Comments from "Prominent gays step into activist spotlight"



Dano Cooper April 27, 2009 11:11PM CST: What Neanderthal cave did you crawl out of Jim Allen? I’m a fairly conservative heterosexual man with a family married for 20 years. But that doesn’t make me an ignorant bigot who closes his eyes to tolerance in the false name of God. Almost every study of sexual orientation shows that it is inherent and not a matter of choice. Does your God create people one way and then condemn them for living as they were created?

Jen April 27, 2009 11:15PM CST: Thank you, Dano. I completely agree. I am a heterosexual ally and I think that it’s incredibly important to get people in the spotlight who have some power so maybe injustices could be eliminated. This article was much needed, although I must say, it needs an editor desperately…Mooney -> Moody? Consistency please.

J R April 27, 2009 11:17PM CST: Gays and lesbians have a right to live as they choose; they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us. “The ancient definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman has its basis in biology, not bigotry.” –CT Supreme Court Justice P. Zarella.
Informative story though.

Stevem1990 April 27, 2009 11:18PM CST: Jim, when I meet Jesus he will embrace me just as he will embrace you. I came out at work this year because some customer was starting crap about “#####.” Next thing I told him in a loud voice was, “I am gay and I don’t like your attitude.” He immediately changed his attitude and we proceeded on. As gays we have to stand up for ourselves. Let people know we are teachers, police officers, doctors and bankers. Gay Pride is just months away and we have a lot to celebrate this year.

Jcvinnie April 28, 2009 12:23AM CST: I invite my gay brothers to do some soul searching…if dad was distant or non-loving during your childhood, or if perhaps you were the victim of a child predator, it is not your fault. If, and only if, you are not happy with your current situation, there is help if you want another way out: narth.com or couragerc.net.

Gregl April 28, 2009 12:36AM CST: Wow. I never would have thought I would have seen the day where Iowa was so progressive as to allow same-sex marriage yet the bigots in Missouri only dwell on religion. Governmental benefits for committed relationships should be granted through civil unions…leave marriage to the church. If my love for my partner negatively impacts your marriage…you have issues that started well before this issue came into the forefront.

Jabcat April 28, 2009 1:27AM CST: God loves us all. We have all fallen short and need to tr4ust Jesus as our Savior. We will all face Him, either in shame and (corrective) punishment, or to hear “well done, good and faithful servant.” Practicing homosexuality is just one sin among many, but a sin nonetheless. We can think what we will, and may argue against the truth; but God has the last world. “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.” (Romans 1:26&27)

4HM April 28, 2009 2:25AM CST: So if he decides to ‘marry’ the dog in the picture instead is that still marriage? Marriage was designed for procreation; certainly you liberals can understand that. It’s about Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Sorry.

HomeoftheBlues April 28, 2009 3:03AM CST: Why in the world should I care what the Bibles says about homosexuality? We don’t make laws because God says it’s bad. That in itself is a form of religious persecution, which is why a lot of our ancestors came here to escape! Oh, and before someone comes back with Judeo-Christian morality as the basis of our laws, please tell me how many people are behind bars for coveting their neighbor’s wife. As far as marriage being for procreation, does that mean if a couple cannot have children they can’t get married? Or all married couples MUST procreate? I always thought Christianity and marriage were both based on love? Silly me.

Goat Daddy April 28, 2009 3:25AM CST: Some dude, somewhere in the Bible once said, “He who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Sounds like there are a lot of sinless posters on this here forum, or people who only interpret the Bible to meet their prejudices.

A Patriot April 28, 2009 5:08AM CST: I don’t think the majority of Americans actually have a problem with the sexual orientation of gay people, I think the real problem lays in how they (gays) go about promoting themselves. At less than one-tenth of one percent of the population, these people just need to settle down and ride out the small bumps and quit acting like the majority of the world is gay. The real majority has spoken and that needs to be accepted and respected. They have the same amount of rights as any American and no one deserves “extra” rights. Ever hear the phrase “taking things a bit too far?”

Muwashugrad April 28, 2009 6:09AM CST: There is considerable momentum behind the equality movement for our LGBT brothers and sisters. Public opinion is shifting daily and the small-minded religious right is becoming fewer in number. What I thought would never happen in my lifetime may actually happen before the end of this decade. This is due in part in Missouri to the wonderful work of PROMO, Diversity Awareness Partnership, the more than 60 welcoming communities of faith in St. Louis including Metropolitan Community Churches in St. Louis, Kansas City and Joplin. This Friday, 20 couples from St. Louis area will travel to Iowa to be legally married. Tick-tock, tick-tock; the time has come for full equality and around the country “I can hear the bells.”

St louie mo April 28, 2009 6:34AM CST: IMO there are 2 mistakes gays have made. One, using the courts to advance their agenda instead of the legislature. The very fact of getting laws passed means you have won a degree of popular support.

Two, Pride day is a freak show. It turns off the mainstream. If Mr. Donius were to be pictured next to the leather chaps crowd, the image he presents would be radically different.

---SHELLIE APRIL 28, 2009 6:49AM CST: JIM ALLEN IS SPOT ON. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WE WILL ALL FACE JESUS SOME DAY. ME FOR MY SINS AND GAYS FOR THEIRS. THE DIFFERENCE IS I GO TO JESUS SEVERAL TIMES DAILY AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS. DO THEY? AND THE POINT IS THAT WHEN YOU ASK FORGIVENESS YOU ALSO ASK FOR HIM TO REMOVE THE SIN FROM YOUR LIFE. NOT TO CONTINUE DOING IT! MARRIAGE IS NOT, I REPEAT NOT, INTENDED TO BE “A CONTRACT BETWEEN PRIVATE PARTIES AS STLSTUDENTDUDE SUGGESTS!!! IT IS BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN. PEOPLE IN THIS SOCIETY HAVE BEEN UN-CHURCHED FOR WAY TOO LONG AND THEIR MORALS (IF THEY HAVE ANY) ARE COMPLETELY OUT OF WHACK!!!! SEEK THE WORD OF GOD PEOPLE; JESUS IS COMING BACK, AND THIS TIME NO ONE WILL CROSS HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scinfi April 28, 2009 6:58AM CST: This erosion of Judeo-Christian Biblical values only amplifies the moral decay and permissiveness. Every one of us has sinned and fallen short of God’s glory, but sin calls for repentance in order to receive God’s mercy and grace through Y’shua (Jesus) the Messiah. We all need to repent and return to Godliness. –steve cohen

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 6:59AM CST: Step into the “spotlight?” Because I am straight, do I get a “spotlight?”Hahaha.

Weldon Spring Dan April 28, 2009 7:03AM CST: Of all that I’ve read here, do you know what scares me most? It’s the possibility that Jim Allen and CAPS LOCK SHELLIE could actually procreate.

Boiler_alum April 28, 2009 7:07AM CST: Is this article about the LGBT community being the victim of bias and hate crimes? If so, the only two references of injustice are from NYC in 1969 and from a subjective report from the Southern Poverty Law Center. The implication of this article is that the lack of same-sex marriage in Missouri is a hate crime. Where are the statistics that quantify the claim that LGBT individuals are the victims of hate crimes, especially in Missouri?

StL_Fan2 April 28, 2009 7:08AM CST: I’m not casting stones, I have my own sins. Regardless of the sin, I believe you should still love and accept the person, not the sin (regardless of the sin or your belief of what is or isn’t a sin). My big problem is the legislation protecting this “minority.” The story talks of an increase in “hate crimes.” If someone holds a gun to you head, whether you’re black or white, gay or straight, or whatever, then chances are that person doesn’t like you. If you fight to increase penalties for crimes because the victim was gay, then there is prejudice against a straight victim of the same crime. When people fight prejudice by increasing another prejudice, I have a problem with it. Some postings here call others bigots. How is that leading an example of acceptance? Everyone has an opinion, a faith, or an emotion. People will only respect others who don’t push their way onto others. I can’t tell you how Jesus will judge me or you. I am not Jesus. I can only speak to how I believe I’ll be judged. This is all anyone can do. I do believe I’ll be judged with forgiveness and passion if I live forgiveness and passion.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 7:11AM CST: Hey---Shellie, It sounds to me like you think Jesus’ love for us is conditional. It all depends on what form of sins each sinner happens to engage in. Are you going to face Jesus and “pass the test?” Surely you have all the self-righteous confidence in the world that you will, yet you admit to sinning several times a day despite your prayers that Jesus wash you clean. And further, you seem all “holier than thou,” particularly when it comes to others you perceive to be sinners, especially gays.

Is Jesus really “coming back?” How do you know? And how would you know, if it ever happened? It seems to me that Jesus and God are slowly disappearing, going the way of Zeus and Cronus. Maybe you know something the rest of us don’t…like Bible stories, eh? Is marriage really intended to be a “contract” solely between a man and a woman? Who says? And what happens to those who divorce? Oh, wait; their sin is washed away just by closing their eyes and saying some magic words to Jesus, right?

Dusty Roads April 28, 2009 7:18AM CST: I am going to have to chalk this one up as another reason why I no longer subscribe to the former media juggernaut known as the Post-Dispatch. It is my belief that the general public is not interested in stories that are even remotely similar to this. Sure there will be some that find this piece entertaining and putting a positive glow on an otherwise divisive subject, but like it or not the moral majority does find it reclusive and without any journalistic merit whatsoever. I look forward to reading posts after this one.

Patman12 April 28, 2009 7:20AM CST: Here’s the deal. Why do I care if you’re gay? I’m so sick and tired of gays wanting to make a big fuss over being gay and being mistreated. I do not give a crap! Grow up. It’s not like you’re going to get a prize. Do you ever hear a straight person say, “Well, I’m straight,” when they introduce themselves? If you want respect then (no pun intended) man up.

Cruzn135 April 28, 2009 7:22AM CST: Gee, I never read about Jesus saying anything to a gay person. Why do you think he doesn’t like gays, Jim?

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 7:24AM CST: Hey Scinfl, What exactly is “Godliness?” Should we stone adulterers and homosexuals? According to Brother Leviticus, that is Godliness. Should we “rain fire” upon the gay community, just as God did in the storybook about Sodom and Gomorrah?

Please, make clear to us what behavior is and isn’t “Godliness” so that we don’t make any mistakes. Since you seem to think you’re close to God and probably holier than most, then you are probably well-qualified to instruct us in the art of What God Wants. Please begin!

A tragic accident happened to an infant of one of our neighbors last summer, ending with the amputation of his right arm. Everyone has prayed for it to re-grow, but it hasn’t. What does God want from the child, its family, and the rest of us before He works a miracle and re-grows the arm? Please tell us! Prayers aren’t working and we all feel abandoned. Jesus promised that our prayers would be answered; all we had to do was ask.

Mrcampbell06 April 28, 2009 7:29AM CST: I’m not even going to read this…I’m going to pray that God deliver these people. In GOD’s eyes this is not an acceptable lifestyle and I won’t entertain it either.

Ji_08 April 28, 2009 7:33AM CST: I have to comment on a remark made earlier “our society is un-churched.” Well, what happens if we are over-churched? I’ll tell you, my friends, people are discriminated against in the name of God. In some extreme cases, people are even murdered in the name of God. I am a devout protestant who loves my Lord and savior, which makes it easy for me to accept all people for who they are; after all, who am I to judge? Now, my next issue with all of this is why do we have to keep hearing about these silly things? If I remember right, the gay rally was just to fit in and be normal…but they are doing a heck of a job to stand out. Don’t get me wrong, I love ya guys and there’s nothing wrong with it in my eye. So let’s be bigger people and save this “marriage-idea” for the more radical Christians who feel they have to mark every step with a crucifix, even though the previous steps are lined with drugs and alcohol (lol). But, like I said, who am I to judge?

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 7:34AM CST: Hey mrcampbell06, Do you think your prayer will work? What do you mean by “deliver these people?” Let us know what happens!

Mrcampbell06 April 28, 2009 7:35AM CST: dano, I truly believe God created us with free will. Doctors can make meaning out of everything. And I don’t believe these individuals are born that way. Sooner or later we are going to make excuses for criminals, too. We are going to find a similar gene in burglars and say they inherited a kleptomaniac mutated gene that was passed to them. Same for priests that mess with children, rapists and killers. They can’t help it; they were born with that urge; I pray for you all. Dano, you have a choice to believe what you believe, as do I. No response is needed. But you also have a choice rather you go to heaven or hell.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 7:35AM CST: patman123, You are right on. To the rest, come back when there is a parade.

Belizplease April 28, 2009 7:36AM CST: I have absolutely no interest in what these people’s sexuality is. I have no interest in reading an article about it. Gay, hetero, bi—this is not part of evaluating a judge, a banker, a baseball player. I lose respect for anyone that feels the need to broadcast this part of their lives. This is only important in their private lives and their immediate circle.

Muwashugrad April 28, 2009 7:40AM CST: I would like to remind you what Jesus said about homosexuality…

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 7:42AM CST: Hey mrcampbello6, Do you think God knows all? If he does, then everything is already certain and no one has free will.

Think! If God knows that you are going to commit a sin, then how could you possibly choose to do anything else? You can’t! Because God already knows you won’t!

On the other hand, maybe God lacks the “infinite knowledge” that some claim he has, in which case, maybe we do have some freedom of choice. But it’s only possible if God does not know it all.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 7:43AM CST: belizplease, right on.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 7:48AM CST: And what gets me, is this somehow has become a “cause.” What? Is being straight a “cause?” Is being bi a “cause?” Get over yourselves…PLEASE.

Lava Dog April 28, 2009 7:49AM CST: Sinners, let’s remember that the Bible also says not to eat port, shellfish, or wear clothes made of wool mixed with linen. Let’s not risk our souls by eating shrimp wrapped in bacon; or, if we pick and choose, let’s be tolerant of other people’s choices. Interestingly enough, the Bible says nothing against lesbians.

J R April 28, 2009 7:51AM CST: I disagree with gays and lesbians redefining marriage for the rest of us, though they have a right to live as they please.
It would be interesting to hear about this issue from people who used to be gay but no longer practice. If the P-D wants to do a thought-provoking and readable article, that would be it.

Ready2repent April 28, 2009 7:53AM CST: I passionately disagree with homosexuality; Leviticus 18:22 and many other passages. However, I have many sins myself and I work hard to show respect to gay co-workers. It’s too bad our society is concerned with immediate gratification and we cannot understand something greater is waiting for those who fervently pursue the word of the Gospel!

Bantam weight April 28, 2009 8:06AM CST: I think it’s funny that heterosexual people with a divorce rate of 50% and more than likely another 25% who wish they could get divorced but can’t for one reason or another bother to worry if gay people should get married. Look in the mirror first and if you find no fault, then throw the first stone.

W.Champion April 28, 2009 8:06AM CST: Hi, I am w.champion and I am heterosexual. I guess this is what it is coming to. I truly do not care about a person’s sexuality. But, if this is how you are going to define yourself, I say you are not a very deep person. Give me more. It is ridiculous that there is a story about a successful gay man in the paper. I know why the Post is going under now.

Ksbunten April 28, 2009 8:07AM CST: I have taken the time to read these posts (morbid curiosity). Most of this reminds me of “a young man from Nantucket:” self-satisfied, but ultimately fruitless, even disturbing to the observer. Please remember you live in the United States of America, and by virtue of that you have the privilege to publicly voice (foist?) your opinions on others, regardless of how narrow and condemning. That alone has me thanking my Higher Power whenever I think of it. Respect others BECAUSE they are different, not because they are the same as you.

WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot April 28, 2009 8:11AM CST: That guy has a nice home.

D. Walker April 28, 2009 8:12AM CST: One must certainly be careful in choosing Susan Block as their attorney in domestic issues because she certainly is capable of stabbing one in your back and not representing you in your best interests depending on whom the opposition is.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 8:12AM CST: Hey J R, Just curious, are you married? How have the gays and lesbians redefined marriage for you? Are you now more committed to your spouse? Or less? Are you now more willing to consider a same sex spouse, or partner for an affair? How has marriage changed for you?

Afraid I can’t help you with gays no longer practicing, though, Guy.

D. Walker April 28, 2009 8:13AM CST: CORRECTION: Capable of stabbing one in {their} back.

BabyBoo April 28, 2009 8:14AM CST: Roman’s 1:26 & 27 talks more to adultery than homosexuality implying that if they were not committing adultery, it would have been okay. Please note that this was also attributed to an apostle that many scholars think might have been homosexual and trying to fight it making them more antagonistic. In Sodom and Gomorra, the towns’ people were punished for adultery, rape, robbery and corruption that reached into their government, not especially for same-sex relationships. Jesus says love your neighbor as you do yourself and I am ashamed of all of the religious bigotry in this comment section. Also, gays should have the right to marry if the United States is indeed based on separation of church and state because there are no non-religious reasons to prohibit a private contract between individuals of the same sex if they want to enter into a marriage agreement. If the courts can say no to this, does that mean that they can step in and say that you can’t sell your house to another person? Are they going to start saying that if you have not had children, you must divorce after 5 years? Are they going to dissolve your marriage because one of you committed adultery? Are they going to start saying who can marry whom in heterosexual marriages? This is a slippery slope and religion needs to be left out of it.

Afletch2 April 28, 2009 8:24 AM CST: If any of you call yourselves “good Christians,” you would accept gays (and EVERYONE else) as they are. Aren’t you supposed to try to be like Jesus? Remember that he took everyone in? Regardless of their race or religion or anything else? Come on people! I’m straight, but I’m an ally and I know that EVERYONE deserves equal rights under the law.
Anyway, I am so glad that more prominent gays are getting involved because in the past, I feel like they just didn’t care about their counterparts, that they were just happy not having their world disturbed by coming out to the entire public. If anything is going to change, more gays need to let people know they’re here.

Stldoc April 28, 2009 8:38AM CST: Religious people, please use your head. There are THOUSANDS of different religions and they all claim completely different stories and beliefs. And of those thousands of religions, every one of them are just different fabrications by our ancestors to help them try and make sense of the world. Nothing more. You’re foolish if you believe that what you happened to have been told growing up is anywhere close to what “God wants.” If the Gods were actually talking, that would be one thing; but they are not. You are following men who have no more insight than you or I about what God actually would want. Stop allowing these men to tell you what is right or wrong and how to judge.

Krnflakgrl April 28, 2009 8:28AM CST: Religion breeds bigotry, hatred and prejudice…period.

TylerDurden April 28, 2009 8:29AM CST: I thought the comments on the article on interracial dating were bad, but the comments on this article really take the cake.

Hmmm…Srsly? April 28, 2009 8:32AM CST: No society will last where its citizens—straight or gay—“prefer open relationships with the possibilities of many partners” (quoted from the gay stlstudentdude). Ask any sociologist. I think this is at the heart of society in general not accepting—or certainly not promoting—the gay lifestyle.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 8:33AM CST: Let’s face it, the whole argument is over marriage and I have never needed a piece of paper to confirm any conviction. If you need a piece of paper to validate your belief, then your belief is not much of an issue.

Hermosagirl April 28, 2009 8:40AM CST: OMG. Why is this a story? On one hand, gays say they don’t want you to treat them differently because they are gay, then have to make sure you don’t forget that they are gay. Spare me. Why do we need to know this???!! Please don’t notice I’m gay—unless I want to bring it up, then I don’t want you to forget it. Enough already. I’m fine with this guy being gay, but I don’t care, and resent him going on about it.

