internet while I was in the Air Force during the early 70's.
Our government has funded the cure to both polio and small pox during my life time. We placed men on the moon, we've launched the Hubble telescope, we've visited mars, we defeated communism, and we've made it possible for guys like me to be a success, all in my lifetime. My grandparents would be astounded with what I've achieved. Our government put me through college on the GI Bill.
I don't drink the kool-aid that our government is intrinsically evil. I know that we're intrinsically good.
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BPark
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 06:27 am
stl1sportsfan wrote
"The House bill is dead on arrival in the Senate," Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said dismissively.
"Dead on arrival," huh?
Is that kinda like any hope that you would be taken seriously as a heterosexual, Ms. Graham??
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PennRamsFan
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 06:37 am
jaysncards wrote
5. No matter what else happens, if Lieberman votes to filibuster this, he should lose his chairmanship and be kicked out of the caucus. This is the reason Obama wanted him to stay around. If he can't support Dems NOW, then he should go join the Republicans.
But Lieberman is no longer a Democrat. Why should he blindly toe the company line? He no longer has to. If he truly believes that this bill is flawed in its current form, the only right thing to do is join a filibuster. Are you suggesting that he vote against his beliefs just to play a political game? I, for one, am sick and tired of political games and I hope that he votes with his heart, not because of some back room deal.
cooldog
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Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 30
Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 08:26 am
If I remember correctly health care reform with a public option was "dead", (both houses) in August, and again in September. October it's chances were slim to none, but somehow a bill was passed by the House this past Saturday that included the public option....???
Don't be counting any chickens just yet!
cooldog
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 08:39 am
Has anyone else googled this writer for the AP RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR? He doesn't seem to be exactly pro-health reform, all of his most recent articles are generally pointing out roadblocks and problems health care reform will have in passing either house! Thats interesting, but then again maybe his job is to cover the republican presepective, (this is not a shot) I mean that may really be his assignment.
jaysncards
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 09:58 am
PennRamsFan wrote
jaysncards wrote
5. No matter what else happens, if Lieberman votes to filibuster this, he should lose his chairmanship and be kicked out of the caucus. This is the reason Obama wanted him to stay around. If he can't support Dems NOW, then he should go join the Republicans.
But Lieberman is no longer a Democrat. Why should he blindly toe the company line? He no longer has to. If he truly believes that this bill is flawed in its current form, the only right thing to do is join a filibuster. Are you suggesting that he vote against his beliefs just to play a political game? I, for one, am sick and tired of political games and I hope that he votes with his heart, not because of some back room deal.
Well, he ran on a pro-health care reform platform when elected aas an Independent and has never been opposed to the idea (at least on record0 before. So this IS a bit of a switch. Let's, however, go with the idea that he really is opposed on principle. It is his own and not his state's as the public option is very popular in Conn. I can apprciate a person willing to take such a political risk. But, now I ask you, where does he actually agree with the Democrats? If he is against them on foreign policy, so against them on halth care that he won't even vote to stop debate, and has promised to once again this fall activily campaign for Republican nominees (after going hard at Obama last fall), then what is keeping him a Democrat. (I'll tell you what; Conneticut would never elect a Republican Senator!)
Maybe I was a bit harsh, though. Maybe we shouldn't kick him out of the caucus. But he sure as heck shouldn't b rewarded with a key leadership position. If you can't support the party line on SOMETHING (even a filibuster vote), then you don't deserve a committee chair.
beerster
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 10:08 am
jaysncards wrote
PennRamsFan wrote
jaysncards wrote
5. No matter what else happens, if Lieberman votes to filibuster this, he should lose his chairmanship and be kicked out of the caucus. This is the reason Obama wanted him to stay around. If he can't support Dems NOW, then he should go join the Republicans.
But Lieberman is no longer a Democrat. Why should he blindly toe the company line? He no longer has to. If he truly believes that this bill is flawed in its current form, the only right thing to do is join a filibuster. Are you suggesting that he vote against his beliefs just to play a political game? I, for one, am sick and tired of political games and I hope that he votes with his heart, not because of some back room deal.
Well, he ran on a pro-health care reform platform when elected aas an Independent and has never been opposed to the idea (at least on record0 before. So this IS a bit of a switch. Let's, however, go with the idea that he really is opposed on principle. It is his own and not his state's as the public option is very popular in Conn. I can apprciate a person willing to take such a political risk. But, now I ask you, where does he actually agree with the Democrats? If he is against them on foreign policy, so against them on halth care that he won't even vote to stop debate, and has promised to once again this fall activily campaign for Republican nominees (after going hard at Obama last fall), then what is keeping him a Democrat. (I'll tell you what; Conneticut would never elect a Republican Senator!)
Maybe I was a bit harsh, though. Maybe we shouldn't kick him out of the caucus. But he sure as heck shouldn't b rewarded with a key leadership position. If you can't support the party line on SOMETHING (even a filibuster vote), then you don't deserve a committee chair.
Lieberman should be viewed and treated as a republican. He should be removed from all democratic committees. It's time to bite the bullet on this one.
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jaysncards
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Post subject: Re: House health care bill has nowhere to go in Senate
Posted: 09 Nov 2009 10:21 am
beerster wrote
jaysncards wrote
PennRamsFan wrote
jaysncards wrote
5. No matter what else happens, if Lieberman votes to filibuster this, he should lose his chairmanship and be kicked out of the caucus. This is the reason Obama wanted him to stay around. If he can't support Dems NOW, then he should go join the Republicans.
But Lieberman is no longer a Democrat. Why should he blindly toe the company line? He no longer has to. If he truly believes that this bill is flawed in its current form, the only right thing to do is join a filibuster. Are you suggesting that he vote against his beliefs just to play a political game? I, for one, am sick and tired of political games and I hope that he votes with his heart, not because of some back room deal.
Well, he ran on a pro-health care reform platform when elected aas an Independent and has never been opposed to the idea (at least on record0 before. So this IS a bit of a switch. Let's, however, go with the idea that he really is opposed on principle. It is his own and not his state's as the public option is very popular in Conn. I can apprciate a person willing to take such a political risk. But, now I ask you, where does he actually agree with the Democrats? If he is against them on foreign policy, so against them on halth care that he won't even vote to stop debate, and has promised to once again this fall activily campaign for Republican nominees (after going hard at Obama last fall), then what is keeping him a Democrat. (I'll tell you what; Conneticut would never elect a Republican Senator!)
Maybe I was a bit harsh, though. Maybe we shouldn't kick him out of the caucus. But he sure as heck shouldn't b rewarded with a key leadership position. If you can't support the party line on SOMETHING (even a filibuster vote), then you don't deserve a committee chair.
Lieberman should be viewed and treated as a republican. He should be removed from all democratic committees. It's time to bite the bullet on this one.
He hasn't filibustered yet. Let's not do anything hasty until and unless he kills this bill. THEN political revenge can be had.