Flamer April 28, 2009 8:41AM CST: Wow, hasn’t this story brought out the best in all of us! Earlier in a post someone made a comment that the gay community should not be using the courts to push their agenda and rather the legislatures and voting populace. I would like to remind that persona that MANY years ago women were not allowed to vote and it was by judicial command that this was changed. Then came along the right of blacks (African Americans, if you prefer) to be allowed to vote. TRULY, do you thing the general populace of this country would have voted for such approval? There are times that our courts MUST step in and make a judgment call (every pun intended) that helps our society to take a step forward away from fear mongering and prejudice. The “institution of marriage” is a melding of government AND religion. Yet our government recognizes marriages done in various settings; courtrooms, cruise ships, etc. We have to stop placing religious dogma about marriage above the governmental legal recognition of a contract between two consenting adults. As for the idiot who made the comment about Mr. Donius marrying his dog, just stop it already! I must admit a somewhat sullen emotion as I write this response; I can see where prejudice is certainly alive and well here in good ol’ St. Lou. How sad!

Ready2repent April 28, 2009 8:42AM CST: As a proud conservative Christian it is my responsibility to demonstrate the values Jesus emphasized by showing love to others. All government is based on religion; it’s how our civilization started. We must understand that if we place all focus on our selfish desires, we will fail to celebrate His glory!

Sharkbreath April 28, 2009 8:45AM CST: God or no God, gays want to change our country; change the laws, etc. How would you feel if someone was trying to change your world? It’s not about tolerance, why can’t they just have civil unions? No! They want to change even the definition of marriage.

MilMan April 28, 2009 8:47AM CST: Gays are not born that way. It is simple genetics, folks. There is not a “gay” gene. If there were, it would be a recessive gene, correct? No way it would be a dominant gene. Since two gay men and/or two gay women cannot procreate, this recessive gene could not become dominant, producing a “gay” person. Therefore, if gayness were genetic, there would be no gays at all because they would die out. The gene could not become dominant. Gay is a choice. Homosexuality is a sin and an abomination. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament state this clearly. Homosexual men have one of the lowest life spans of all men. There is a reason. I have counseled several gay men and women and WITHOUT EXCEPTION every single one of them was either sexually, physically or emotionally abused, mostly by a parent or stepparent. This is a fact. People need to stop making arguments based on emotion and they need to start looking at the sciences and the facts. STDs, early death, domestic violence, all have higher instances for homosexuals. These are facts. Don’t waste your time debating this, look it up, study. As for gay marriage…marriage is a religious institution ordained by the same God who says homosexuality is a sin. Why would gays want anything to do with marriage and a God who condemns, YES…CONDEMNS…their behavior? This is not rational. Gays need to make up their mind whether they want God and His stuff or not. Once again, study. If you want to live together, go ahead…it is your life gay people, but don’t thing that you are ever big enough to change God. It can be legalized, promoted, accepted, whatever. But, the God of the universe sees it as an abomination and He will not recognize it. That Is all that matters. There is no such thing as “gay marriage” and there never will be. Accept it.

Ksbunten April 28, 2009 8:49AM CST: To BabyBoo: Amen! And again I say Amen! To Afletch2: I am grateful for your first paragraph! Thanks. As to the second, it is far more complicated than that they “just don’t care about their counterparts.” And often people are quick to accuse one of “internalized homophobia” for no co-signing all the elements of the celebration that is “Gay Pride Weekend.” To me, it is not unlike asking Mr. and Mrs. Obama to voice support and agreement not only with, say the career of Oprah, but also the careers of R. Kelly or DMX or Lil’ Kim. Don’t question the misogyny, greed, anti-white sentiments and violence—otherwise you may be seen as a racist. Just smile and nod as the float passes. I think the point here is that the so-called gay-lez-bi community is far more complicated (thank God!) than is typically portrayed in the media. Playing to narrow stereotypes may sell papers or get attention—hell, it may even make some members of the community feel more free—but it does little to inform, educate, change or keep others from “treading on me.”

Bluenatic April 28, 2009 8:50AM CST: All of you who have a problem with the probably think that black people and women shouldn’t be able to vote, right? Haven’t we learned from the past that it is wrong to discriminate due to perception? I’m a hetero male who thinks we need to proceed into the future with equal rights for the gay community as well as equal rights for single fathers!
Donnajgamache April 28, 2009 8:52AM CST: Mr. Donius is an educated, well-respected and successful businessman. He is also a generous philanthropist. I know that from reading the Post-Dispatch over the years, which is one reason why I keep my subscription. I learn things.

I expected bigoted, homophobic comments here, especially by the usual people hiding behind false names, and that’s exasperating. But, I’m as exasperated by the people who don’t want to read anything that doesn’t fit their current world view (i.e., don’t want to learn anything, and calm down now: knowledge isn’t agreement. Knowledge is neutral).

I’m also saddened by the people who use the Bible and the US Constitution to defend their narrowness. If you’re a bigot, just say so! You don’t need third-part endorsement for that position from these venerated documents. Besides, your knowledge of them is lacking.

The Old Testament was replaced by the New Testament, my Christian neighbors, so get with the program. There’s only one rule in the New Testament, and hate is the opposite of the new rule. The Constitution is there to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Have you actually ever read the documents? I don’t mind a good debate, but I get no satisfaction from listening to a debate where so many people lack accurate information and reject knowledge.

The churches teach the Bible. The Post-Dispatch might consider an extended and repeating series on the Constitution!

Ted April 28, 2009 8:55AM CST: I didn’t know Jesus was so intolerant. Why do conservatives preach hatred and intolerance?? I don’t get it.

You can’t be serious April 28, 209 8:56AM CST: I love all the ‘they want special rights’ nonsense that is being drubbed up here. ‘Special rights’ is code for ‘we don’t want those people (whoever that may be) to have the same rights we do.’ They can’t say that outright, so they hide it under cover of ‘special rights.’ We ain’t buying it. Read the 9th Amendment to the Constitution before espousing discrimination.

Justtruth April 28, 2009 9:01AM CST: Jim Allen: While I agree that they will have to face Jesus someday, why should this story have not been written? I strongly disagree that “Gays” are less human than we are, and I strongly agree that it’s a sin. However, does that mean God loves them less? No way, man. Where did Jesus go first? To the “sinners.” He is called a “friend of sinners.” If we point fingers at people who are homosexual, and scream slurs or tell them how bad they are, how can we possibly tell them God loves them? God does accept them the way they are; were you perfect when you came to Christ? I highly doubt it, but He changed you, didn’t He? Just like He can and will change anyone, including homosexual people who come to Him. Will they be “heterosexual” immediately? I don’t know; did you stop sinning immediately, Jim Allen? I still catch myself. Christ changes everyone; you, me and any “homosexual” that comes to Him (truly, with a repentant heart). Dude, where’s the love? I am not saying gay is right and should be accepted, I am saying it’s Jesus’ call and if they truly come to Him, He’ll take care of the rest. Let Him.

Seewon1 April 28, 2009 9:01AM CST: I believe Jim Allen is the one who will find himself in the fiery pits due to his judgment of others. To Donius I say, “to thine own self be true.” It’s just a shame and obscene that one has to fight to be the way God made them in order to have basic civil rights.

STLgasm April 28, 2009 9:02AM CST: The rhetoric from the Jesus Patrol is downright scary. Get a life. I can’t help but think you nutty God-fearing zealots might have other reasons for feeling so threatened. The world is full of all types of people. Live and let live.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 9:08AM CST: Donna, I agree and if people did use their real names out here, they would be more considerate.

City Resident April 28, 2009 9:11AM CST: 4HM, if marriage is for procreation only, then are married heteros without kids sinners too? I’m straight, but I’m also proud to have friends who happen to be gay. How, and or why, would it be anyone else’s business who someone chooses to love? Why do so many people think it their business to dictate to others what their sexuality should be? Why do Christians express themselves with so much hate on this issue? Jesus Christ preached more about the second commandment (Love thy neighbor as thyself) than any other. You can find no teaching of Christ addressing the issue of homosexuality, but many of His teachings addressing the issues of judging others and forgiveness. If it wasn’t an issue for the Christ, then why is it the paramount issue for Christians? If you don’t think being gay is okay, then don’t be gay.

MilMan April 28, 2009 9:12AM CST: Donnajgamache, The New Testament did not replace the Old Testament…if fulfilled it. Also, I know people are uncomfortable with God being judgmental, that is partly the churches fault for always teaching God as a loving, old grandfatherly type. The Bible says God is also: HOLY, JUST, ANGRY, VENGEFUL, JEALOUS…these are mentioned as His attributes. God ordered the slaughter of men, women, children and animals when people would not obey His commands. Yes, God is love, forgiveness, etc., but He is to be feared and held in reverence. If you believe that God is good, then you must understand that it is because of this goodness that He must be just. Like I said, God is not going to change, the Bible is solid, infallible, without error and God breathed, homosexuals cannot change that. Good book: Shocked By the Bible by Joe Kovacs; better book: The Bible.

T8ersalad April 28, 2009 9:12AM CST: I’m a business owner and I don’t care what they look like or what their sexual orientation is as long as their money is green, they’re fine with me and I’ll do business with them. But, since this article was obviously written from a biased perspective and quickly migrated to the gay “marriage” issue I’ll just say this: We separate ourselves by defining us as either heterosexual or homosexual or, whatever else. So, why do homosexual couples have a problem when the majority of the population would like to define “marriage” as a bonding of two heterosexual couples and allow that same bonding of homosexual couples to be called something else? Make up a word and call it that. Garriage, harriage, whatever. Just make up another word to define it.

Drawchaser April 28, 2009 9:13AM CST: Jesus was gay. He never had a girlfriend or wife. He spent a lot of time hanging out with 12 dudes.

RomansOne April 28, 2009 9:13AM CST: muwashgrad: Actually, Jesus states that marriage is only between a man and a woman in Mt. 19. And, He upheld the OT law in Mt. 5, which includes moral statements against homosexuality. So, please don’t try to paint a picture of Jesus as supporting homosexual acts. Mydogshakespeare: You might find Molinistic arguments interesting—they offer a plausible explanation about how God can have foreknowledge of events while still allowing free will. Afletch2: Jesus did NOT accept everyone’s sin. He loved the person, but required them to repent. Please don’t distort what He taught. KRNFLKGRL: ALL ideas can breed bigotry, hatred and prejudice, not just religious ones. It depends on what those ideas teach, and whether or not people follow or distort those teachings. BabyBoo: You are wrong. The Romans verses you cited have nothing to do with adultery; they are about homosexuality. As for Paul being homosexual, that’s nonsense that only a fringe group of thinkers might believe; there is no historical evidence to support the claim. Donnajgamache: The NT did not replace the OT, it builds upon it. And, actually, there are two rules in the New Testament that underlie everything else (including the OT)—see Matt. 12. Both rules are love for people—neither is love for their actions. STLgasm: You say “live and let live,” but I doubt you would want to let someone who enjoys killing people run around and do that. So you obviously have some standard you want others to live by. You just don’t like the Biblical standard, which is fine. But, please allow others to have their own view, too. That’s what tolerance is about—allowing others to voice their opinions without calling them names. Concerning the story itself, he seems like a great guy, but just because someone is successful and nice doesn’t validate that person’s sexual lifestyle.

EastCoastStLouisan April 28, 2009 9:14AM CST: Ted: Why are all people named Ted idiots? Okay, maybe that is not true, but me making that statement is no different than you stating that (all) conservatives preach hate and intolerance. This is obviously a sensitive issue for many on both sides with varying levels of passion about right or wrong. People on both sides should be respectful of others’ opinions, and debate with facts, not personal attacks that undermine your points. I guess my big question with all of this ongoing hoopla sustained by the Post-Dispatch is is Marriage a Right or a Privilege? If it is truly a

Constitutionally protected right, then all American citizens should reserve that right. If marriage, invented b “the church” is defined as the union of a man and a woman, then why would homosexuals want to participate in a marriage? In order for all to benefit equally, insurance, hospital visitation, etc. rules should be changed to include partners in homosexual unions and that would put the argument to bed. Or would the homosexual community continue to push the issue because the real reason for all the attention is not really for equality, but to keep the spotlight and push personal agenda? Opinions?

Justtruth April 28, 2009 9:14AM CST: Stlgasm: While I understand you think “God-fearing zealots” are homophobes, please see it from our point of view. We know this to be a sin; sin leads to hell; any “real” Christian should jump out of his skin at the thought of ANYONE going to hell and thereby warn them. Some people don’t have the tact to express what to say in a constructive way, which benefits, and doesn’t destroy. Some people do hide their homophobia behind Christ, and some people just type what they want on here, to make others look bad. Justtruth.net

Mat April 28, 2009 9:19AM CST: MilMan: Your genetic argument is seriously flawed. What about an x-linked allele? In other words, what if it’s “mom’s fault?”

Donna: Thanks for bringing up valid points using a measured tone.

To those who think that gay people want to ‘redefine’ marriage, I’m curious to hear how granting gays this fundamental right has any effect on anyone else’s marriage. Marriage is only as sanctified as married people make it. STL has no lack of marriages between people who are patently unfit for responsibility.

Congratulations to Mr. Donius for recognizing that the public needs to be aware that the homosexual community includes all kinds of people and for throwing his hat in the ring.

As for the Christians, it’s important to understand that being a Christian necessarily means choosing which parts of the Bible should be believed and which parts should not. If you disagree, you don’t know your Bible. Congratulations to the Christians who are able to overcome the temptation to judge others; it’s a difficult thing to do.

MilMan April 28, 2009 9:20AM CST: RomansOne: Right on! People are misquoting the Bible and misrepresenting Jesus left and right here.

Bobbyd97 April 28, 2009 9:23AM CST: The funniest of all these comments are all these religious people going overboard with their ranting and raving. When you say things like “Everyone will face the Lord Jesus someday…,” you make yourself sound so weird. I picture one of those idiots on a cable access channel at 3 a.m. Do us all a favor and keep it to yourself.

Justtruth April 28, 2009 9:25AM CST: It’s funny; when a post like this comes out, everyone is a theological mastermind. Justtruth.net

MilMan April 28, 2009 9:26AM CST: Max: X-linked allele typically causes hemophilia, not homosexuality. If it were genetic, it would be recessive, no matter the debate. Homosexuals cannot procreate with each other; they would die out within a few generations.

STL 1981 April 28, 2009 9:28AM CST: Bill Donius is a friend of mine and, like Bill, I’ve been “out” for a couple of decades, now live in Ladue with my partner, surrounded by great neighbors. Anyone who reads this and starts talking about the Bible doesn’t get it. The Bible has nothing to do with what our government decides. I’m not Christian and it doesn’t apply to me, and anyone in my government who tries to bludgeon me and others with their Bible needs to read up on Thomas Jefferson. Is imposing your religion on others really the right thing to do? Wait, don’t answer that. Just can it and keep it to yourself.

Freedom4 April 28, 2009 9:29AM CST: I applaud Bill for stepping up to the cause. I am a straight, traditional family guy, but I think that even if Americans are not ready to give homosexuals the title of marriage, we should give them all of the rights awarded to married couples as a civil union. Our government should be to protect the rights of people and allowing homosexual couples to visit each other in the hospital, pass on their assets in the event of death, or take care of their partners just as any other loving couple would want to is just fair treatment. Look at how many straight couples have made a mockery of marriage with the high divorce rates and infidelity. I believe that many loving homosexual couples would bring more meaning to marriage than many heterosexual couples do. I think that more respectful and stand up homosexuals like Bill need to take over the role of activist so that the extremist fringes of the part like Perez Hilton stop making them look bad. He is not trying to force his sexuality on anyone as people like Perez do. He only wants equal treatment as we should all strive for in this country.

Flamer April 28, 2009 9:31AM CST: Hey MilMan, You comment that you’ve counseled “several” gays and lesbians has caught my attention. Just HOW is it that you qualified to “counsel?” Is it by education at an accredited university that teaches psychology OR by chance is it through some other source (divinity)? Frankly, if you’re actually a certified counselor and/or PhD, I’d kind of like to know you actual name so as to never refer anyone to you for counseling. You sound FULL of hate and anger toward people about whom you’ve made GROSS general statements. I TOO have counseled gays and lesbians, WAY more than “several,” by the way. My counseling numbers don’t exactly jive with yours. MOST of my patients express that they were indeed never sexually abused and felt like from their earliest knowledge of sexuality that their sexual attraction was directed to that of their same sex. You made several statements of “fact” that I cannot find in ANY current literature. Fact is most, if not all, books on “current” psychological behavior state “fact” as most of these people are indeed “born” gay and not coaxed gay. Read your modern literature, MilMan. Funny how “experts” differ!

MilMan April 28, 2009 9:35AM CST: STL1981: You hit the nail on the head! Marriage has nothing to do with government. Marriage is a God ordained institution, not government ordained. You can’t have it both ways. If you don’t want God in government, keep government out of marriage. God’s business.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 9:37AM CST: Anyone who claims they “know” God is a liar.

MilMan April 28, 2009 9:41AM CST: Flamer: If you have counseled them, then perhaps they are not well adjusted? There is no hate on my part, just pity for people who are lost and confused. Some know it and they counsel with people like you and me; some don’t know it. Truth sometimes hurts. And, Flamer, I believe that I am the worst of all sinners; I am just forgiven.

STLgasm April 28, 2009 9:41AM CST: RomansOne”STLgasm: You say “live and let live,” but I doubt you would want to let someone who enjoys killing people run around and do that. So you obviously have some standard you want others to live by.” What about “live and let live” don’t you understand? Killers, by definition, are exempt because they KILL. Comparing homosexuals to murderers is disgusting. I am secure enough in my heterosexuality that I could not care less what my neighbor’s sexual orientation is.

Mat April 28, 2009 9:44AM CST: MilMan: Wow, was that a serious response to the genetic question? I’m guessing you read a flawed argument somewhere and really liked it, probably because it reached the conclusion you favor. I promise you’re wrong in suggesting that the idea of a genetic basis for homosexuality has been foreclosed. This is a good example of what another poster wrote about being more interested in argument than in knowledge. I didn’t come up with the principles of genetics; I just learned about them (though I’m no expert). But, I do feel a responsibility to have some idea what I’m talking about before I propose a technical argument. If you’re going to invoke science, you really should abide by the rules of science. In any event, I’m sorry to say that your argument—insofar as it is an argument—is ridiculous.

Something to think about: If it were really as simple as you propose, don’t you think the issue would have been settled by now, and the genetic argument taken off the table? The scientific community would be bound by their own rules to accept what the empirical data indicate.

I have no illusions as to whether MilMan will take this to heart; he seems unwilling to regard anything that threatens his views. But, I hope that anyone interested in the debate will consider these points.

Ted Haggard April 28, 2009 9:47AM CTS: As a man with a lot of personal experience on this issue, I’d like to be heard. I’m not gay. I do enjoy visiting with male prostitutes for sex and illegal drugs and have occasionally overstepped boundaries when dealing with troubled youth looking for spiritual guidance. But, I’m not gay. Jesus Christ is my personal savior and I will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven when I’m called because I always ask for God’s forgiveness after I engage in sexual immorality. As the leader of the New Life Church, a Christian mega-church in Colorado Springs, and as the former head of the National Association of Evangelists, I have supported a war against homosexuality and abortion. I admit the two seem mutually exclusive of each other but, nonetheless, as a pastor I know more about what Jesus wants than you do. Even though the New Testament doesn’t mention homosexuality, I know what Jesus wants and expects. Homosexuality is covered extensively in the Old Testament (the Jew portion) and I’m sure Jesus just didn’t have time to get to it back then. In closing, I’d like you all to remember the most important commandment of all. It’s not one of the Ten Commandments, but it is first on the list of Pastor Ted’s commandments. It is: Thou shalt do as Pastor Ted says, not do as Pastor Ted does. This is my first and greatest commandment! Follow it or else.

Jumpleft April 28, 2009 9:47AM CST: When reading these comments, I hope people read them with some skepticism. There are posters here claiming to be gay (and straight, too) that may or may not be. I find it doubtful that stlstudentdude is gay as he claims. He writes, “Believe me, gays have it fine and it really is a turn off to gays to see people like Mr. Donius call for equality when he knows very well that most gays prefer open relationships with the possibilities of many partners.” I don’t know any gay person who has or would say this, or who thinks that gays have it fine. A wolf in sheep’s clothing, indeed. And Moderator, before you take this post down, please note there are much more inflammatory comments already posted (“let’s stop the personal attacks”).

STL 1981 April 28, 2009 9:47AM CST: MilMan, You’re wrong when you say “Marriage is a God ordained institution, not government ordained.” Did you forget that any man and woman can go to the courthouse and get married—government only—no church? If your church doesn’t want to marry gays, it doesn’t have to, ever. Just like it doesn’t have to marry any couple where one member is outside the church’s religion.

Stlgypsy April 28, 2009 9:51AM CST: People are people regardless of color, race, creed, sexual orientation…we’re brothers & sisters, NOT judges.

Lajr5 April 28, 2009 9:51AM CST: Jumpleft: I could not agree more. There was a guy posting here last week who claimed to be in a bi-racial relationship spouting some of the most bigoted racial comments.

Foxxydrummer April 28, 2009 9:53AM CST: It’s all about the money. Legalize gay marriage and their partners are entitled to the spouses’ health insurance to cover AIDS related diseases.

Flamer April 28, 2009 9:54AM CST: OOHH Pastor Ted: You, my friend, are RIGHT ON TARGET! Still laughing ridiculously hard. OH, and MilMan: I’ve got my answer; just as I thought. NO PROBLEM worrying about getting a referral…I just lost my pad!

Walter Scholl April 28, 2009 9:54AM CST: Realizing that homosexuality is a sin and renouncing it only comes from a supernatural change, so I’m not going to debate. But, I again see that “tolerance” is a “one-way street” for those who vehemently attack those who hold Biblical/moral views on this issue.

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 9:56AM CST: I applaud Mr. Donius for coming out in order to fight for a right that should already be. Of course, I’m always dismayed to see the self-proclaimed religious zealots yammering about the Bible and Jesus. Yet I do find humor in some posts I have read stating “no historical fact” in reference to an apostle possibly being gay. There are plenty of things in the Bible not supported by “historical fact.” I feel many on here don’t even have a basic understanding about how the Bible was written. I have to ask, do any of you who so fervently reference the Bible as evidence against gay marriage read the Bible in its original languages (that’s right, it’s written in more than one)? I suspect not. As someone who can read another language fluently, I can absolutely tell you there are subtleties when interpreting another language. Do any of you have any idea what it means to be reading and citing the King James version? Probably not. Lastly, marriage is a state government issue; it’s about property rights and a whole list of other rights that follow. It’s hard enough to find love in this world, why deny the right of a union to those who have?

Ucity88 April 28, 2009 9:58AM CST: Yep, as with most stories here on STLtoday, the comments show how backwards and bigoted St. Louis still is.”
This is why it will always be a 3-tier city. Racist, classist, xenophobic, homophobic and always left behind to stay stagnant and oppressive.

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 10:01AM CST: Let’s face it…every fringe group out there wants to destroy traditional lifestyles because they hate traditional people. They hate because they hate themselves and they live in anguish and dismay.

They are obsessed with destroying same race, opposite sex relationships and the children those relationships produce, yet struggle to have all these things for themselves.

No one cares what gays do anymore and that drives them crazy. They have to have conflict or be the victim of some sort of oppression to be happy. Ever notice how the far left has a new demographic of ‘victims’ every time you turn around?

Did anyone notice in the stupid story how they fear being victims of physical abuse??? Who has ever known anyone who has physically abused a gay person? Who the hell cares enough to even look cross-eyed at them just like any other person you see on the street?

If you take anything from this story, take away the fact that regular, honest, hardworking heterosexuals (especially white males) are oppressors, abusers and any other type of predator you can name and all of these fringe groups are perpetual victims.

Out of this comes the ‘white guilt’ movement which most white women will fall for even if it contradicts the very fiber of their being or puts them at risk of physical danger or moral victimizations (date a black to prove their progressiveness, take off their clothes at parties, get drunk beyond belief and make fools of themselves).

This is all out of the same playbook.

Jumpleft April 28, 2009 10:04AM CST: I also feel it necessary to respond to MilMan’s initial post. I can believe that the “several” gay men and women he has “counseled” may have been abused at some point. I have no idea if several means three people, or thirty. However, to project your personal experience onto the ENTIRE gay population is quite a leap! MilMan states that “I have counseled several gay men and women and WITHOUT EXCEPTION every single one of them was either sexually, physically or emotionally abused, mostly by a parent or stepparent. This is a fact.” Well, I am gay, and have never been sexually, physically, or emotionally abused. Not by a parent, a stepparent (which I don’t have), nor anyone else. I have wonderful parents and a wonderful family (I am blessed in that regard). Maybe being abused as a child is part of the reason people seek counseling in the first place.

Mat April 28, 2009 10:04AM CST: LOL @usernametaken: You just pulled off the improbable. Your comment was more entertaining than disturbing. I’m still laughing.

Just for fun, do you know anyone with swine flu? No? Must not exist.

Mona Lisa April 28, 2009 10:04AM CST: We need to have a law in Missouri that nobody can lose their job or living quarters because of sexual orientation.

Shelley Powers April 28, 2009 10:11AM CST: I knew about gays being explicitly denied the right to marry in this state, but not that they can actually be fired or evicted from their homes. This, in this day and age? How embarrassing that a people in a state who seemingly pride themselves on individuality would do everything in their power to oppress those who differ from them.
Not only bigots, but hypocrites, too.

I only glanced through the comments, enough to get some glimmer of hope from those whose minds and hearts are open. But the rest—close minded, bigots, homophobes, afraid of any kind of difference, and using religion as a way of validating their own fears and hatreds.

If I were looking to build a business in St. Louis or Missouri, I would come to this site and read these comments, and most likely decide to build a business elsewhere. Why build a business for the future in the midst of people who celebrate an ignorant bigotry from the past? Who call themselves Christian, but then befoul the term by their actions?

More power to Mr. Donius, and I hope he is aware that most straights in this area most likely believe in live and let live, at a minimum, and are not the confused, sorry, sad little souls who pour forth their bigoted spew under pseudonyms in this publication. Do not be discouraged, and thank you for your activism. What you do isn’t important just for the gays, it’s important for all of us, if we’re going to truly have a decent society someday.

P.S. To the commenter calling themselves Ted Haggard, big hugs for exposing the hypocrisy of the religious anti-gay bigots with more humor than I can dredge up today.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 10:12AM CST: Well, at the end of the day, aren’t we all thrilled to know what everyone’s sexual preference is…to quote my inner-self, “who gives a rat’s rear…”

Shelley Powers April 28, 2009 10:14AM CST: P.S. Excuse the typos, including homophones, which should be homophobes.

And yes, St. Louis P-D, you should write stories like these.

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 10:19AM CST: Just look at Shelley’s comments…victimization, bigotry, oppression. Sheesh, was a sad song playing in the background when you were typing up this drivel?
You love being a victim and you love having a non-existent power to fight. That’s it.

Socialsitsforobama April 28, 2009 10:21AM CST: I cannot thank people like Bill Donius and Paul Ardekani enough for the work they have done to finally step out in the spotlight and fight for their cause! Bravo!

Scottinalton April 28, 2009 10:23AM CST: ucity88 is right on the mark. St. Louis is so smugly complacent to just rest on its laurels, look at its “glorious” past, and be ignorant of the present or the future. It certainly shows that we are one of the least educated major cities in America. Racist, homophobic, and all sorts of prejudices which are the hallmark of its ignorance. Stifling conservatism and ignorance that rages here, choking our growth and prosperity. As a St. Louisan who recently moved away, it has become even more clear how screwed up the collective mentality that St. Louisans as a whole have acquired, as we have mutated further and further away from the progressive norm. It is so unhealthy. We attract so few new residents from other areas that we have become isolated like some backward hillbilly village that still believes that slavery should be legal and doesn’t realize how out of whack our beliefs are. The comments by some here saying that gays are asking for special rights by wanting to have what others take for granted simply show how ignorant we are. The straight, WASP male doesn’t need laws protecting him because he’s not discriminated against. If Mr. WASP were fired simply because he’s a WASP, he’d be at the front of the line shouting for protection, just like any human would be. Saying “be a man” in response to getting brutally beaten for being gay is simply ignorant. Congrats to Mr. Donius for being man enough to be in this article. Shame on everyone saying he should shut up. Wake up, St. Louis…it’s the 21st century, not 1904.

Cherith Cutestory April 28, 2009 10:25AM CST: I am an air force veteran who served proudly from 1989 to 1992 and recently went to purchase a home with my partner (yes, I am gay). Even though we both make over $150,000 combined, we had to jump through extra hoops to get my VA mortgage loan approved because the Veteran’s Administration will only consider the veteran’s income and spouse. Well, since my partner and I can’t get married, that meant tons of extra paperwork and hassle.
We’re two people committed to each other who are living under the same roof. I don’t want “extra” rights. I want the same rights as everyone else.

MilMan April 28, 2009 10:26AM CST: Tolerance is only a one-way street for gays. Ask Miss America. Gays are the most intolerant people that ever walked the face of this earth. They want to beat you over the head with it, shove it down your throat, shove it down the throat of your children, invade your government, church, home. Gays want special treatment and it is the constant intolerance and intrusion into the lives of every day Americans that makes gays so disliked. Gays…you hurt, no, demolish, your own cause. You cannot accept the fact that what you are doing is wrong so instead of changing your behavior you want to change God and everyone else. I will not fall into the “White man” guilt where I have to embrace everyone and everything in order to feel okay or to be viewed as okay. There are some absolutes in life. There is right and wrong and moral relativism is destroying our great country. Shelley Powers…you are insecure and like hearing yourself talk if you feel the need to reread your posts to find errors and then apologize for your errors. Typos…who cares?

Sweetblue82 April 28, 2009 10:27AM CST: Here we go again with the insults. Just shows how much of a “Christian” nation we truly are, I guess. And for the record, “WE ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION,” just ask any American Indian, any black and Hispanic. There are no “degrees” of sin. Homosexuality is not the mother of all sins. We all fall short, remember. But to say that someone who is gay is going to “hell,” please lump in the person lusting after other women, having sex before marriage (fornication), having affairs, being drunk with wine, lying, stealing, not loving thy neighbor. Those are all the sins that most of you backwoods bigots have anyway; this is St. Louis after all. So I guess you too will enjoy your place in hell because none of you are free from sin. Let people live their lives and let “adults” conduct themselves how they want to with other adults. They have to answer to the Almighty. So stop being concerned about grown folks business and pay attention to your own sinful lives.

Jfmoyn April 28, 2009 10:28AM CST: I learned from one of the nuns in grade school that people use the name of Jesus to hide their prejudice. She always joked that intolerant people carried signs that said, “In the name of Jesus, lover everyone! (Except, of course, those that I hate.)” I certainly can’t make choices for this man any more than I would want him making choices for me. Good for him for taking action on an issue he feels strongly about. As far as the P-D goes, this is a significant nationwide issue and they are just reporting on it.

MilMan April 28, 2009 10:31AM CST: Cherith: You were treated exactly as an unmarried heterosexual couples living together. You were not discriminated against.

StChuckMike April 28, 2009 10:35AM CST: With all the hate in this world, why can’t anyone love AND MARRY who they want? Why do people feel so threatened by this? If two gay people marry each other, how is that going to change YOUR life? Live and let live.

EastCoastStLouisan April 28, 2009 10:37AM CST: Mat: I think you make a good point about the scieftific community not having a definitive answer to the genetics question; however, consider the fact that the same holds true for the theory of evolution. Scientific hypotheses are proven, disproven or in a state requiring more data to determine proof. It is very easy to argue that creation as described in the Bible is an equally or more valid explanation of where man came from than evolutionary theory, which requires much more faith to believe in considering the lack of data. Science has neither proven nor disproven that homosexuality is a heritable trait so neither side can use that argument. However, public schools irresponsibly continue to teach evolutionary theory with a factual tone, misguiding young minds into building a foundation of scientific knowledge on an unsound foundation. As students continue through their education and into life, these weak foundations contribute to their proclivity to believe many unproven hypotheses to be fact by way of persuasion from presenters with underlying. It would not surprise me if public schools are already teaching a genetic basis for homosexuality as fact in schools today regardless of the data.

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 10:38AM CST: MilMan: You are wrong about Cherith. The unmarried heterosexual couple has the option of getting married.

Xavier Lipschidt April 28, 2009 10:43AM CST: For those of you straight people that say you are not flaunting your “lifestyle” in the faces of others, think about your daily lives. How do you introduce your spouse? No one will think twice about you mentioning wife or husband. Do you worry that by wearing a ring on your left hand, you could be faced with a question from someone you just met that might be difficult to explain because you don’t know if they will be accepting of you? It’s so ingrained in our society that you don’t even want to begin to think about how you express your heterosexuality every day. Wake up; quoting the Bible to keep others down is not an excuse for bigotry.

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 10:43AM CST: Wow, now we have moved on to some misogyny “Out of this comes the ‘white guilt’ movement which most white women will fall for even if it contradicts the very fiber of their being or puts them at risk of physical danger or moral victimization…(date a black to prove their progressiveness, take off their clothes at parties, get drunk beyond belief and make fools of themselves).” Wow, what an absolutely scary statement!!! As a heterosexual white progressive female I am appalled by your comment. No guilt here and I make no apologies either. I believe in equal rights for all, even you to spew your misogynist’s nonsense!!!

Mat April 28, 2009 10:45AM CST: I can’t stop myself…
To those who, like Ken Siefert, think that this piece is about Mr. Donius and others shoving their sexuality in your face: I think you’re missing the point. A significant part of the story focused on how Mr. Donius stayed out of the ‘spotlight’ for decades. It took a combination of factors to make him and others like him decide to publicly join the debate.

It’s true that non-heterosexuals are a minority, but the legitimacy of their arguments is not predicated upon numbers. I’m sure Mr. Donius—along with a vast majority of LGBT people—would like nothing more than to go about his life without his sexuality ever being an issue. The problem is, in order to accomplish that, homosexuals have to surrender basis rights, i.e. marriage. In some states (including MO), they even have to fear losing their jobs. So, Mr. Donius and others like him feel a responsibility to do what they can to bring homosexuals to the same status as other citizens.

So, you don’t care what other people do with their own genitals—good for you. That’s a big step, and one that took a lot of work by Mr. Donius’ predecessors. But there is still work to be done to give homosexual citizens rights that are equal to those already enjoyed (or suffered) by the straight community.

The point of the photo in the story is to say “look at this guy: he’s everything you see as legitimate---and he likes guys.” Maybe he looks like an arrogant jerk to you, but he’s certainly not part of a fringe element of society.

MilMan April 28, 2009 10:47AM CST: lajr56: An unmarried couple of either persuasion would have been treated the same. There is no debate. It has to do with banking practices. Not gay marriage and not because they are gay. It is a non-discriminatory practice. It is a legal, banking issue and does not belong on this thread. AND unmarried homosexual couples have the option to marry…in other states. So, it is a choice. Maybe relocation is the answer.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 10:52AM CST: Mat: I never thought of being a certain orientation made me deserve a spotlight of any kind, and I don’t need any kind of legislation or piece of paper to validate who I am…I guess I am missing your point, and if individuals do need this, I wonder why…

Frabax April 28, 2009 10:52AM CST: This is not a “news” story. Bunch of profligate pandowdies! Who cares about Mr. Donius’ personal life. Is he a good banker? Hopefully, Judge Mooney does not let his affliction affect his objectivity on the bench. The Post-Disfishwrap advances the gay agenda at the expense of readership and reporting. How nice. I am so tired of the tail wagging the dog.

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 10:55AM CST: The people in here who are throwing around the words…hicks, hillbillies, backwards, etc. are actually hicks themselves.

My father is a retired TWA pilot and I’ve been more places than any of you idiots combined.

To actually believe that ‘other’ cities are these progressive utopias just tells it all. You make sweeping generalizations on a greater population of 3.1 million by a few comments you disagree with by a worthless rag newspaper and that makes you the very backward, close-minded person you claim to be.
Most of you have just swallowed what you’ve been fed and have not made any conclusions or decision about any topic of relevance on your own. Jon Stewartberg and SNL says ‘believe what we tell you or you’re a redneck’ and you bark and clap your flippers together like trained seals.

Also, if any of you think Europe is this wonderful fantasyland that is so liberal, just know this. All of western Europe is highly anti-Jewish and the cities and people are so filthy you can’t even believe it.
A European hick makes a stereotypical trailer park hick look like a Manhattan socialite.

Ready2repent April 28, 2009 10:57AM CST: My faith, beliefs, and lifestyle are directly attributed to the WORD. My religion is based on sacrifice and servancy, not selfish desires of the human being…I’m sick and tired of the “religion of convenience” attitude. I will pray for all who do not have the fortune to understand our purpose on this earth. You are either for God or against him; it’s a simple choice!

Cherith Cutestory April 28, 2009 11:02AM CST: “MilMan April 28, 2009 10:31AM CST: Cherith: You were treated exactly as an unmarried heterosexual couple living together. You were not discriminated against.”

Except for the fact that an unmarried heterosexual can choose to get married and therefore avoid the unnecessary paperwork and hassle, whereas we couldn’t choose to get married. The state decided for us.

I do not claim to be “discriminated against,” nor am I asking for “special rights.” We just want the same rights as every other couple wanting to purchase a home.

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 11:05AM CST: Oh, now you’re claiming to have been to “western Europe” and calling the people and their cities “filthy?” Well, do tell, what “western European” cities have you visited that are so “filthy?”

North County Nan April 28, 2009 11:06AM CST: The overwhelming ignorance displayed in these comments really makes me sick. The “Christians” have lined up in spades to tell us all how we should live, but then turn around and condemn gays for “pushing their lifestyle” onto others.
Guess what, Bible thumpers, YOU are the ones trying to force your version of morality down everyone else’s throat! Gays and lesbians are simply seeking the same rights and protections that the rest of us take for granted, and what they’re doing is affecting absolutely NO ONE else.
If you think gays are threatening the sanctity of your marriage, then perhaps your marriage isn’t very strong to begin with. Shame on all of you who think you have the right to judge others!

Glass Houses April 28, 2009 11:08AM CST: The only human error Mr. Donius made was in returning to live in this bigoted, one Clydesdale town. Heck, even the Clydesdale prostituted itself to foreign ownership. Jesus is going to have His hands FULL enough with priestly Catholic pedophiles, divorced heterosexuals and the lot that is responsible for giving Earth eight murderous years of G.W. Bush. Well done, heterosexuals. Keep throwing those stones.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 11:10AM CST: Hey MilMan, Is someone misrepresenting Jesus? Is Jesus real, or just a figment of your imagination?

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 11:19AM CST: Sillyme—London, Paris, Scotland, Ireland, Brussels, Portugal (one of the worst), Spain (perverts all over the beaches). I’ve been all over the place.

No big deal for Chesterfield resident. You can always tell the North County wannabes like yourself who think it’s a big deal. You make fools out of yourselves.

BLV3df April 28, 2009 11:20AM CST: All this article is trying to say is there are normal gay men and women in the workplace. They are the people all around you and to treat them exactly how you would like to be treated, with respect.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 11:25AM CST: BLV3df…yep, and if they aren’t treated that way, fly above it.

MilMan April 28, 2009 11:26AM CST: Mydog: All people and major religions agree that Jesus existed…you confess that every time you write the year, 2009; however, some believe he was a prophet or a great teacher. The question is not whether He existed or not. The question for people is “who” is Jesus. It is awesome that just the mention of His name causes people to lose their composure. His is the only name that provokes that response…so WHO is He?

Tank April 28, 2009 11:28AM CST: You will find out on judgment day mydogshakespeare. Homosexuality is wrong in God’s eye and simply goes against nature no matter what you believe in. I don’t care what goes on between consenting adults, just stop trying to take your minority view and cramming it down the majority’s throat.

Mat April 28, 2009 11:29AM CST: eastcoaststlouisan-Regardless of what wouldn’t surprise you, the public schools aren’t teaching a genetic basis of homosexuality. As for the whole evolution thing…*yawn;* we’ll have to save that for another day. I’m not taking the bait. Suffice it to say that your premises are uniformly mistaken.

Ken Siefert-Let’s try one more time: You don’t need a piece of paper or legislation to validate who you are. Congratulations. You do, however, need one or both to allow you to access to certain rights and privileges. Gay people don’t get them. They feel they deserve them. They would love to put this whole thing behind them—many have tried for years to do just that–but they can’t until they have achieved a status they deserve, i.e. equality with the rest of us.

Illnewsie April 28, 2009 11:29AM CST: Ah, oh; we’re going back on Gawker.com with the kind of crazy comments that are posted here. The flyover zone shows its ugly racist face again.

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 11:30 AM CST: MilMan – I only wish I could be there to see the st6unned look on your face the day of your judgment.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 11:34AM CST: Mat, I am discriminated against in many ways, but it will never stand in the way of my happiness, and if I have to wait for legislation for me to be happy, it would be a wasted life…I understood what you have said, and I am responding…

Yuri63122 April 28, 2009 11:35AM CST: Does this mean it is now ok to openly discuss the homosexual issue that haunts the Cardinal clubhouse?

RomansOne April 28, 2009 11:36AM CST: Stlgasm, I did not compare homosexuals to murderers. I stated that you are saying the “live and let live” is a rule, but you state that murder is wrong; therefore you don’t really believe that people ARE subject to standards. You just have a problem with the Biblical standard. And again, that’s your right. But “live and let live” without an objective standard only results in anarchy.

RomansOne April 28, 2009 11:38AM CST: STLgasm, correction—I’m not proofreading very well—“but you state that murder is wrong; therefore you DO really believe that people ARE subject to standards.” Sorry.

W. Champion April 28, 2009 11:38AM CST: I love when the enlightened thinkers in here throw out the “hillbilly, one horse town” etc. I also have lived in and visited cities all over the world. St. Louis is more conservative, but what do you want? You want New York? Chicago? Gay marriage is not legal in either one and they are now both bankrupt. You want Europe? Give me a break; people in Europe don’t want Europe. I spent 2006 in London. It’s no Xanadu.

Wishlist09 April 28, 2009 11:39AM CST: You know what the real problem is? The hard-line right wing conservatives are making all the laws and rules. We cannot continue on in the current direction we are going. If we allow everyone to have a say in what we do or allow, they won’t be able to drill their agenda down our throats and keep people where they want them to be. They won’t be able to keep the minorities doing the lower paying jobs and living in the lower income neighborhoods. They won’t be able to keep the big money in the hands of the controlling wealthy powerbrokers. They won’t be able to have servants to do the menial tasks which are beneath them. They won’t be able to use religion to keep everyone in line either. Because you and I know, the right wingers are the only ones who know what we really need to make us better people and to be accepted by them. It is funny; by allowing other people rights, they feel there are rights being taken away from them. We can’t have everyone with equal rights, because that would be contrary to their version of freedom. After all, freedom is only perfect, right wing conservatives. They are the only ones who truly know what we need and why we need it. I surrender, oh, right wing conservative rulers. Please direct me to where I need to go and what I should do. I am at your feet, awaiting your commands. I cannot think for myself. Only you have the intelligence to think for me and everyone else. We need you to control us so we can all be free.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 11:40AM CST: Hey MilMan, If no one knows who Jesus is, then how can anyone misrepresent him?

Like most religious apologists, you are just confused and don’t even know it! As they say, “ignorance is bliss.”

Yuri63122 April 28, 2009 11:40AM CST: whishlist, using terms like “drilling their agenda down our throats” is a lame attempt at humor. Please stop.

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 11:41AM CST: Well, I don’t believe you have been to all those places. I have been to several European cities and I wouldn’t call any of them filthy. Perhaps like any city there are areas that are not maintained as well. If it’s no big deal to a Chesterfield resident like yourself, then why did you bring it up? You really just can’t help yourself, can you? First verbal assault about gays, second dishing some misogyny about white liberal women, then you move on to call Europeans “filthy,” and now you’re spewing prejudicial comments about the people of North County! Nothing against the fine folks of North County, but I’m not actually from there. Perhaps your next post can spew some hatefulness about another group! Hmmm, let’s see; who have you forgotten to target with your blather? Another religious group perhaps?

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 11:43AM CST: Nobody gives a crap about judgment day or the Bible. This issue has to do with cramming an agenda down everyone’s throat.

You could replace every heterosexual person and their children in the city and replace them with gays. Every political position, every school board member, everybody is gay. They could live their lives according to their own creed and never be bothered by anyone.

This would be great, yes? NO…they wouldn’t be able to handle not being ‘oppressed’ or ‘beaten up’ (yeah, right!). They would make it their purpose in life to find normal, innocuous, heterosexual communities and cry victimization because there are no gay boy scout leaders or baseball coaches. They would then pull out the tried and true buzzwords…racist, bigot, homophobe, and run stories on 60 Minutes while the correspondent asks questions to the victim with the most pained look on his face and violins playing in the background.

This goes for every ‘victimized’ group. All of these groups have a vested interest in becoming and staying victims. That’s it.

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 11:45AM CST: Just to show you social conservatives out there how the times are changing, Arlen Specter just left your party. Yahoo

JakeDaSnake April 28, 2009 11:46AM CST: Why does everyone keep bringing God into it? There are no laws that say you must believe in God to get married. Atheists can still get married, so why can’t homosexuals? If you choose to interpret the Bible to read that homosexuals cannot marry, what does it say about people that do not believe in God at all? They most likely don’t care what the Bible says. It was just written by a bunch of guys over a period of time to tell of their teachings on how to live an honest, prosperous life. Live by the Bible, your life will be Heaven; if you don’t, your life will be Hell. Civil Unions for everyone! And has anyone thought about the possible income we are missing out on. Marriages…er…civil unions are big money. We are still in a recession, right? Stimulate the economy; allow same-sex marriages!

MilMan April 28, 2009 11:52AM CST: lajr56: I am so glad Arlen is out. He is a liberal. He switched parties because the writing is on the wall in his state. He can’t win the next election. By the way, President Obama shares the conservative view on gay marriage…one man and one woman…he has said it repeatedly! How many of you gay people commenting voted for Obama? He does not support your right to marry! He is a homophobe! If he didn’t mean it and just said it to get elected, then he is a liar! So, you either voted for a homophobe or a liar…you can’t win!

Ted April 28, 2009 11:52AM CST: There is a related article in the NY Times today regarding the GOP stance on this issue. It sounds like they are reconsidering their opposition in fear of losing younger voters. The younger conservatives are more open to alternative lifestyles. Just food for thought. I would imagine if Iowa can recognize gay marriage we are not far behind in MO.

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 11:54AM CST: I’ve been to a lot more places than that, sweetheart. You must not of gotten off the tour bus then because you have no idea what real life is like in Europe or any other American city if you believe in these fantasyland scenarios.

I’m actually not hateful at all and if you’d read the context of the comment and not get swept up in the ‘us vs. tem’ argument that only naïve people get snared in.

The fact that you see ‘hate’ is a personal problem. I suggest you take a real honest look at yourself and find out why you see things like that.

I’m guessing that you have an axe to grind against the good-looking guys like me who looked right past you in high school or hatred for pretty girls?

For people like yourself that are hung up on those things, the path of least resistance is usually their destiny in adulthood. I don’t expect you to look at things objectively, but rather do what you can to ‘belong.’

Icedream April 28, 2009 11:56AM CST: I agree with Bill 100%. The only part of gay society that is ever shown is the “freak show” side. If all gay men showed up at a Gay Pride parade or celebration in a jacket and tie, there would not even be one blip of it in the media. In June, watch the news coverage for Pride St. Louis on any of our local stations. You will see drag queens, men in leather with their butts hanging out, and big Nelly homos, who, as Bill said, are just a small part of gay society. We are lawyers, judges, executives, police officers, bank presidents, ministers, teachers and, yes…doctors. So, the next time one of you homophobes go in to have your prostate exam, thing about that…we are even proctologists, general practitioners and even gynecologists! We are not all wanting to shove it down your throat. However, we would like to love and marry whomever we choose!

Walker Studio April 28, 2009 11:59AM CST: Attention people: Homosexuality is not a religious issue, nor a political issue. It is biological. You don’t have any more control over sexual orientation than you do hair color or left-handedness. So we don’t need the Jesus people telling everyone how to live.

Wishlit09 April 28, 2009 11:59AM CST: yuri63122, No, it is fact. There is only one version of freedom, the right wing version, in which they determine who is actually free and who is not, by their views and beliefs.

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 12:00PM CST: MilMan: We will see ;)

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 12:02PM CST: WELDON SPRING DAN--- I GUESS IF THE ONLY THING YOU BE UPSET OVER IS MY CAPS LOCK ARE ON I’M OKAY WITH THAT. AND I HAVE PROCREATED…THANKSMYDOGSHAKESPEARE---YES I THINK HIS LOVE IS UNCONDITIONAL. YES I’M GOING TO PASS “THE TEST” MY SINS ARE NO WORSE OR BETTER THAN A HOMOSEXUAL’S ARE. THERE IS NO SMALLER SIN. SIN IS SIN PERIOD. YES JESUS IS COMING BACK. I KNOW BECAUSE THE BIBLE (GOD’S WORD SAYS SO) THE WAY I WOULD KNOW IT IS BECAUSE I WILL BE REJOICING IN HEAVEN WHEN HE DOES. AND I’M SURE TO YOU JESUS AND GOD ARE DISAPPEARING, BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY DON’T KNOW THEM. BUT WHERE I COME FROM THEY ARE DEFINITELY NOT GONE!!!!!! YES I KNOW BIBLE STORIES, MAYBE I OCULD TEACH THEM TO YOU??? YES MARRIAGE IS SUPPOSED TO BE BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN (AGAIN, I KNOW BECAUSE GOD’S WORD SAYS SO). AS FAR AS THOSE WHO DIVORCE…GOD GAVE THE LAW OF DIVORCE TO MOSES…KNOWING IT WOULD HAPPEN. AND YES GOD FORGIVE THEIR INDISCRETIONS JUST AS HE FORGIVES YOURS AND MINE…IF ONLY THEY ASK IT SHALL BE CAST INTO A SEA OF FORGETFULNESS. IF YOU HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR I CAN HELP CLARIFY THINGS FOR YOU I’D BE GLAD TO. JUST LET ME KNOW. GOD BLESS YOU BROTHERS, CAPS LOCK SHELLIE.

Jeffstl April 28, 2009 12:02PM CST: I quit reading comments about ½ way through because I was getting sick to my stomach. So much hatred and complete hypocrisy! First, in Biblical times, no one knew what homosexuality was. It wasn’t understood as something inherent. They just figured men were sleeping with men. So, you can’t say that the Bible says anything about homosexuality. Second, there is a HUGE difference between the Law (Old Testament) and the Gospel (New Testament). Man (and woman) cannot live by the Law, thus the Father sent the Son to fulfill the Law for us by dying on the cross and rising again on the third day. If ANYONE of you lives by the REST of Leviticus, then I’ll listen to your argument about Leviticus 18. Third, there is not one reference about homosexuality in the New Testament; only about sexual immorality, which is adultery. That’s too broad a statement to say it’s about gays or lesbians. Would a committed partnership between two people not be moral? Who are ANY of us to say yes or no? Would YOU sit in God’s place and judge? As I recall, it says “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” Fourth, I’m a life-long Lutheran, and Christian, and I believe the Lord is shaking his head in sadness over much that has been said here. Fifth, if you’re not gay, then shut the hell up, because what’s it to YOU? This country has a lot bigger problems…hunger, gang warfare, the killings that make St. Louis in the top 10…focus on that. Finally, responding to me will be fruitless because I refuse to read anymore on this forum today. Good luck to you all. It’s just a shame that ignorance and intolerance isn’t PAINFUL. P.S. I agree on one point: I don’t think it’s necessary to broadcast any sexuality. What you do in your home is your business. Notice I didn’t tell you which orientation I am…

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 12:04PM CST: Well, I’ve got to go everyone. I have a full day of harassing gays, oppressing blacks, turning in illegals, laughing at midgets and kicking puppies ahead of me.

LNPhoenix April 28, 2009 12:05PM CST: What I can’t seem to understand is why it is that most Christians cannot seem to grasp the concept that the Constitution’s purpose was to protect minorities from the religious majority? I have complete and total respect for Christians’ beliefs in marriage and I would NEVER EVER force a church to marry a gay couple when they felt that it was “against God.” But, we’re all supposed to get the same rights—and religion has to be separate from that. I am no Christian and I shouldn’t be living in a world where the laws are designed around the Bible. I understand the concept of morality and the role that it must play in our laws—basic concepts that play into every religion like punishing murderers. But, how would Christians feel if the country decided it was no longer okay to worship Jesus or to attend churches where Jesus was mentioned? What if all marriage ceremonies had to be conducted according to Jewish law? I guarantee that they would be screaming for the government to get out of their religion. I’m a libertarian, which is why I would be screaming for it, too.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 12:05PM CST: You assume too much when you claim (essentially) that everyone confesses that Jesus existed every time they write 2009. When I balanced by checkbook last month, I wrote that I had $2387, but had exactly $378 in un-cleared checks so my available balance was $2009, and I wrote that down. How did “I confess” when I did that? Oh, you mean when I write the year 2009!

As it turns out, someone else (o, yes; a 6th century monk named Dionysius Exyguss) who more or less guessed when Jesus was born. So, in the long run, no one really knows WHO Jesus WAS (as you said), and we don’t really know when he was born, either!

Wow, what a dry fount of knowledge you are!

Nonetheless, I’ll “confess” that Jesus exists…Jesus is imaginary! Just like his God, his Father. Jesus and God exist only in your imagination, which neatly explains why no one knows WHO he IS.

EastCoastStLouisan April 28, 2009 12:08PM CST: Walker Studio-What paper or scientific evidence supports your claim that homosexuality is not controllable? That is a hard sell when you have nothing to back it up, but if you can get people to believe that claim without evidence, you could really gain acceptance of your agenda! Good try. Ted- 1. NY Times…now THERE’S a credible source! (lol) 2. Don’t automatically associate conservative with Republican Party…fact is they are losing their base by moving left. Watch for a third party backed by conservatives coming soon!

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 12:10PM CST: You sure make a lot of generalizations! You are the one who fails in objectivity here with your faulty assumptions. You assume things that are completely false. You assume I’m from North Country: false; you assume I never got off the tour bus in Europe: false; you assume I’m not good looking: false; and you assume I have some axe to grind : false. All of your ad hominem and red herring approaches to the debate show how very weak and unsound your argument really is.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 12:11PM CST: Hey Tank, No need to get all pious and sanctimonious around here! You have an opinion about God, and I have mine. Your threats are pretty petty, particularly since you’re just back them with fairytales.

Of course, I might be quakin’ in my boots if you had any genuine evidence that any of your stories were true. Got any? Bring it forth!

If not, go wag your finger in the mirror.

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 12:15PM CST: What exactly is my argument, Silly? You tell me.

BoomBox April 28, 2009 12:15PM CST: There is no reason to be against gay marriage unless you dislike gays in some way. There is simply no logical argument otherwise. Everyone against gay marriage here is bringing God and Jesus into this argument, but I look at it like this: To the Christians screaming about values and such do you think divorce, disobeying your parents, working on Sunday, sodomy, fornication, etc…should be illegal as well? Then why should the Christian/religious view of marriage be the law of the land in a country that has millions of non-Christian, non-religious people? Chances are you don’t follow all the laws and rules of the Bible anyway, so why force this one aspect on the rest of us? Perhaps we could make all Biblical laws apply to everyone the way Saudi Arabia does with the Quran? Oh, you wouldn’t want to be arrested for picking up an extra shift on Sunday? Then stop acting like your religion should apply to everyone and shut up!

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 12:16PM CST: Blather!

Mat April 28, 2009 12:17PM CST: eastcoaststlouisan-don’t you find it a little incongruous to rip on another poster’s scientific claim as lacking evidence and motivated by an agenda, when you were espousing creationism a while ago?

THIS IS FUN

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 12:18PM CST: EVER HEARD OF THE GREAT COMMISSION? YES SPREADING THE WORD OF JESUS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE CHARGED TO DO.

Moderator’s note: Shellie…could you please stop with the caps lock? You’re not doing yourself any favors. It’s harder to read.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 12:19PM CST: Hey---SHELLIE, THANKS FOR CONFIRMING YOUR PIETY! JUST CURIOUS, THOUGH, WHAT IF JESUS COMES BACK ON MAY 1, 2009? WILL YOU BE IN HEAVEN BY THEN? IS THERE ENOUGH TIME? I THOUGHT THERE WAS A THREE DAY WAIT IN PURGATORY FIRST.

ALSO, I’M PRETTY SURE THERE WOULDN’T BE A PLACE LIKE HELL IF GOD AND JESUS LOVED US ALL THE SAME AND UNCONDITIONALLY. THERE WOULDN’T BE A RULE THAT SAYS “IF YOU BELIEVE, THEN YOU GET INTO HEAVEN,” IF YOUR CLAIM IS TRUE.

THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE YOU CAN HELP ME WITH, THOUGH. WHY DO GOD AND JESUS PERFORM “MIRACLE CURES” ON CANCER PATIENTS AND OTHERS, BUT NEVER EVER ON AMPUTEES? CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY HE NEVER EVER REGROWS A LIMB? I KNOW PEOPLE PRAY FOR THEM TO REGROW, YET JESUS’ PROMISE IS NEVER FULFILLED WHEN IT COMES TO AMPUTEES. WHY NOT?

Tank April 28, 2009 12:21PM CST: As I said, my dog; no matter what you believe in it goes against nature which you cannot deny.

Tank April 28, 2009 12:23PM CST: Now I understand, mydog.

Tank April 28, 2009 12:25PM CST: I understand your disbelief now, mydog.

Mat April 28, 2009 12:26PM CST: Hey Tank, you know what else ‘goes against nature?’ Eyeglasses.

There’s no such thing as going against nature and, incidentally, humans don’t hold exclusive rights to gay sex. Biker shorts? Sure. S&M? Maybe. But guy-on-guy action is more widespread than you might think.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 12:26PM CST: Hey Milman, You know, if no one really knows WHO Jesus IS, then no one is an authority on WHAT he WANTS. So, quit puttin’ words in Jesus’ mouth like you know what he’s talkin’ about. God and Jesus are just manmade characters, and what they want (or more accurately, what they wanted) were merely the desire of the social engineers who devised the stories.

We no longer stone adulterers or disrespectful children, so there is no reason (and certainly no Biblical reason) to continue denying human rights to homosexuals.

Sophie Biggens April 28, 2009 12:27PM CST: Personally…I think Mr. Donius and Co. would better serve the gay community and the area as a whole by working as hard at their regular job as they do worry about whether they can marry each other. Obviously, this guy has too much free time.

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 12:28PM CST: You just did exactly what I said you’d do…You can’t argue the greater issue but rather take the path of least resistance and stick your tongue out.

You’re an angry woman and I feel bad about that. I actually do because you are the prime pickings for marginal fringe groups. Again, this has nothing to do with gays but a much broader political agenda. An agenda that is not capable of success.

Vulnerable, insecure persons are always swept up in what they believe is noble and righteous but in reality are just simple pawns. Look at the loons who join cults or hardcore religious sects. They are so drilled down on an ideology that they don’t see that they are puppets.

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 12:30PM CST: Ok, to begin with this is not a debate about liberal women or Europeans or the Bible actually. It’s not a debate about a group of people cramming their lifestyle or beliefs down anyone’s throat. This is a debate about two people who love one another seeking to establish the same rights and privileges as others who have found love, want to express it legally and to have those legal rights recognized! I fail to see how this can be upsetting to anyone else, how this somehow pollutes the idea of marriage. So they don’t get married in your church and that’s ok. But they should have a right to get married in their church or city hall or anywhere else that would sanction same-sex partner marriages and the state government should recognize them legally and afford them the same legal rights as opposite-sex marriages. Please explain what is wrong with having a real separation of church and state in the matter, keeping the Bible and prejudices out of a legal matter?

EastCoastStLouisan April 28, 2009 12:32PM CST: BoomBox, you are right about people not following all laws of the Bible, yet they point fingers at homosexuals. The thing that I think sets homosexuality apart and causes so much controversy is that just like bearing false witness, adultery, murder, coveting neighbors’ wives, etc., it is considered a sin by Christina religions which make up a majority of the people in the country. With that in mind, what other sin is heralded as “cool” or “justifiable,” and more importantly, boasted about on a daily basis? Answer…none. What if this article was written about a bank executive who was talking about how great it is to sleep with another woman behind his wife’s back, or how he is just another of a long list of habitual liars that is just like every other suit-wearing executive in St. Louis area other than he loves to lie and wants to be accepted for it? The overwhelming push to make homosexuality acceptable, and subsequent labeling of anyone who opposes it with the bigot, homophobe, and/or discriminatory label, is what causes the outcry from many.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 12:34PM CST: Mat, thank you for the polite discussion, and Bill, good luck with things, and it looks like you could have helped out some people on here who were looking for home loans together. I think having the courage of your own convictions will carry the day.

Ucity88 April 28, 2009 12:237PM CST: LOL @ Tank re: going against nature.

The following also go against nature: Cars, airplanes and anything that leaves the ground powered by a motor, elevators, ear (or any other) piercings, clothes, sound recordings, monogamy, birth control, delayed gratification, genetic modification of food or anything, medicine, monetary credit, photography, movies and the list goes on…

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 12:37PM CST: DOGGIE---I PERSONALLY DO NOT BELIEVE IN PURGATORY. SO IF HE COMES ON MAY 1 I WILL GO THEN…OK? HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF FREE WILL? GOD DOES LOVE US ALL THE SAME. PEOPLE CHOOSE TO WALK AWAY. IF YOU DON’T FEEL GOD IS NEAR IT’S BECAUSE YOU’RE GONE, NOT GOD. AND JUST FOR THE RECORD, “BELIEVING” ISN’T ENOUGH; NOT BY A LONG SHOT. YOU MUST HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST. RELIGION IS A JOKE IN MY OPINION. IT’S NOT ABOUT RELIGION, IT’S ABOUT A RELATIONSHIP. AS FAR AS YOUR MIRACLE QUESTIONS, I HAVE TO BE HONEST WITH YOU (THAT’S THE WAY I ROLL), I DON’T KNOW. BUT…I DO NOT DWELL ON IT EITHER. I’M NOT CREATED TO KNOW EVERYTHING NOR WOULD I WANT TO. BROTHER DOG, YOU MIND IF I ASK YOU A QUESTION SINCE I HAVE ANSWERED ALL OF YOURS? WHY ARE YOU SO AGAINST CHRISTIANS? I HAVE READ SEVERAL OF YOUR POSTS ON HERE ON DIFFERENT SUBJECTS AND YOU SEEM UNHAPPY. PLEASE DON’T MISUNDERSTAND, I’M NOT TRYING TO CUT ON YOU OR PUT YOU DOWN IN ANYWAY WHATSOEVER. MY QUESTION IS WHY NOT TRY JESUS? I MEAN IF IN THE END THIS HAS ALL BEEN A GREAT BIG SHAM, WHAT HAVE I LOST? WHAT I BELIEVE HAS CAUSED MY LIFE TO BE GOOD AND HAPPY, HAS MADE MY HEART SOFT SO I CAN DO GOOD THINGS FOR OTHERS, ETC., ETC., ETC. BUT, IF IN THE END I AM RIGHT, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOU? AND ARE YOU REALLY WILLING TO TAKE THAT CHANCE?

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 12:39PM CST: Hey sillyme41, It’s about human rights and equal rights! Well said!

MommaBear April 28, 2009 12:42PM CST: I’m still wondering why sexual orientation of ANYONE needs to be a new story. That’s the real problem. I don’t care who you want to have sex with – shut up already. I don’t need to know and you don’t need to know that about me.

Jumpleft April 28, 2009 12:44PM CST: Jeffstl – I know you are not reading any posts after your own, but I wanted to share a couple thoughts. Maybe one other person will find them useful (I can hope). I believe you and I are on the same basic side here, and I liked your comments. However, I think when you say, “Fifth, if you’re not gay, then shut the hell up, because what’s it to YOU? This country has a lot bigger problems…hunger, gang warfare, the killings that make St. Louis in the top 10…focus on that,” your points are more easily disregarded. I agree there may be more important things to worry about, but telling people to shut the hell up doesn’t help win anyone to your cause, whatever it may be. I understand the frustration and anger…you just need to realize that some people will never want to view the world outside of their comfortable sphere. Also, people might not read anything you have to say AFTER you tell them to shut the hell up. I know I have difficulty continuing on when someone starts in about the “do good liberal commies destroying the country,” for example.

EastCoastStLouisan April 28, 2009 12:44PM CST: mat – Agreed, this IS fun. Actually, if you read my previous post, I said that it takes much more faith to believe in evolution than creation, and noted that the lack of data available has prevented evolution from being anything more than theoretical, yet evolutionists skip the step of proof and go forward as if it were law. One must take the evidence and draw a conclusion in both cases, and both cases also require “faith.” My question to the poster was not a rip, but a call to back up their claim, which will not happen and will prove my point.

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 12:48PM CST: There you go with the ad hominem and red herring approaches again. Please state your valid reasons for opposing gay marriage rather than some broad-brush statement about a larger liberal political agenda. What do I have to gain from gay marriage? I simply think it is the right thing for states to do, to recognize the union as legally defined and offer the same legal rights. I’m not angry but I do find most of your comments disheartening and a distraction from the issue at hand. I have not made any personal attacks on you whatsoever but rather have addressed and dismissed what you have written as maundering. I’m addressing what has been written but not the writer, clearly and objectively.

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 12:53PM CST: Sometimes you know something in your heart, just because you know it. I have an uncle who is very close to my age. We grew up together. We were young children together. We come from a large family and he has may older brothers. He played with me and my female cousins more than the boys. This is before we were old enough to even know about sex, dating, etc. I know he did not learn this. I know he was born this way. I don’t need any scientific data to prove or disprove what I lived.

Ucity88 April 28, 2009 12:54PM CST: I find John McCain (or any politician) marrying his mistress to be far more damaging to the institution of marriage than two people of the same sex marrying.

BoomBox April 28, 2009 12:56PM CST: EastCoastStLouisan, I can assure you that if you think being gay is “cool” you should hang around the younger generation more. Everything bad is called “gay “ and gays are taunted today the same way they were 30 years ago. The difference is now they are empowered and it scared people to think that a group they generally dislike is gaining rights and power. To me, it is honestly what this issue is about; you either like/don’t mind gay people or you don’t like them at all. Just be honest about it and stop using the Bible or “shoving it down your throat” to justify something that honestly doesn’t affect you at all. (I don’t mean “you” literally, just the opposing side.) Also, have you guys ever heard of Ashley Madison? It is a website that promotes discreet affairs between married couples. Now I think the website is scum myself, but I don’t think it should be illegal. Now I ask the Christians on this site who oppose gay marriage, do you think Ashley Madison should be illegal or no? It clearly is against the sanctity of marriage and is about as “immoral” and “scummy” as it gets. Where do you draw the line???

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 12:56PM CST: MYDOGSHAKESPEARE…I DO OWE YOU AN APOLOGY. I WAS BEING A SMART MOUTH WHEN I CALLED YOU DOGGIE. I’M SORRY, SHELLIE.

Mat April 28, 2009 12:56PM CST: EastCoastStLouisan-

1.Your use of ‘theory,’ a scientific term of art, is either disingenuous or ignorant.
2. Your assertion that, in the face of evidence, evolution stands on equal footing with creation is laughable.
3. There is no such thing as proof, only support. The overwhelming weight of empirical evidence supports evolution, so much so that it’s a non-issue among all but a tiny fraction of the scientific community.
4. The other poster’s failure to back up his claim will NOT prove your point.
5. You were deriding the notion that the other poster would try to push forward his agenda without empirical support. You’re doing the same thing.
6. I can’t believe I let you drag me into this. Like I’m going to change your mind.

Sillyme41 April 28, 2009 1:02PM CST: Hi mydogshakespeare, Thanks! I don’t bother debating the religious folks about the sanctity of same-sex marriage. From my point of view, the Bible was written in several languages and unless they can read and interpret it from the original languages, I’m not too interested in the debate. I think it’s a legal issue not a religious argument anyway.

Better4u April 28, 2009 1:02PM CST: To Mr. Donius and other individuals who are named in this article, I applaud your ability to present yourself as an example of gay people who are ordinary. This is not an affront to those people who go to Pride Day and display their flair for the exotic. Several people on this post have decried them as “freaks.” They are merely out to have a good time. Why should I care if they dress differently than I? I am disappointed in the many bigoted views on this post. On the other hand, I doubt that St. Louis is much worse than any other major city. This is a free country where people should be allowed to discuss the important events of the day. I don’t understand why people view “assuring” that gays have access to the same rights as non-gays, makes it special. What’s special about getting what everyone else gets? It’s called “fair.” You don’t have to like gays nor do you have to become gay (ha ha). But you shouldn’t be allowed to discriminate against gays any more than you would discriminate against people with blue eyes. It’s a trait that they have which occurs “naturally” in life. It may be in the minority, but it is still a natural consequence of biology/genes, etc. Accept it if you can’t embrace it, and let’s all move on to the other issues of the day, such as our economy.

Minivanmama April 28, 2009 1:04PM CST: I can’t help but wonder why so many of the persons posting comments here say they are uninterested in this subject when they (apparently) read the article and then bother to take the time to comment. I also wonder why so many make inane comments insinuating that gay people and their supporters want to have “it” both ways – be treated equal and/or keep things quiet v. getting “special” rights and making a statement. For one thing, is it that difficult to see that some people approach things one way and some people use another approach? There isn’t one official way for gay people (or anyone else) to live their lives. Also, the “being treated fairly” v. “special rights” argument is facetious. Obviously, if a group of people feels they are being negatively treated for no good reason, they may feel like action (what some call special rights) should be taken in order to improve that treatment to the point where they are being treated equally with everyone else. This is not that difficult to understand. One can argue whether that group is being treated unfairly and one can argue about what would be the best way to rectify the situation, but anyone who hides behind comments like “first they say they want to be treated equally and then they ask for special treatment” is just trying to avoid a mature discussion.

Usernametaken April 28, 2009 1:05PM CST: You like me don’t you, Silly?

STL 1981 April 28, 2009 1:10PM CST: This same kind of awful reference to ancient documents and sayings was used to exclude blacks from society well into the 1960s. Anyone who condones – or supports – the same prejudices that treated our President and First Lady like second class citizens, well you ought to have gotten the message by now, all humankind is created equal in this country, and you ought to be plenty embarrassed. We treated this other group of “lesser” beings who were different than the mainstream like dogs or worse. It’s disgusting and we should do everything in our power to avoid it ever again.

Bigfun64mo April 28, 2009 1:16PM CST: We’re not asking for special rights, we’re asking for equal treatment. Recently, I found out how unequal things are. My partner had an issue. I could not visit because I was not immediate family. When he told them I was his husband, we were told, “You’re not married.” If you heteros have such an issue with calling it marriage, any suggestions of what to call it?

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 1:18PM CST: Also, it needs to be said (referencing Gay Pride parades and the like) that it has always been people on the ‘fringe,’ who were willing to put themselves ‘out there,’ that brought change about. In the early part of the 20th century it was women who risked ridicule, chained themselves to light posts, were thrown in jail, and were badmouthed by other women who gave us (me) the right to vote. Did that mean that all of a sudden there was equality? No. We are still paid less, etc. But those people paving the way gave the others enough confidence to speak later on. Congratulations, Bill. Good job, P-D.

TylerDurden April 28, 2009 1:21PM CST: Shellie, please turn your caps lock off if you’re going to continue to post. Sincerely, Everyone.

USF1965 April 28, 2009 1:21PM CST: Why is anyone who comes out as gay newsworthy? So what!! Traditional lifestyle or relationship is heterosexual. I don’t care how far back you can find someone who went off the plantation to be gay. Why does the media have to force this crap down our throats to try and get the majority of Americans to support a lifestyle that a minority feel is normal. Just because people want something recognized as legitimate does not mean it should be done. One thing is for sure, even if you get our left-leaning politicians to bend over and agree it doesn’t mean the majority will ever agree. I think that is the example of the vote in California. Gay favoring legislators introduce and traditional citizens reject.

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 1:26PM CST: 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV) “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”…Leviticus 20:13: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”…Romans 1:27 “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.” -------Sex is God’s idea and its purpose is not only for procreation, but also for recreation and the development of a deep relationship between man and woman. Nothing is wrong or dirty about sex when it is engaged in the bonds of marriage as the Lord commanded in the Bible. However, when perversions are committed inside the marriage relationship, this can be sinful also. God made man and woman and brought them together “face to face.” Oral sex is of homosexual origin that replaces the normal “face to face” relationship God intended in a marriage. The Bible describes the sex act in Song of Solomon, Chapter 4. In this chapter it speaks of this “face to face” relationship by describing looking into his lover’s eyes and kissing his lover’s lips and fondling his lover’s breasts. Oral sex is not normal or natural as it is an unclean act. No one has to live in bondage with an abnormal life of homosexuality nor any other abnormal behavior. No one has to be controlled by pornography. No one has to have evil thoughts plague their minds. There is a way out through what Jesus has done for us. He loves sinners and wants to free us from any evil practices. He will empower those who cry out for deliverance to get free and stay free.

USF1965 April 28, 2009 1:26PM CST: stl 1981, Your argument is a bad analogy. Sexual prefrence has nothing to do with race relations.

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 1:29PM CST: Geez, when did typing in caps become such a big deal. Sorry , is this better?

USF1965 April 28, 2009 1:31PM CST: STL 1981 SORRY ABOUT MY SPELLING MISTAKE…PREFERENCE.

TylerDurden April 28, 2009 1:33PM CST:” Geez, when did typing in caps become such a big deal. Sorry , is this better?” It’s way better. Thanks.

Ucity88 April 28, 2009 1:39PM CST: SHELLIE – Typing in all caps is the same as SHOUTING YOUR WHOLE POST AT EVERYONE. Thanks.

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 1:56PM CST: mr_know_it_all-----you are a simple person, huh? I like it.

Ted Haggard April 28, 2009 1:57PM CST: SHELLIE, Thanks for educating the uniformed that GOD wrote the Bible. I know it is true because God actually told me just that during one of my methamphetamine induced, man-on-man sexually immoral episodes, which I’ve now been cured of through prayer, by the way. In fact, God told me that he wrote the Bible with a standard #2 pencil on the back of a paper napkin while eating chicken wings at Hooters. Since he wasn’t exactly sure which text he liked more, he wrote several Bibles leaving out whole books in some cases, and changing major portions of text in others. He gave me the pencil he used as a memento and gift in appreciation of representing the traditional Christian values our country was founded upon. Unfortunately, I gave that pencil to my male prostitute in exchange for sex and drugs, but I’m sure he still has it somewhere. Thou shalt not covet they neighbors man-servant.

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 1:58PM CST: Also, I was unaware that it was possible to SHOUT via a keyboard. Whatever, I will play nice.

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 1:68PM CST: mr_know_it_all: That sounds like something Bullwinkle would say. Shows the mentality.

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 2:00PM CST: BTW – Love Ted Haggard.

Mnhilbil April 28, 2009 2:01PM CST: I’m proud to be a white, heterosexual American dad. Do we get a pride day? Also, after they get married, are they called Mr. and Mr. Smith? Or does one assume the Mrs. role? Just curious.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 2:04PM CST: Mat, I will agree that empirical evidence suggests that life forms on this planet evolve, but to further infer that we and every living life form on this earth came from the same pile of goo under a rock is the real stretch…off topic, but you mentioned this in one of your posts.

Ken Siefert April 28, 2009 2:06PM CST: Mnhilbil, the only problem with your suggestion is that if you do have a white/hetero/American male day you will be called a bigot, a racist, or worse…same suggestion to you that I mentioned earlier: fly above it.

Lindy Lu April 28, 2009 2:21PM CST: @4hm, Marriage is for procreation? What about the people who get married and CAN’T have children? Your comment does not make sense!

Socialsitsforobama April 28, 2009 2:36PM CST: I met Bill once through Paul Ardekani; both wonderful men who love the cause. Keep fighting boys!

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 2:43PM CST: Ted Haggard--- Please don’t misquote me. I never said that God wrote the Bible. I said the Bible is God’s word. You were so eager to jump on the bash Jesus bandwagon you obviously did not read what I typed. And, although me believing in the Bible may should funny to you, friend, that is exactly what faith is.

St Steven April 28, 2009 2:51PM CST: It’s difficult to read the hateful, ignorant posts here.

But, you know what? I take comfort in the fact that the lunatic right-wing fringe of Bible literalists is a dying breed. Slowly their numbers decrease. Hatred, bigotry, intolerance and anti-intellectualism are losing movements, folks.

And for those of you who say that being gay is a choice, you’re just plain wrong. My uncle was gay, and while proud, told me that if he HAD a choice, he would have been straight.

Those of us who accept all peaceful and liberty-loving people regardless of their race, gender, religion, orientation, etc. must remain firm---our foes will self-immolate on their altar of hatred.

Bud Fan April 28, 2009 2:52PM CST: I think all of you zealots who try to speak for God have a lot more to worry about on Judgment Day than gay people do. And marriage is a CIVIL institution, not just a religious institution. We are all paying taxes to support civil marriage, therefore we shouldn’t discriminate. Don’t worry, though, gay people marrying won’t affect your heterosexual marriage.

DT April 28, 2009 2:54PM CST: Ok, folks, let’s look at this with a little intelligence and logic. I f you are sleeping with someone that is the same sex as you are, then surely to goodness you cannot think there is anything at all natural about this. At its very base level, just check the plumbing. Now, if after this very simple check you still believe you are right, then it seems the thing to do is seek some really good help. And, most importantly, do not at any cost expose my children to this sickness!

Glass Houses April 28, 2009 2:57PM CSTB: “When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a communist. When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a social democrat. When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade unionist. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak out; I was not a Jew. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.” Friedrich Gustav Martin Niemöller’s words, uttered more than 50 years ago.

St Steven April 28, 2009 3:00PM CST: DT—Check the plumbing? Are you serious? You’re right, I should respect the opinions of individuals who use childish euphemisms for human sexual organs as authoritative.

For the record, there are other species who engage in homosexual activity. Is that “unnatural?” Are they going to doggie hell?

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 3:01PM CST: Glass Houses: Here – Here!!!

Notoes4 April 28, 2009 4:02PM CST: I have been married five years and anyone who chooses to live in agony the same way, more power to them. NO ONE TAKES MARRIAGE SERIOUS ANYMORE, ANYWAYS _ THANT IS WHY IT ONLY TAKES MONEY TO GET MARRIED.

Marysme April 28, 2009 3:06PM CST: Ted – Hilarious. Of all the posts, yours is by far the most entertaining.

JakeDaSnake April 28, 2009 3:15PM CST: Can someone please tell me what the sanctity of marriage means to an atheist. If it is a religious sacrament, shouldn’t we be stopping them from getting married too? Not to mention denying all their governmental rights of the married couple?

Ophelia J. Barnswallow April 28, 2009 3:17PM CST: You all might think I’m kidding about this, but I am very serious! I think all people should be able to experience misery and hopelessly trapped feeling of being married. Come on in…the water is fine!

Marysme April 28, 2009 3:17PM CST: On a serious note though. I have a 16-year old daughter who is a lesbian. Despite what you might believe, she was neither mentally or physically or sexually abused. She has had a good life with parents who love her very much. She is at the top of her class in school so I’m pretty sure there is no brain damage. If it makes you feel better to blame your prejudices on the Bible, then go for it. But I personally have no doubt that my daughter will go extremely far in this life and the next.

Jake DaSnake April 28, 20093:21PM CST: I am just wondering what the difference is between disobeying God’s teachings and not believing in God at all. We do not persecute atheists. Why do we persecute gays/lesbians? Which is the bigger “sin?”

Ken Siefert April 28, 20093:24PM CST: As I said earlier marysme, anyone who claims to know “God” is a liar….we are all working from the same premise….

Stl supporter April 28, 20093:27PM CST: St. Louis would have more progressive professionals living and working here if they felt they could be who they are…like Donius, Haller, Mooney and Block. In the book titled, “The Rise of the Creative Class” the author demonstrates that the more progressive cities ultimately do better in every way.

St. Louis is a great and welcoming city in most respects. In fact, it is such a great city that most of its residents have never lived anywhere else. Too bad. If they had they would have learned that people are better educated about diversity and tolerance in other cities because they have actually met and experienced friendships with people that are different from themselves.

Some St. Louisans need to broaden their horizons and step into the 21st century where diversity is viewed as a plus and not a minus.

Jdub1994 April 28, 2009 3:34PM CST: Mat – I think I saw some seagulls wearing biker shorts the other day. Sorry.

Jenniferwhatis April 28, 2009 3:38PM CST: Check the plumbing? Are you serious? You’re right; I should respect the opinions of individuals who use childish euphemisms for human sexual organs as authoritative.

THIS! Thanks, St. Steve…

The human body and human sexuality is so much more complicated and involved than these trite things some of you are espousing. If you DO believe we are created by God and we are made in His image and we are more special than other animals then the things you are saying about how people feel and relate to their mates sexually does not fit!

Jenniferwhatis April 28, 2009 3:41PM CST: From what I have seen on TV, lesbians are in fact the ugliest women I have ever seen.

Lesbians on television are as distorted as every other woman.

Nrthsdr34 April 28, 2009 3:45PM CST: Wow about 200 posters on here need to take a breath. We are talking about 1% of the population.

Instead why don’t you get angry about 89% of GM is now owned by union labor and the federal government. Do I now get a free car since taxpayers own 50% of GM? I want my Obama buck to fill up one way or another before we collapse like Spain and the rest of Europe. Socialism seems to be working out great for them. Smoke and mirrors our politicians have us arguing over minority waste of time issues while they destroy the America our grandparents died for…dumb, dumb cattle we are.

Mat April 28, 2009 3:47PM CST: DT wrote: “OK folks, let’s look at this with a little intelligence and logic. If you are sleeping with someone that is the same sex as you are, then surely to goodness you cannot think there is anything at all natural about this. At its very base level, just check the plumbing.” That sort of facile, “gee whiz, it ain’t that complicated” argument sounds good on the surface, and it feels good too, but it only reveals your ignorance – in this case, of the multifarious nature of human sexuality. It’s not just about “the plumbing;” there are a number of physiological factors that figure into maleness and femaleness. All of these are expressed to different degrees in different individuals.

The brand of argument you make seems to be a staple of the conservative right, but it is anti-intellectual to the core. I must admit, though, it was funny when Phil Harman used it for his Unfrozen Cave Man Lawyer character.

St Steven April 28, 2009 3:52PM CST: LOCAL BOY, 14, CHOOSES HETEROSEXUALITY

By St. Steven, special to the Local Daily World

ST. LOUIS—John Smith is a typical teenage boy. He likes sports, video games, and frequently sends his mother to the grocery store for more food.

Recently, he made an important decision: he decided to be straight.

“I thought about it real long and hard,” Smith, 14 said. “It’s a big decision.”

Traci Smith, John’s mother, was supportive. “We just love him for who he is—no matter what sexual orientation he would have chosen,” she said. “David (John’s father) and I both knew what it was like when WE decided to be straight, and I know that it is a very difficult decision.”

As to why he did not choose to be gay, Smith had this to say: “I don’t know, really. I mean, the thought of getting taunted and beat up all the time at school sounded really swell and all, but I just decided that being straight sounded cooler.”

Smith said it was the hardest decision he’s made in his young life. “It would have been a whole lot easier if I could just wake up one day, and “know” what my orientation was, you know? Like a natural feeling. Unfortunately, it’s a completely abstract and logical process.”

USF1965 April 28, 2009 3:55PM CST: DANO, TOLERANCE OF WHAT? PERVERSION. GIVE ME A BREAK! I DON’T CARE HOW LONG YOU HAVE BEEN HETERO. TOLERANCE DOES NOT MEAN TOLERANCE OF ANYTHING THAT COMES YOUR WAY. HAVE SOME PRINCIPLES OR COME OUT OF THE CLOSET AND TELL YOUR WIFE YOU’RE SWITCHING OVER TO THE TOLERANT SIDE.

Jenniferwhatis April 28, 2009 3:56PM CST: mr_­know_it_all: stop being a tard

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 4:02PM CST: Those who are against gay marriage have yet to come up with any kind of valid argument. They claim that gays are trying to “re-define” marriage for them, when they are doing the exact same thing by trying to define marriage to suit their agenda. I am tired of the Jesus freaks pushing their religion onto others. You do not have the right to run my life.

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 4:05PM CST: Jcvinnie seems to think that all gays were abused or neglected. I think jcvinnie is the one who suffered abuse and neglect; this is why jcvinnie is acting out towards others. I am gay and I was NOT abused nor was I every neglected. I grew up in with a mom and dad who were good parents.

Walker studio April 28, 2009 4:09PM CST: Ajwolf1973, Well said. I don’t see how someone can say their marriage is affected by that of someone else. If my neighbor marries his car, I’m still just as married to my wife as I was before. What should we care?

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 4:11PM CST: Marriage was not designed for procreation. SEX was designed for procreation. Should people who are sterile not be allowed to marry? The religious right goes on and on about what marriage is. Who the hell are they to push their views on everyone else. This is not a theocracy, this is a DEMOCRACY.

Usf1965 April 28, 2009 4:30PM CST: Ajwolf1973, It seems your side, whatever that is, is trying to push its values on the majority. This country has undeniable fundamental values and the gay lifestyle is not one of them. Now tolerance of different lifestyles is something completely separate. If you want to be gay so be it. Don’t ask society to recognize that as legit to get tax breaks, etc. I think society wants to stand for traditional lifestyle not supporting everything on everyone’s agenda.

Ted April 28, 2009 4:35PM CST: Haggard, you give Ted’s a good name. The conservative religious folks just hate this topic because it brings up their senators who pick up young men in airport bathrooms and the like. Isn’t it better to be out in the open?

Marysme April 28, 2009 4:35PM CST: People are people. Everyone should have the same rights regardless of race, religion, sexual preference, or IQ for that matter. Gay people aren’t asking for more than straight people. They are asking for the same as each and every one of you have.

MilMan April 28, 2009 4:36PM CST: Every single person on this blog knows that homosexuality is wrong and it is not hidden out of fear of reprisal…it is hidden out of shame, which is what we feel when we know that we are doing something wrong. Adultery is wrong, fornication is wrong, pedophilia is wrong, bestiality is wrong, it is all wrong, and what do they have in common? Everyone feels the need to hide it because of shame. Ask an adulterer. Ask a fornicator. Ask a drunk. We hide things that we know are wrong. If we know we are right we do what we do and we don’t care what others think or say. Stop blaming God and Christians for feeling shame. Your shame is your cross to bear because of your behavior. My shame is my shame to bear because of my behavior. Quit projecting your shame on everyone else and quit whining about it. We are adults and we need to lie in the bed that we make for ourselves. If you have chosen this path, and yes, you have chosen it, then accept that it may not be the easiest path to trod. Quit blaming. Black, white, gay, straight, take responsibility for the choices you make. Maybe instead of trying to change everyone else you need to look in the mirror. Also, not one single person has commented on the Obama stance on this issue…he is with me and the majority of Americans on this issue…so maybe I will put it on all caps: OBAMA BELIEVES THAT MARRIAGE SHOULD BE BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN. HE HAS SAID THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN PUBLICALLY. SINCE IT MAKES ME A HOMOPHOBE, DID YOU ALSO VOTE A HOMOPHOBE INTO OFFICE? IF HE SAID IT JUST TO BE ELECTED, THEN HE LIED. SO, DID YOU VOTE FOR A HOMOPHOBE OR A LIAR? PLEASE, MY GAY FRIENDS, DO YOU THINK OBAMA IS A HOMOPHOBE SINCE HE DOESN’T AGREE THAT GAYS SHOULD MARRY?

Citywise April 28, 2009 4:44PM CST: Look. The fact remains that homosexuals are your friends, neighbors, service providers, spiritual leaders, defenders, politicians, brothers and sisters, not to mention sons and daughters. I think Mr. Donius’ etal’s point is that if people are honest about who they are that most people are much less likely to discriminate against someone they respect for entirely different reasons – realizing they are not this abstract scourge of “gays” but people with whom you already live your daily lives (perhaps without realizing it). Because heterosexuality is the overwhelming norm there is not expectation that someone must come out as straight. Homosexual people have to “come out” in every new situation where it comes up. Most gay people I know state it very matter of fact-ly only when it is in the context of a conversation, not to beat it over anyone’s head. The fact that two heterosexuals can sit in a booth in a restaurant and make out is tolerated and homosexuals engaging in the same distasteful public display need to fear for their lives is more than a hypocritical double-standard – it’s terribly unjust.

As for marriage (not even the point of the article), why the hell should anyone care who is married to whom? There’s no shortage of baby making going on so why limit it to only those who have that potential. Giving two committed people of whatever gender the same ability to own property, take tax advantage, and make life and death health decisions for one another shouldn’t be of anyone’s concern but the two people involved.

USF1965 April 28, 2009 4:45PM CST: MilMan, Nicely said.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 4:49PM CST: Hey – Shellie (1 of 3),

Did you really answer all my questions? I must have missed the one about why God doesn’t restore limbs. I guess the “I don’t know everything” card will have to do. I supposed that with your personal connection to God, you could easily find out…by asking! So, while you don’t know about miracle cures, you seem to know a lot about other miracles, especially that reward of everlasting life in Heaven if you meet all the right conditions. And you seem to think you know what they are. How did you verify that Heaven actually exists and the necessary conditions, again? Was it just hearsay, or was it something I can verify, too?

Also, I don’t understand: If God and Jesus have unconditional love for you (and me) why are there conditions to gain entry into Heaven? Why would they even make the rules up like that? Actually, I can tell you: Heaven is just a make-believe place created by the ancient social engineers to get people to “follow the rules” the engineers thought were best at the time. This is a common tactic employed not just by Heavenly Fathers and creative social engineers controlling them, but also by politicians, businesses, tyrants, and parents since the beginning of time. There is no reason, and no evidence (certainly none that I’ve seen) that suggests otherwise. No genuine evidence, that is. Maybe you have some? In any event, modern society (perhaps through liberal social engineers and activist judges) have decided that some ancient behaviors are no longer valid. So now we don’t have slavery, do have employment on the Sabbath, and don’t stone adulterers…at least not among what, I hope you agree, is regarded as “civil society”.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 4:49PM CST: Hey---Shellie (2 of 3),

“Why not try Jesus?” you asked. I already have! I found plenty of value in his teachings, particularly about how to get along with each other more peacefully, tolerance, love, forgiveness, etc. I also found plenty of bogus and hocus pocus, like the false promises of prayer, and the various “miracles.” And there are the innumerable inconsistencies, all leading to the rational conclusion that God and Jesus are just man-made make-believe characters. For instance, the unconditional-love vs. conditional-admittance, God-rains-fire-to-punish and demands-human-sacrifice-to-prove-faith vs. commandments-not-to-kill, promises-that-prayers-are-fulfilled vs. undetectable-performance, intimate-involvement-in-the-affairs-of-humanity-until-sending-his-son vs. total-silence-since.

“Why angry at Christians?” you asked. You got that impression? Ok, there is an element of anger, but also of pity, shame, disapproval, and disappointment. You have probably read my desire for evidence that supports your beliefs. I’m disappointed that none is ever offered. I pity folks who believe that outrageous claims are genuine without a shred of evidence. Shame that humanity hasn’t outgrown its ignorance. Disapproval when ignorance is displayed with pride. And angry when misguided and self-righteous do-gooders have a hand at setting public policy which occasionally affects me, but often affects individuals and groups I care about.

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 4:50PM CST: “What have I got to lose by believing if this is a sham?” you asked. First, you become a tool for whoever is speaking about what God and Jesus wants from you. Since you have no basis for effectively evaluating the veracity of their claims (or those made in your little collection of morality booklets), you are vulnerable to whatever they happen to be peddling. Often it involves money changing hands, but sometimes it is a service you provide so that money changes between the hands of others, sometimes it involves adding your voice to a multitude to constrain the freedom of choice of other folks when it’s none of your business (like today’s “gays sin and shouldn’t marry” issue), and sometimes it means risking our life in a war.

Also, you abandon some of your ability to think for yourself. Why would you do that? Do you really need a magical super-being to tell you what’s right and what’s wrong? Why have you bought in to a confusing and inconsistent tapestry of beliefs, behaviors, and promises without the work of rational thought? Why would you sell your soul without a shred of legitimate evidence?

538ev April 28, 2009 4:55PM CST: When divorce is illegal and adultery (among other spousal misdeeds) is criminalized, then people can talk about the so-called “sanctity of marriage.” Until then, MYOB. If two gay people want to get married, it’s none of my business and does not affect me in any way. I don’t think people grasp that marriage really has two distinct components—one is the state-sanctioned component, which provides legal partnership rights and the other is the totally voluntary religious component, which is governed solely by the tenets of the faith in which it is granted. Even if gay marriage were legal, if your church doesn’t believe in gay marriage, your church will not have to provide or recognize gay marriage, just like the Catholic Church will not provide or recognize marriages between divorced people etc. But you have no moral or legal right to force your religious beliefs on everyone else through legislation denying the civil component of marriage to gays and lesbians. You have to wonder whether the people who are most “threatened” by gay marriage are suffering from their own inadequacies or inner conflicts about their sexuality. There really isn’t any other explanation for having such strong feelings about something that won’t actually affect their own lives.

USF1954 April 28, 2009 5:03PM CST: Citywise, do you really think most people do not know who among them is gay? Come on, it is usually easy to pick up on after a certain amount of exposure even with the most reserved gay people. Most straight people ignore it as long as the gay people don’t infringe with their blatant gayness. Only hoosiers and hetero’s think PDA is cool. Marriage is legally recognized in our civilized society as one thing. Don’t beat it over our heads trying to redefine it. Society should recognize marriage as one thing not some open topic for discussion.

Jenniferwhatis April 28, 2009 5:07PM CST: “We hide things that we know are wrong. If we know we are right we do what we do and we don’t care what others think or say.”

Uh, this would be the definition of an “out” gay person.

“Out” gay people know they are doing what is right and they don’t care what others think or say.

Exactly who is hiding but people specifically like (the real) Ted Haggard?

And MilMan, a LOT more uneducated people swept up in some sort of fervor voted for Obama than gay people. THEY are responsible – the ones that couldn’t answer a specific question on state, federal or world government and economic conditions now that he is elected. THAT was all that was important.

It was very well known pre-election in the gay community that Obama was not pro equal marriage. But that goes to show you that this is not every gay person’s agenda. Isn’t that weird? They’re like REAL people! They care about other things like cancer research or gun control or tax reform. Imagine that!

Lajr56 April 28, 2009 5:08 PM CST: Milman, this is a front page article. Bill is not hiding. I do not know what you claim I know. I know nothing of the sort.

538ev April 28, 2009 5:10PM CST: After reading all these comments I am more convinced than ever that homophobia is inversely proportional to the amount of confidence a person has in his own sexual identity. Otherwise, what are they so afraid of? Other people having good relationships? Ooo, scary stuff!

Cato64 April 28, 2009 5:11PM CST: For all the Christian posters here, I have two questions for you. 1: Do you ever reminisce with fond remembrance of your sexual escapades before you were married? (or even while you were married). 2. Are you for the war in Iraq? (or any other war, EVER, for that matter). If you answered yes to either, then you are as big of a sinner as any homosexual. Jesus was the ultimate pacifist and to be saved you must TRULY regret your sins.

Stlfan_pah April 28, 2009 5:14PM CST: 538ev, The moral conflict seed was planted by our forefathers, in the sense that this nation became one, under God, with liberty and justice for all. Add in the fact people absolutely do not understand separation of church and state, and oxymorons abound. So, since I am a person of faith… the following. Divorce is not illegal per the Bible. Adultery is a sin, not only in act, but thought. The act of homosexuality is considered an abomination in the Bible. Of course, if you do not believe in what the scripture says, i.e. non-believer, then that doesn’t apply to you. Too many people like you want to sit back and let things happen. The what’s good for me society, and if it doesn’t affect me, then I’m fine with it. Bull. Actions and inactions on your part affect you in every way possible whether you like it or not. To quote from a song, “if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” I choose not to accept something that, physically makes no sense to me, and doesn’t have the support from scripture. And no, I don’t struggle with my sexuality, so don’t stereotype with a broad claim. You may sound intelligent to some, but not me. I had a gay male roommate for a year. He is a friend, and a child of God, and I will care for him just as God would. But, and he knows it, I despise and reject his lifestyle. The funny thing???? I firmly believe most gay people know it’s wrong. But, as people tend to do, they will justify their wrong-doings by trying to point out, it doesn’t hurt anything, it’s my business, we are loving people, blah blah blah. You know, there are criminals out there that justify their crimes, murder, stealing, etc. with warped senses of logic. Yet, we condemn their actions. Steal from the rich and give to the poor. Sounds noble. But, wrong is wrong is wrong. Therefore, I do not have to accept homosexuality as normal, or want it in the society I live in.

Citywise April 28, 2009 5:15PM CST: USF1965, not every homosexual man is a fashion designer and not every lesbian plays softball and rides horses. The point is that you would be surprised. As a matter of fact, if all gay men are so fashion conscious I don’t think Mr. Donius would be wearing pleated pants in that photo – not de rigueur these days for the fashion conscious gentlemen.

Some people do conform to stereotypes – that’s why they exist. But not everyone living north of Delmar is a thug nor everyone living in Jefferson County is Bible-thumping trailer trash, but narrow minds who think they can identify all gay people might believe so.

---SHELLIE April 28, 2009 5:16PM CST: mydogshakespeare, Obviously this convo could go on and on and on and on. I won’t change your mind nor will you change mine. Let’s agree to disagree. This was never meant to be an argument anyhow, I simply stated my opinion, you stated yours and we don’t agree, and that’s fine, one of the wonderful things about being an American. I do however thoroughly enjoy debating with you. See you on the next post. Have a great evening. Shellie

Mydogshakespeare April 28, 2009 5:17PM CST: Hey MilMan, After all your incessant preaching about the “sin” of “gay sex,” could you wax a bit about “incest?”

Milman April 28, 2009 5:20PM CST: lajr56, Bill on the front page is a grown man who needs validation for his behavior and who is being used as propaganda for the gay cause. It is that simple. Cato64, poor argument…sin is sin and because we all sin it doesn’t make sin okay. Jesus made a whip and drove people out of the temple and turned tables over. Jesus referred to people as hypocrites and “broods of vipers.” Jesus sacrificed His life for others, like those in Iraq have…but He was far from a pacifist. Jesus was God in the flesh and God destroyed entire populations for disobedience. Weak Jesus is a misconception that is promoted even by the church.

53Bev April 28, 2009 5:21PM CST: stifan_pah, I am thrilled beyond belief that you do not respect what I have to say. Your selective interpretation of American history and Biblical scholarship is typical of the right-wing, religious-zealot, anti-intellectual movement that is destroying this country, and I want no part of that.

Cato64 April 28, 2009 5:28PM CST: Turn the other cheek my brother.

Cato64 April 28, 2009 5:36PM CST: To be absolved of your sins you must be sincere in your regret.

JTnCALI April 28, 2009 5:40PM CST: Come on. I am tired of hearing I am gay. Who gives a flock. Keep your personal business personal. I don’t care nor do I want to know if jimbob is marinating his meat whistle in you or vice versa. It is ok for you to be gay, it is not ok for me nor my boys to be gay.

Cato64 April 28, 2009 5:52PM CST: MilMan, Yes Jesus made mistakes, he was human, but you reference both the Old Testament and the New. Jesus was ANTI-Old Testament, which is one of the reasons why the Jewish did not like him. (To put it mildly.) MESSAGE FROM JESUS – No more eye for an eye…all you need is love.

Mat April 28, 2009 6:07PM CST: Everyone do yourself a favor and stop debating with MilMan…he’s not going to change.

Citywise, I’ve been trying to come up with an in-context joke about Mr. Donius’ suit and (too-long) tie since this morning. Well done. (Nothing personal, Mr. Donius, you look much better than I.)

For all the people who are convinced that homosexuality is an abomination: I used to think so too. It took exposure to other view points from people whose opinions I respected to lead me to decide that my reasoning was unfounded (on this and several other issues). I would encourage you at least to avail yourself of data that comes from other than religious sources. What could it hurt? Isn’t God big enough to withstand your curiosity? If it turns out you were right, at least you’ll be able to make better arguments than the lunacy I’ve seen here today (I’m looking at you, MilMan and USF1965).

Shelley Powers April 28, 2009 6:07PM CST: USF1965, Let’s convert your post to being about another minority, ‘Why is anyone who comes out in favor of civil rights newsworthy?” So what! Being white is what’s normal. I don’t care how far back you can find someone who went off the plantation to be black. Why does the media have to force this crap down our throats to try and get the majority of Americans to support a minority. Just because people want to be recognized as equal does not mean it should be done. One thing is for sure even if you get our left leaning politicians to bend over and agree it does not mean the majority will ever agree. I think that is the example of the vote in (fill in state). Black and civil rights favoring legislators introduce and traditional citizens reject.’

How does it sound to you?

Shelley Powers April 28, 2009 6:15PM CST: “usernametaken, Just look at Shelly’s comments…victimization, bigotry, oppression. Sheesh, was a sad song playing in the background when you were typing up this drivel?

You love being a victim and you love having a non-existent power to fight. That’s it.”

Hard to tell exactly what you’re saying here, your comments are confused and muddled, but I’m assuming you think that the only reason I’m supportive of gays, and angry about the bigotry of the comments in this post is because I’m gay.

I’m not gay. I just grew up actually believing all the good things about this country. Following this early belief, support for gays was a given.

MilMan April 28, 2009 6:43PM CST: Mat, So, people shouldn’t talk to me because I am not going to change? Typical. Gay people want to change everyone. Why won’t gay people leave heterosexuals alone? Why won’t gay people leave children, schools, colleges, churches, government alone? As I said gay people are the most intolerant people I have ever met. I am thankful for this article and these posts. This forum has been great for exposing homosexuals’ intolerance for other views.

Jenniferwhatis April 28, 2009 6:56PM CST: “So, people shouldn’t talk to me because I am not going to change?”

I have to agree with MilMan on this. I always hate it when people say that…now Mr-know-it-all was just trolling-that’s different.

Cato64 April 28, 2009 7:07PM CST: Thanks for the info mat.

Cato64 April 28, 2009 7:20PM CST: Intolerance can be debated, ignorance cannot.

Stl supporter April 28, 2009 7:35PM CST: There obviously needs to be a dialogue on this topic as it simply does not occur often enough.

As a consequence heterosexuals simply don’t understand gays and lesbians any better than they understood blacks through the 1960s! The only difference is that blacks could not hide whereas most gays and lesbians can hide. And no wonder that they want to in STL with so many they are unwilling to accept anyone that is not exactly like they are…come on!

Let’s join the 21st century in STL!!! Grow up and get educated people!!!

Mat April 28, 2009 7:58PM CST: Sorry MilMan, I should have been more specific. What I meant was that appeals to reason are wasted on you, because you don’t appear interested in hearing them. For instance, you purported to explain why homosexuality could not possibly be influenced by genetics, citing some nonsense (and I use the word precisely) about recessive genes. When I asked about the possibility that it could be influenced by x-linked alleles, you replied: ‘X linked allele typically cause hemophilia, not homosexuality. If it were genetic…it would be recessive, no matter the debate.’ To the extent that sense can be drawn from this statement, it is completely wrong, but you maintain your position in the face of empirical evidence that can be accessed in minutes on the Internet. You then finish with ‘no matter the debate,’ as if wishing it would make it so.

The only other authorities you’ve citied are the Bible and your alleged experience counseling ‘several’ homosexuals. You should know that, by any criterion of reasoned debate, this makes you sound unreasonable at best, stupid at worst. If you want (smart) people to take you seriously, you have to make certain concessions to the parameters of reasonable discussion. You seem manifestly unwilling to subject yourself to reasonable restraint, so there is no point engaging in debate with you.

So why did I just write a book explaining that? So that others like you who read this will understand the frustration that comes from dealing with people who are incapable of intelligent discussion. It makes me so mad I could kiss two guys. Or watch two guys kisslng…

Cheryl Laut April 28, 2009 8:14PM CST: To all those who believe that homosexuality is a ‘choice,’ I’d like to know at what point in your life you sat down to decide your own preferences. Funny but I don’t remember ever making a choice to be heterosexual…or to prefer short, stocky men with dark hair over their taller, lighter-haired counterparts. Imprint.

Jenniferwhatis April 28, 2009 8:27PM CST: “So why did I just write a book explaining that? So that others like you who read this will understand the frustration that comes from dealing with people who are incapable of intelligent discussion”. See, that was a lucid explanation for why people may not want to debate or respond to people like you, MilMan, and SAF and others. And MilMan, why would gayness have to be recessive? There are PLENTY of gay people with children. That doesn’t even make sense. Being gay isn’t a new phenomenon. Where do you think all the homos were early in the last century? They were MARRIED WITH CHILDREN!

J R April 28, 2009 8:27PM CST: Sheesh.

Mydogshakespeare, sorry, not giving details about myself.

Protecting marriage matters for a few reasons. It’s insipid to think that because I believe mothers and fathers both matter to kids that I’m a bigot.

Two men might each be a good father, but neither can be a mom. The ideal for children is the love of their own mom and dad. No same-sex couples can provide that.

Why would we want society to promote to children the idea that either mothers or fathers are dispensable and unimportant?

LavaDog-your earlier post presumes that all Old Testament laws are the same (i.e. laws against homosexual behavior – laws against eating certain foods), which is false. They are not the same sort of laws.

Cr8rt April 28, 2009 9:02PM CST: My God just advised me that love is universal and the backwards bigoted folks can’t help it when they cling to fear and brainwashing for cash driven pulpits. My God doesn’t need money weekly nor does she understand how so called Christian people support war and the death penalty, and refuse to adopt special needs children, conceived, abused and abandoned by straight people. My God loves all, even the ignorant and home schooled.

MilMan April 28, 2009 9:02PM CST: Mat, I’m not arrogant enough to think that I am always right, however, I am right about this. If my confidence irks you or my desire for brevity in my answering is not acceptable, well, not much I can say about it. Being verbose does not necessarily make one right…some people may fall for that, others, like me, see right through it. Still no one replying about OBAMA SUPPORTING MARRIAGE BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN ONLY? THE MAJORITY OF AMERIANS SUPPORT THIS CONSERVATIVE VIEW, FOLKS. Thanks for the discussion…Have a good one.

Mat April 28, 2009 9:03PM CST: JR , It’s hard to argue with your statement that the ‘ideal’ circumstance is for a child to be raised with a mother and a father, but that assumes a lot of variables, including parental competence, parental commitment, and parental means. As you know, parents fall at every point on the spectrum. In this context of adoption, we could add parental presence. If a loving homosexual couple with means, commitment, and competence wants to adopt a child, why should we stand in their way? It seems immoral to prevent a baby from finding a loving home based solely on broad, summary beliefs about the morality of a particular sexual orientation.

I think a lot of people (not necessarily JR) who have a notion that a homosexual environment would unduly imperil children need to spend a Saturday night in a pediatric emergency room. Your view of parental competence will be better involved.

Jenniferwhatis April 28, 2009 9:17PM CST: “Still no one replying about OBAMA SUPPORTING MARRIAGE BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN ONLY? THE MAJORITY OF AMERICAN SUPPORT THIS CONSERVATIVE VIEW, FOLKS! Thanks for the discussion. Have a good one.” I answered you but I guess it wasn’t what you expected so you ignored it, no?

Citywise April 28, 2009 9:17PM CST: I wish I was as articulate as Mat. Thanks for saying everything better than I could (especially in regard to parenting).

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 9:28PM CST: You people need to stop using the Bible to defend your homophobia. Your interpretation of the Bible is not the same as everyone else’s. The Bible is a translation of a translation, so if you think you have the corner on what the Bible says, you are sorely mistaken. Besides that, you have no right to shove your religious views down my throat. America was founded on the principle that people have the right to religious freedom, not the right to force their religious views on others. If you wanna force your religion on others go live in a Muslim country where you can have religion forced on you in every aspect of your life.

Mat April 28, 2009 9:47PM CST: MilMan wrote: “If my confidence irks you or my desire for brevity in my answering is not acceptable, well, not much I can say about it.”

MilMan, you’re an idiot. This conversation with you is a vehicle for some points I wanted to make about people like you.

As for the Obama question – and it’s a good one – I think that it was a simple matter of pragmatism. No way he risks losing the swing vote over something like gay marriage. So yes, I think he was lying. But I don’t view it with the same sanctimony as others. It was an unfortunate necessity. Of course, this is just speculation on my part; I have no idea. By the way, if you voted, you voted for a liar too.

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 9:50PM CST: USF1965, I have EVERY right for my relationship to be recognized by the government and to receive benefits that any other couple would receive. You have no right to tell me that my relationship is not “traditional” enough for you. If you don’t like my being gay, that’ your prerogative, but doesn’t mean you can take my rights away.

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 9:57PM CST: The Bible NEVER condemns gays or gay marriage. There is no word for homosexuality in the original, ancient Hebrew text. The Bible makes NO reference to homosexuals as we know them today, nor as they exist in every living species. Malachi and Arsenokotai are not synonymous with homosexual. The former were simply debauched individuals, and the latter were probably male prostitutes or those given to anal intercourse, which is not necessarily or exclusively homosexual activity. Leviticus condemns sex as a religious crime of idolatry, not as a sexual offense. Romans suggested that sex acts have no ethical significance whatsoever. Corinthians and Timothy objected to specific forms of male prostitution. These books do not refer to homosexuality. They make a general condemnation of moral looseness, lewd, lustful and lascivious behavior.

Gobler April 28, 2009 10:02PM CST: Hate the sin love the sinner. Why do we constantly have to be told all the details of a sex life for those who claim to be gay? Keep it to yourself if you are gay because all it is saying you have homosexual sex. That really should not be a topic in the newspaper. Why not cover all types of perverted sex acts? You that try to compare gay marriage to voting rights or interracial marriage. Come up with a different argument, that one does not work. When women could not vote or interracial couples could not get married, those were examples of being denied equal access. Two men getting married is not denying equal access, because straight people cannot marry same sex either. Just because one has an urge, does not mean they have to act upon it. Lots of people could have immoral urges but they also have what is known as “self-control”. Maybe the subject of this article should be use a little self-control and not give into such perversion.

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 10:02PM CST: Christian critics of homosexuality rarely mention Jonathan’s homosexual love affair with David (I Samuel 18:20, II Samuel 1), the omission of homosexuality from the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) or Jesus’ omission of any criticism of homosexuality. They see the Bible as a weapon of hate instead of a tool for love. But if homosexuality were such a big concern to Christ, then surely Jesus would have mentioned it and someone would have recorded it. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus take up the issue. Instead, when asked to choose the greatest of the commandments (Matthew 22:36), he explains the greatest commandment is to love. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18:19) is often cited to show God’s dislike for homosexuality, but this too oversimplifies the biblical text. It’s hard to figure out who the good guys are in this story because Lot, the supposed hero, pimps his two daughters to the men of the town in exchange for rescuing the two angels who have come to stay with him. It’s also hard to figure out what crime was committed that caused God’s wrath to be brought on the town. If you read the Bible chronologically, then God planned to destroy the city (Genesis 18:20) well before the incident in which the men attempt to rape the angels (Genesis 19:9) suggesting that the attempted rape was not the primary cause of God’s anger. Even if it were the cause, few gays and lesbians would disagree that rape should be condemned, but rape is not the same as homosexuality. And if you read Ezekiel 16:49, God never mentions homosexuality among the list of Sodom’s sins. All together, it’s hardly a compelling case that the story condemns homosexuality.

J R April 28, 2009 10:14PM CST: Laws concerning benefits can be amended without redefining marriage.

Mat, I agree that if a loving gay couple wants to adopt and the parents aren’t in the picture, they should be able to do it. Correct me if I’m wrong, but marriage doesn’t need to be redefined to allow that, right? I’m honestly asking, not trying to sound like a jerk (it’s hard to tell with online comments sometimes! Just wanted to make sure I tried to communicate my sentiment).

It’s not an overstatement that civilizations have been founded on the family structure of children growing up with moms and dads. We already see what challenges children often face when either a mom or dad is absent. This is a reason to strengthen marriage, not to conduct radical social experiments.

I don’t mean ‘radical social experiment’ in a derogatory sense (it may be taken that way anyway, unfortunately). I mean that in the sense that no past civilization has redefined the family structure provided by marriage to include more than one male and one female. This would be a radical social experiment.

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 10:28PM CST: Historian John Boswell argued that Adelphopoiesis, or brother-making, represented an early form of religious same-sex marriage in the Orthodox church, and Alan Bray saw the rite of Ordo ad fraters faciendum (“Order for the making of brothers”) as serving the same purpose in the medieval Roman Catholic Church. Same-sex marriage has been documented in many societies that were not subject to Christian influence. In North America, among the Native Americans societies, it has taken the form of two-spirit-type relationships, in which some male members of the tribe, from an early age, heed a calling to take on female gender with all its responsibilities. They are prized as wives by the other men in the tribe, who enter into formal marriages with these two-spirit men. They are also respected as being especially powerful shamans.

J R April 28, 2009 10:31PM CST: ajwolf1973, Gotta take issue with a few of your Bible points there.

Jonathan and David’s relationship in the Bible was not a sexual one. Your assertion that it is does not have support of any serious scholarship. They did love each other like brothers, but that does not presume sex. If anything, David’s problem (which the Bible spares little detail describing!) was too many wives.

Jesus also never directly references homosexual behavior, but he does show support for all the Old Testament law (Matthew 5:17-20). Given the Jewish context in which he ministered, it’s not surprising he didn’t discuss homosexuality; that’d be like suburban American ministers nowadays denouncing horse thieves and train robbery. Not a part of our context.

Jesus does say the greatest commandment is to love, but he goes further. It’s to love God wholly, and to love your neighbor as yourself. Love is not synonymous with allowing someone whatever they desire, that’s actually often contrary to love.

JiffyOnMyBread April 28, 2009 10:45PM CST: I’ve taken the time to read the first 294 comments posted on this article and all I have to say is the following: It amazes me the lack of compassion some people who purport to be Christians have exhibited by making such harsh remarks. I was raised Catholic and the Catholic Church says homosexual people are innately homosexual. It amazes me that people (who I’m sure are nice and respectful to people in their real lives) fail to show that same decency to others when they are typing words on a computer keyboard. It amazes me how people can fail to see the humanity in each other. These gay people just want the same things that heterosexual folks want, a loving lifelong partner, maybe kids, to be respected and trusted by those they know, and to feel like there’s a place in this world for them and their families. And yet, some people on here seem to callously dismiss their pleas for fairness, respect, and justice. I haven’t lived in St. Louis that long. I didn’t grow up here, but I know people here can be nice, respectful, and are willing to go out of their way to help a neighbor (or a stranger), so it surprises me that people commenting on this article can be so cruel in their words. Gay people are already part of our communities, our churches, our schools (as students), and our workplaces. It’s a shame that some people refuse to recognize these facts, but instead render some of their fellow humans as invisible and even unworthy of kindness and respect. These gay people just want respect, would it kill you to offer a little? Telling them they’re an abomination is unfair to them. It dismisses them and their needs as human beings. It seems some people who have commented on here lack a bit if insight. If you’re heterosexual, I’m sure you don’t think twice about mentioning your spouse to friends, co-workers, even strangers you just happen to talk to. And yet some of you have the gall to say you don’t “flaunt” your heterosexuality. I’m sure you’ve never grown up thinking that you couldn’t marry the person you love when the time came. Sometimes I think that it’s the people who are denied marriage that really understand the true significance of matrimony. I’ve never understood why otherwise decent people go out of their way to say something or do something to intentionally hurt another. That’s what you folks who call gay people sinners are doing whether that’s your primary intention or not. It hurts them. Don’t you know you’re harming the gay people who happen to read your comments? Do you not care? Do you think you’re doing them a favor? I’m willing to bet they don’t think you’re doing them a favor. Believe what you want to believe, but they are human and they do have feelings just like you and me. How would you like it if you couldn’t marry the person you consider the love of your life? Wouldn’t it just kill you inside? Wouldn’t you hate it when some random stranger denigrated that relationship, the relationship that means so much to you? It seems the opportunities for love (the romantic kind) come by only so often in life. Why can’t people just love the person they love regardless of gender? Marriage is a civilizing force in society. It provides stability for the married couple both legally and psychologically. It connects that couple to their community. Why would you deny it to others? To me, that seems tragically inhumane.

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 10:48PM CST: Actually the assertions I have made do have the support of many serious scholars.

J R April 28, 2009 10:52PM CST: ajwolf1973 – Please list the scholars, I’m genuinely interested in following up on those.

Ajwolf1973 April 28, 2009 11:26PM CST: Dr. Daniel Helminiak, Rev. Dr. Peter Gomes, Carolyn Dinshaw, John Boswell, Joseph M. Carrier, Stephen O. Murray, and Will Roscoe.

Stl supporter April 29, 2009 12:40AM CST: Well said Jiffyonmybread! Hopefully, actions will speak louder than words. Too often the keyboard is mightier than the sword on these comment blogs.

HRO April 29, 2009 3:31AM CST: First: The Bible was used to support slavery and to pass anti-marriage amendments and laws against interracial couples. Why haven’t we learned yet that just because the Bible says it’s okay to discriminate against a group of people doesn’t mean it is?

Second: The Bible also says that anyone who works on Sunday should be executed, that we can’t touch the skin of a dead pig, eat shellfish, or wear clothing made of two fabrics. You could also sell your daughter into slavery.

Yes, these are all in there. Gee, it seems like a bunch of cafeteria Christians picking and choosing which rules to follow based on their own wants and beliefs and not their “religion’s”. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWqgD71GneU&feature=player_embedded

Great little video for you to watch about that.

Third: Let’s not forget all in all that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, Buddhism, etc. are all religions (by definition a ‘set of beliefs’). What makes your religion any more true than the others? Because YOU believe? That’s great. But I’ll thank you not to thrust your beliefs upon the rest of us. And could a Christian please explain this to me: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm.

I’m not saying I know where the universe came from, why we’re here, or who/what made humans. But don’t presume to make your belief of what did the LAW in my life.

And lastly: To those people that say marriage is only between one man and one woman and always has been. Please go back to high school and college and pay attention this time.

MANY ancient cultures embraced homosexuality (of course all of them took place before the Big 3 became popular). Marriage in some countries today still have polygany (no, not polygamy). Polygany is one wife and multiple husbands. This is for property reasons. A set of brothers will all marry the same woman and will all have children with her. This way the land is passed along down from generation to generation instead of being split up after a death.

THIS IS STILL GOING ON.

And let’s not forget that homosexuality does in fact occur in nature. Penguins are one of the most notable (and cutest) of the examples. They’re also completely monogamous over their lifetimes. Once they choose a mate, even a same-sex one, they’re together till death does them part.

Ahhhh, Love

Hmmm…Srsly? April 29, 2009 7:53AM CST: No society will last where its citizens, straight or gay, “prefer open relationships with the possibilities of many partners” (quoted from the gay stlstudentdude). Ask any sociologist. I think this is at the heart of society in general not accepting, or certainly not promoting, the gay lifestyle.

Mydogshakespeare April 29, 2009 8:02AM CST: Hey RomansOne, Thanks for your suggestion to investigate the philosophical meanderings of the Molinists. They offer a novel method for categorizing all the stuff God knows. They indicate that God really does not know everything! He doesn’t even know what He’s a gonna do, much less what individual humans are going to do.

Whew! I was afraid I didn’t have free will or the ability to think for myself (because if God already knew, then I would have no such freedom or ability). But now the Molinists demonstrate that God’s knowledge (while still possibly infinite) does not cover everything, and especially not human choices. God has to “go with the flow,” just like the rest of us.

Thanks for the tip!

So, if God isn’t a know-it-all after all, how can anyone say with reliable authority what God does know and whether He’s right or not? After all, taking and keeping slaves was sanctioned Godly behavior up until a couple hundred years ago, and now it’s forbidden (though not by God, by god!) So are we humans wrong about slavery, or was God?

Ohyeah April 29, 2009 8:40AM CST: Me thinks the MODERATOR has a fascination with the back door.

JakeDaSnake April 29, 2009 8:41AM CST: HRO – Exactly!

RBN April 29, 2009 9:00AM CST: Mat, Thank you for your comments, especially about adoption. Everyone just follow the Golden Rule and forget about all this interpretation nonsense. Again thanks Mat, great comments.

Theworldneedsrighting April 29, 2009 9:53AM CST: I wonder where everyone gets the idea that by fighting for rights, a group should have SPECIAL rights. I’m a woman and I don’t think any exceptions should be made for me. I want to have the same rights as men. I think all races should have the same rights. People of all sexual orientations should have the same rights. No one needs MORE rights than anyone else.

That being said, the GLBT community speaks out and shouts its agenda because they do NOT have equal rights. It’s the same as the African-American community pushing for equal rights in the 50s and 60s, and women in the 20s and 70s. They SHOULD talk. Nothing ever changes unless people speak out for change.

And there should be change. Defining a legal marriage based on religion – ANY religion – completely blasts the separation of church and state on which this country was built. Period. If an equal definition of marriage bugs you that much, move to Pakistan where it can be the way you like it.

I can’t believe Missouri still has that antiquated discrimination law on the books. Kill that IMMEDIATELY.

Gbake35 April 29, 2009 9:57AM CST: Who cares what the Bible says? It is just a bunch of made up stories and condemnation made to control society. “Paganism” existed long before the Bible, and its time, as did gay people. It is funny how all these macho personas and religious kooks comment, to the extent, gays are going to Hell. I hate to condemn religion and the religious but they condemn everyone else, so do some research into your faith and if you are still convinced there is a God, then stop misinterpreting the Bible.

Ladont April 29, 2009 11:04AM CST: The sanctity of marriage? Folks, 50% of those sanctified marriages end in divorce. A whole lot of others end in separation or distaste. And even more “enjoy” unfaithful behavior by the husband or the wife. Gays should avoid marriage or they will end up as hateful and miserable as apparently are so many married heterosexuals.

Mat April 29, 2009 1:52PM CST: JR, If I understand you correctly, you’re ok with a gay couple adopting, but not with gay marriage because it “redefines” marriage. Redefining marriage is bad because it upsets the family structure and promotes the idea that mom or dad is indispensable. Your sincere concern for traditional family structure seems inconsistent with your concession that gays should be able to adopt. How will a child benefit emotionally (never mind legally) from being raised by unmarried parents?

What is the benefit of assigning a single definition to marriage? The most common argument I’ve seen is that it avoids the slippery slope that leads inevitable to bestiality or polygamy or whatever. So, the logic goes, we must avoid the evil that would follow anything other than one-man-one-woman marriage.

A look at reality, however, reveals that no matter how marriage is defined by law, its true moral worth is a function of the conduct of married people. Never mind the 50% divorce rate; even among still-married couples there is a disturbing frequency of incompetence, as spouses and especially as parents. So, if our true concern is that we will endanger the supposed sanctity of marriage, with its benefits to society, then isn’t it counter to our efforts to deny the possibility of marriage to those who truly wish to give it a shot? Even if the frequency of marital incompetence among homosexuals is the same as among the rest of us, we’re no worse off, and the total pool of loving parents and spouses is increased. It’s easy to imagine that marriage will indeed be strengthened, not weakened.

One last point – I agree that civilizations have been founded on the family structure of growing up with moms and dads. This, however, is an incident of evolution (pair-bonding, post-gestational extra-uterine development, etc.). We shouldn’t assign moral or eternal value to biological inertia. If we do, we preclude the possible benefits of making decisions based on reason, our most distinctive (and god-like) trait.

Gobler April 29, 2009 2:16PM CST: I have the urge to eat vast amounts of ice cream. I don’t because it would be unhealthy. I use self-control. I do not know why some people have urges to have perverted sex with people of the same sex, but use self-control. Do not give into every urge you have. Lastly, quit talking about it. By “coming out,” you are admitting you have no self-control and are having perverted sex. If a straight person wanted to graphically describe their sex life, it would not be on the front page of the newspaper. Keep your sex info to yourself and no one will bother you.

Champagneu April 29, 2009 2:23PM CST: What is with all of the religious remarks and hate? Wow people. Here is a successful businessman. He’s gay and wants to help gay people. This story should not make anyone angry. It’s a free country. As long as you aren’t hurting anyone, who cares?

Socialsitsforobama April 29, 2009 3:38PM CST: Let’s stop all the hate mail on the comments, can we? Paul Ardenkani, one of Bill’s lifelong friends, told me one time “I dream of the day that I can come out of the closet and just be myself.” Congrats Paul and Bill for your strength!

Hermosagirl April 29, 2009 4:14PM CST: Discrimination toward gays is NOT THE SAME as discriminating against blacks. I was born white and have not suffered racism. But excuse me – haven’t gays always had the right to vote? Never had to sit in the back of the bus? Were never owned by another human being? It is NOT the same. Yes, there is and has been discrimination against gays. But stop comparing your mostly self-imposed experiences with one of the most egregious atrocities in human kind. It’s like comparing it to the Holocaust. There IS no comparison. Period.

Denise Williams April 29, 2009 4:52PM CST: “J R April 27, 2009 11:17 PM CST Gays and lesbians have a right to live as they choose, they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us.” You realize, of course, JR, that this is precisely what heterosexuals have claimed the right to do throughout history, right?

Curmudgeon lady April 29, 2009 4:58PM CST: It has been my observation that most people who dislike gays are men who fear that they, themselves may be homosexuals.

Mississippimama April 29, 2009 7:04PM CST: READ THE BIBLE, WHEN GOD FINISHED MAKING THE WORLD HE CREATED MAN AND WOMAN. THEN DESTROYED THE EARTH OVER SOLOMAN AND HIS LOVER.

Ohyeah April 29, 2009 8:13AM CST: Ladont. You nailed it friend. Marriage isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Think about this. The very moment you say “I do,” you have just given up fifty percent of who you are, or ever were. You are now in a situation of constant compromise. You want a new car, you have to compromise, you want red, spouse wants green, you want a certain model, spouse wants different. You want to go out with friends spouse doesn’t like your choice, you want a Caribbean vacation spouse wants to go to Alaska. I think you get my drift. Your whole life changes in a flash, from making all your own decision to compromise. Is that really what you want. I don’t give a rat’s if you’re gay or straight you really should give it some deep, deep thought before you give up half of who you are, or ever were.

Champagneu April 30, 2009 8:15AM CST: Hermosagirl, I agree with you except for one error you have listed. If you look into your history, we were all slaves at one time or another, you just need to go back further in time. Possibly the Roman era? Or further back…

Ru4real April 30, 2009 8:21AM CST: When is the last time anyone has seen an article or other media presentation that presented homosexuality in ANY kind of negative light? Media is promoting homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle as opposed to the perversion of nature that it is. I could care less about the religious angle that so many are clinging to. My “objection” is that it is against nature, against evolution, and against all of human development. Other than that, it’s great.

Citywise April 30, 2009 11:23AM CST: ru4real please cite scientific references that support your assertions.

I am involved in a number of non-profit organizations. I am very proud to say that many, many of the hardest working and biggest givers are self-identified as gay. Thank you all for making a big difference in making this a better world – even if you are a “perversion of nature.”

Socialsitsforobama April 30, 2009 11:43AM CST: Pankan, you snidely asked what I know about the gay community? I’ll have you know that I’ve known Paul Ardekani for many years now and have been involved in his protests for the rights of gay men like himself on several occasions!

Ted April 30, 2009 11:47AM CST: That curmudgeon lady has it dead on. See cases of Catholic priests and ultra conservative minister types. Case closed. This guy does have some nice furniture though. I believe that I see some Eames in that room.

USF1965 April 30, 2009 12:28PM CST: Citywise, Who cares how much money a “gay” person gives to charity. That is the point. Do what you want (in private) and no one will really care from the hetero side. Bring it out and try to legislate your special rights program and you get what’s coming to you and those on your side. Ajwolf, you already have all the rights I do. Anything beyond is special.

John Beckman April 30, 2009 12:36PM CST: SO NOBODY HERE CARES IF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM STARTS CALLING IT NORMAL AND YOUR KID EMBRACES THAT IDEA AND BECOMES HOMOSEXUAL?

Silverbear_ii April 30, 2009 2:24PM CST: Funny how so many people here have said they have no interest in this article or the subject, yet they took the time to post.

Citywise April 30 2009 2:45PM CST: USF1965, you are right. It shouldn’t matter how much gay people give to charity. I was just sharing my overwhelmingly positive experience with gay people as caring, giving and loving human beings, not “perversions of nature” as has been at the very least inferred by many posters thus far.

I will argue with you though that no one is asking for special rights. If you are a heterosexual man you have the right to marry any woman who might be fool enough to agree and you enjoy a number of rights, protections and responsibilities associated with that. An equally committed same-sex couple has no access to those rights and protections, luckily many already demonstrate the responsibilities without needing a legal document.

And John Beckman, I thought maybe you were being sarcastic and possibly trolling but I have to ask: ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!? I think it is well accepted that people do not have same-sex attractions because other people think it’s okay. Conversely, pounding it into children’s heads that same-sex attraction is wrong has never done anything but create unhappy people, failed marriages and priests.

Socialsitsforobama April 30, 2009 3:47PM CST: To John Beckman, would you say the same thing to a prominent member of the St. Louis gay society’s face? Like Mr. Donius or Paul Ardekani? Both are very gay, and have no problem admitting it. It seems like you are the one with the “problem.”

Armyvet830206 May 1, 2009 9:53AM CST: Wow, this is one topic I’m so tired of hearing about. Everyone can do what they want with their life, that is why we have the right to the pursuit of happiness in this country. Capitalism allows us to freely do what we want with looking for jobs and so forth. But when it comes down to a factor of many things involving homos, it gets downright dirty. Frankly, because people with any real sense know right from wrong, and trying to change marriage that was in existence long before the “legal definition” is plainly wrong. You can’t just reverse more than 2,000 years of tradition and commitment between people who really do love each other and want a family to something the gays want it to be. It’s not right! If gays want to do each other in the behind and if females want to use tools and body parts for ungodly acts, then fine, but it doesn’t mean marriage should become a redefined act so that two people with nasty and unholy acts can marry. I don’t care what they do with their “partners” but leave it out of the spotlight they so seek today. All of us have a right to marry in this country but if you deviate from the natural order of things for a more revolting lifestyle then you shouldn’t be permitted to try and change something that to people like me is very important and sacred. Evil only makes more evil and good makes more good. Sometimes things don’t work out the way we want it to but that’s because people can’t and/or won’t take responsibility for their actions. This is one reason why this country is in such a decline in morals and ethics. No one takes responsibility for their own actions anymore. People who are of wayward lifestyles seek to change a stone that has sat for longer than governments have existed. That stone that is marriage between a man and a woman is the natural order of things in regards to family making and sexual relations. It’s just downright wrong that gays want to fight that and go for special rights. Maybe if they chose to live the correct way then they might be able to marry without a fight. No one in this society wants to hear the truths anymore, but I’ll say it on here. God created us all, marriage included. He created this world and everything in it. No one believes in this basic knowledge because we’re all ignorant and foolish. Why do we have so much crime, so much racism, so much of this and that?? Blame our decline of morality and love for each other, that’s why. We have left what is right for what is wrong. If people don’t like that then that’s fine but that’s the real truth of it all and you can’t bind that with black tape or lies and government intervention.

Stl supporter May 1, 2009 9:55AM CST: One of life’s purposes is to learn to be authentic about who you are. I applaud all those who have the courage to go on this path of discovery. It is not an easy one. Many get sidetracked or co-opted by various groups, religions or other forces along the way. In so doing, they do not end up thinking for themselves. Increasingly, we live in a society where people are learning more about who they are and consequently also learning the importance of being true to who they are or being authentic.

I support anyone who genuinely arrives at a position after thoughtful consideration. I am impressed by much of the thoughtful dialogue on this site. Let’s not condemn those who are being genuine and authentic when they say who they are, identifying as gay or lesbian is not a lifestyle, it is WHO they are! Being an avid sportsman is a lifestyle choice! Being heterosexual is not a lifestyle choice either. It is simply reality for those of us who happen to be heterosexual.

Those who are confused need to do some research and not simply rely on what someone else stated as truth.

Armyvet830206 May 1, 2009 10:02AM CST: One more thing. I don’t think Mr. Donius really gets it. Most of us, myself included, don’t really give a darn rat’s tootin’ about his orientation. He should just try not to become part of a fascination of trying to change a stone that is far more important than what he and his brethren consider their right to do.

Dirtyd May 1, 2009 7:49PM CST: Could not agree more with Zarella. Marriage, since the beginning, meaning the biblical beginning of mankind, that is to say the creation of man, since then and up to now, marriage has been defined as the union of one man and one woman. While those who choose to live outside these parameters are well within their rights to do so, they cannot and should not be allowed to rewrite the definition of marriage, no more than I as a heterosexual should be allowed to tell them how to live their lives.